Touch/Tag Rugby League TTRL

[Hela Wigmen]

20 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said:

Wish they`d call it Touch Rugby League. Suppose it`s consistent with St. Helens RFC.

Is "Wide to West" the name of something? What does it mean?

Probably because, y’know, that name has been used elsewhere and there would be issues around it. 

It is in reference to the commentary from Eddie Hemmings when, with zero seconds on the clock and the hooter already sounded, after a load of expansive rugby Dwayne West broke free down Bradford’s right to pass inside to Chris Joynt to send Saints to an Old Trafford appearance and a subsequent win over Wigan.

Edited October 29, 2020 by Hela Wigmen

[unapologetic pedant]

14 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Probably because, y’know, that name has been used elsewhere and there would be issues around it. 

It is in reference to the commentary from Eddie Hemmings when, with zero seconds on the clock and the hooter already sounded, after a load of expansive rugby Dwayne West broke free down Bradford’s right to pass inside to Chris Joynt to send Saints to an Old Trafford appearance and a subsequent win over Wigan.

I like it - bit of history. I remember seeing a lad in the crowd at Knowsley Road with a sign saying "Saints 75 Pies 0". That could be the buzz-phrase for a St. Helens Tag RL initiative.

[The Rocket]

8 hours ago, Hela Wigmen said:

https://www.saintsrlfc.com/2020/10/29/wide-to-west-touch-rugby-competiton/

We lead, others follow. 

Hela, who are the players in that great action shot from the above link.

[Hela Wigmen]

Just now, The Rocket said:

Hela, who are the players in that great action shot from the above link.

Leon Pryce of Bradford in the navy, the furthest Saints player from the ball looks like Dwayne West, then Anthony Sullivan with his arms aloft and Chris Joynt with ball in hand. 

[The Rocket]

Just now, Hela Wigmen said:

Leon Pryce of Bradford in the navy, the furthest Saints player from the ball looks like Dwayne West, then Anthony Sullivan with his arms aloft and Chris Joynt with ball in hand. 

Fantastic, thanks. 

[The Rocket]

NRL affiliated OzTag had a tournament at Coffs Harbour on the weekend, about 140 teams, Bill Harrigan who runs it said there would have been 250 but for the virus. They had a few highlights on the news, a team out of Fairfield Sydney won the over 30`s, looked like they were all of Vietnamese background, and they were throwing the ball round like Harlem Globetrotters, they interviewed the losing Captain, I think from Tamworth? he was absolutely knackered and he said they were way too quick and evasive for him. I was just really pleased to see the game reaching into communities that mightn`t have the greatest representation in the tackle version of the game.

P.S. Harry and Eddie, I don`t think the team mentioned double as the Vietnamese National RL team either.

[unapologetic pedant]

On 07/09/2020 at 12:15, unapologetic pedant said:

There will be an opportunity to observe our Northern Hemisphere Tag predicament if the "Tag Rugby World Cup" goes ahead in August next year as scheduled in Limerick. 

 

The Tag WC due for Aug 2021 in Limerick has been postponed until Jul/Aug 2022. The way things are going the RFL might regret not making a similar early decision on RLWC.

[The Rocket]

https://www.rugby-league.com/article/57461/try-tag-rugby-league-returns-to-action

Am I imagining this or are the RFL making a concerted effort to associate themselves with `Try Tag Rugby` with talk of partners and affiliations and being promoted under a main story on their webpage. They are even calling it Try Tag Rugby League, no confusion about it`s origins there !! I think they also mention a map where you can find the nearest competition and `taster` sessions for those who would like just to try it first before committing, great idea. Well done RFL.

Edited December 5, 2020 by The Rocket

[unapologetic pedant]

10 hours ago, The Rocket said:

https://www.rugby-league.com/article/57461/try-tag-rugby-league-returns-to-action

Am I imagining this or are the RFL making a concerted effort to associate themselves with `Try Tag Rugby` with talk of partners and affiliations and being promoted under a main story on their webpage. They are even calling it Try Tag Rugby League, no confusion about it`s origins there !! I think they also mention a map where you can find the nearest competition and `taster` sessions for those who would like just to try it first before committing, great idea. Well done RFL.

I had been intending posting on this theme, so you`ve spared me the bother of finding the dedicated thread. Despite being a little irascible you have your uses, Mr. Rocket.

On the latest TTR YouTube video, posted in August, amid the customary "Tag Rugby" talk there were two mentions of Rugby League. One comparing the style of play with "Standard Rugby League". Also the graphics were of two teams, one with a blue chevron on white background, the other with irregular red (cherry) and white hoops. Like Wigan v Saints at Wigan.

So along with the cited RFL article things seem to be moving in a positive direction.

At the moment though these are only straws in the wind. When things get back to normal it would be good to see the RFL and TTR building their relationship, ideally to full coordination. Rules, regulations, terminology.

I still think League Tag is crucial to bringing together Tackle RL with Oztag/TTR, particularly in non-heartland areas. When they resume playing fixtures the Broncos, Skolars, and any London RL club with access to full-size pitches and goalposts really are missing a trick in not reaching out to all their local TTR players. They could invite female players to form two League Tag teams to play demonstration precursors to their Tackle games.

Not sure what`s happening in Ireland at the moment. Connecting Tag RL with Tackle RL there will be a harder nut to crack. I honestly think a typical Irish Tag player could accidentally happen upon an NRL TV game and think "Ooh! that looks a bit like Tag Rugby. They`ve pinched our game, and added tackling".

[The Rocket]

12 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

I had been intending posting on this theme, so you`ve spared me the bother of finding the dedicated thread. Despite being a little irascible you have your uses, Mr. Rocket.

On the latest TTR YouTube video, posted in August, amid the customary "Tag Rugby" talk there were two mentions of Rugby League. One comparing the style of play with "Standard Rugby League". Also the graphics were of two teams, one with a blue chevron on white background, the other with irregular red (cherry) and white hoops. Like Wigan v Saints at Wigan.

So along with the cited RFL article things seem to be moving in a positive direction.

At the moment though these are only straws in the wind. When things get back to normal it would be good to see the RFL and TTR building their relationship, ideally to full coordination. Rules, regulations, terminology.

I still think League Tag is crucial to bringing together Tackle RL with Oztag/TTR, particularly in non-heartland areas. When they resume playing fixtures the Broncos, Skolars, and any London RL club with access to full-size pitches and goalposts really are missing a trick in not reaching out to all their local TTR players. They could invite female players to form two League Tag teams to play demonstration precursors to their Tackle games.

Not sure what`s happening in Ireland at the moment. Connecting Tag RL with Tackle RL there will be a harder nut to crack. I honestly think a typical Irish Tag player could accidentally happen upon an NRL TV game and think "Ooh! that looks a bit like Tag Rugby. They`ve pinched our game, and added tackling".

That article was far too pointed to be an accident. Apart from the blaring headline 'TRY TAG RUGBY LEAGUE " which 12 months ago could just as easily read `TRY TAG RUGBY`,  every where else throughout the article where ever Try Tag Rugby was mentioned the word League was never far behind, even if it was only used in it`s form as another word for `competition`. We know from having corresponded with the bloke who runs the TryTag Rugby franchises that he uses that term only so as to widen the appeal of his offering, fair point, especially since a lot of his business is run out of union dominated regions.

The prospect that RL clubs, where ever they may be, you used London as an example, could tap into local Touch/Tag competitions to form weekend League Tag teams would seem a natural fit. Toes may be trodden on though if TryTag Rugby comps are franchised, but I`m sure that could be sorted. It`s a golden opportunity.

Anyway I have to admit I was cock-a-hoop when I saw the article, 'straws in the wind` as you say and these things have to become part of the vernacular, but at least heading in the right direction.

[unapologetic pedant]

On 05/12/2020 at 22:46, The Rocket said:

That article was far too pointed to be an accident. Apart from the blaring headline 'TRY TAG RUGBY LEAGUE " which 12 months ago could just as easily read `TRY TAG RUGBY`,  every where else throughout the article where ever Try Tag Rugby was mentioned the word League was never far behind, even if it was only used in it`s form as another word for `competition`. 

Rightly or wrongly I associate administrative competence with the ability to provide accurate information in grammatically correct English. Or at least to have the aspiration to get things right as a defining characteristic. I have rarely seen an error-free article on the RFL website. In the one cited we had "Despite their being no fixtures...", and "Coventry, Leamington, Spa, Leeds". It doesn`t inspire confidence.

The most encouraging phrase was "those who have never played Rugby League before". From this an inference could be drawn that the RFL now want Tag RL to be seen as bona-fide RL, strategically important in growing participation and awareness levels. That is, it could if we have faith in the writer and the organisation he/she works for. Based on the RFL`s record it could just as easily be an aberration, as could the whole piece.

This thread ties in with the one about social media. You mentioned there the potential for Tag RL in schools. The Auckland RL have been running KiwiTag modules in primary schools recently. I doubt if anyone at the RFL, or any RL administrators outside the immediate area will have noticed. There`s the extraordinary success of Monarch Blues Tag in the Cronulla junior league beginning last year. An object lesson, but again probably only locals will be familiar with it.

Everyone in the RL world seems to function in their own corner, with their own terminology, methods, narrow knowledge. The opportunity afforded by the Internet to join the dots, standardize, replicate best practice, seems to have largely passed us by.

Edited December 7, 2020 by unapologetic pedant

[Nate90]

I prefer playing tag to touch, it's hard to play both but in tag you are to kick it below head height and it's slightly easier to make breaks.

[The Rocket]

6 hours ago, Nate90 said:

I prefer playing tag to touch, it's hard to play both but in tag you are to kick it below head height and it's slightly easier to make breaks.

Great to hear from someone who actually plays it, I haven`t played for 30 years, back in the 90`s, but remember there be literally hundreds of people at a park in the Eastern Suburbs of Sydney, Rooster territory, at the competition I was in. At that stage there was no affiliation with the NRL, that was something that would take another 15 years before the penny would drop, that `Hey, there are a lot of people here who probably never followed a  League team in their life, do they know what they are playing is a version of League`. I went along with a mate and his girlfriend, she was of Indian origins, previously she wouldn`t know one end of a football from the other, I`ll never forget the sight of her flying down the wing ball in hand, the whole extended family are dedicated Manly Sea Eagles followers now.

Back to what you are saying, I agree the ability to make breaks is essential, it`s part of the whole excitement of all the different versions of League, not enough in tackle if you ask me these days, broken field running , someone being chased by someone else are all things that people love to watch and are fun to be part of. One question though, why the rule about keeping the kick below head height ? Anyway thanks for your contribution it`s great to have someone actually involved contribute, otherwise we would never know the details like you describe above. Regards Rocket.

 

[HarrogateKnights]

7 hours ago, The Rocket said:

Great to hear from someone who actually plays it, I haven`t played for 30 years, back in the 90`s, but remember there be literally hundreds of people at a park in the Eastern Suburbs of Sydney, Rooster territory, at the competition I was in. At that stage there was no affiliation with the NRL, that was something that would take another 15 years before the penny would drop, that `Hey, there are a lot of people here who probably never followed a  League team in their life, do they know what they are playing is a version of League`. I went along with a mate and his girlfriend, she was of Indian origins, previously she wouldn`t know one end of a football from the other, I`ll never forget the sight of her flying down the wing ball in hand, the whole extended family are dedicated Manly Sea Eagles followers now.

Back to what you are saying, I agree the ability to make breaks is essential, it`s part of the whole excitement of all the different versions of League, not enough in tackle if you ask me these days, broken field running , someone being chased by someone else are all things that people love to watch and are fun to be part of. One question though, why the rule about keeping the kick below head height ? Anyway thanks for your contribution it`s great to have someone actually involved contribute, otherwise we would never know the details like you describe above. Regards Rocket.

 

The only thing I can think of it limits the liklihood of collisions if I put up a spiral bomb as it dropped most people that play the sport haven't played league (well not in the UK) so it could help that way. 

[unapologetic pedant]

15 hours ago, Nate90 said:

I prefer playing tag to touch, it's hard to play both but in tag you are to kick it below head height and it's slightly easier to make breaks.

This is one of the key differences between Oztag and League Tag. In Oztag kicks must be no higher than the shoulder, but no such restriction applies in League Tag.

I share the preference for Tag over Touch. There`s an authentic ruck structure in Tag which ensures the mode of play is closer to Tackle RL.

On and off the field Touch has taken on a life of its own. There are hints of basketball or handball in the play. In purely RL terms it can seem more like a training drill than a competitive game, which neatly brings it back to its roots at South Sydney juniors.

[unapologetic pedant]

52 minutes ago, HarrogateKnights said:

The only thing I can think of it limits the liklihood of collisions if I put up a spiral bomb as it dropped most people that play the sport haven't played league (well not in the UK) so it could help that way. 

In League Tag the single general-play kicking restriction is a ban on bombs, which are defined as aimed at gaining time for chasers and putting pressure on the receiver, rather than gaining distance. I`m not 100% sure whether this ban applies to open-age, but it definitely does in the younger grades. In all grades chasers are not permitted to challenge for the ball, the space where a kick comes down belongs to the receiver. 

What constitutes a bomb could be a subjective judgement. Ultimately it relies on the ref knowing it when he sees it. And applying the same "safety is paramount" principle that governs the rules on contact.

[jacobus]

Fighting the league battle down in the Midlands through touch is a lonely battle. 

Union dominates and despite the rules essentially being rugby league the governing bodies are working more with the RFU (and a recent partnerhsip with London Irish). 

How different to Oz where the touch game seems embedded within the NRL. 

Maybe if the NRL does ever gets its mitts on Superleague we might be able to see that repeated in this hemishpere. 

One thing for sure is that touch is a brilliant game where families can play together with minimal injury risk. It improves fitness and handling and we should be trying to work with it in rugby league. 

[The Rocket]

56 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said:

On and off the field Touch has taken on a life of its own. There are hints of basketball or handball in the play. In purely RL terms it can seem more like a training drill than a competitive game, which neatly brings it back to its roots at South Sydney juniors.

On a thread a while back on the future of the game a poster asked `' why has League gone backwards " in your part of the world, it said there was no point blaming the media or the public, we have to perhaps look at the game itself and ask why it hasn`t captured the publics imagination and gained new fans. It`s not like League is invisible, as the poster said most people would be aware of League in your country, in fact at some point most people would have seen a game, so why haven`t they become followers. The failure of expansion clubs probably provide evidence of this failure.

I`ve been thinking about this for quite a while now and was considering starting a thread about it. There has been plenty of threads about where the game should be in 5, 10, 50  years, largely concentrating on geographics, but nothing about the nature or style of the game itself. An article in todays paper only confirmed my recent thoughts, apparently there is a large lawsuit brewing in your part of the world revolving around concussions amongst former players in rugby union. I think we are only going to hear more of this sort of thing. In our part of the world the decline in youth participation is masked by the rise of Islander and Maori participation.

Anyway getting back to your quote above, " with hints of basketball or handball", I do wonder whether that  this is the direction that League should think about heading towards, you will understand my hesitation in starting a thread on this topic, as I imagine that it may well go down like the proverbial ` lead balloon` in most quarters. The poster I mentioned before talked about planning for what future fans want in 5, 10 years, as I see it, one of the greatest threats to attracting the next generation is competition from the frenetic excitement provided by video games, how do we compete with that ? the recent SLE GF may have been gripping for traditional fans but is it going to capture new fans ? 

All this is purely hypothetical, but I do wonder whether whether a type of `throw it around `, `ad-libbing` dare I say frenetic type of game should be where League is heading. This was another reason why i bought up the idea of the smaller ball recently, as I thought it would facilitate the off-load, you could even say the `charge down ` rule change could have similar consequences. Two areas where I  know you will respond is, 1) why can`t players be taught to off-load more, and 2) where does this leave the tackle. With regard the first question, I`m talking about going further than adding one or two extra off-loads per set, I`m talking about a more frenetic throw it around game. The tackle, well there will still be tackles.

Any way I throw this out there, and as I say it is pure conjecture, but as I said we here so much about the future of the game and where it may be played, but how will it be played if we are going to engage new fans and future generations who are going to have a much higher bar in what they consider exciting.

 

[unapologetic pedant]

17 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

 

Anyway getting back to your quote above, " with hints of basketball or handball", I do wonder whether that  this is the direction that League should think about heading towards, 

Just on this narrow point, I would say no. Too much ball movement can be as vapid as too little. Variety and depth are what we should be seeking. In Touch the ball is incessantly pinged about, but it`s unsatisfying to watch. There`s barely any role for defence.

League Tag has the right balance. It offers everything from the Tackle game bar tackling and offloading. Consequently there are different types of games, high-scoring, low-scoring, open, tight, depending on the abilities and styles of the teams. Plus there are additional skills unique to it, like how to effect the tag or hip-swivelling evasion techniques.

[unapologetic pedant]

11 hours ago, The Rocket said:

 At that stage there was no affiliation with the NRL, that was something that would take another 15 years before the penny would drop, that `Hey, there are a lot of people here who probably never followed a  League team in their life, do they know what they are playing is a version of League`. 

 

To amplify the description of Monarch Blues Tag in the Cronulla-Sutherland junior league as an "object lesson". -  When metropolitan League Tag was launched in 2019, building on the success in NSW Country, it began with 116 teams 89 of whom were in the Shire. This disproportionate figure connotes a considerable degree of research and planning. 89 teams of Tag players, overwhelmingly girls, do not materialize out of thin air simply because the NSW RL announce the start of a competition.

The League must have sounded out and registered existing Oztag players in the area, and worked with the local clubs to ascertain latent demand among girls to play RL who didn`t want (or whose parents didn`t want) the contact. And since resources are finite they decided to initially target one area. Perhaps clubs and families in the Shire were deemed to be better financially placed to match the League`s investment than those in other parts of Sydney where RL is strong.

I hate to put a lid on your ebullient reaction to the RFL website piece, but they are a zillion light years away from emulating this sort of enterprise. I would judge their attitude to Tag as still one of afterthought and lip service.

In relation to the burden of your most recent post, it`s worth reiterating why I write a lot on this topic. - I`m convinced it`s vital to the future of RL. The fanbase of any sport is subject to natural erosion since not everyone with parents who are fans will innately have the same predilections. New fans with no previous familial involvement have to be created just to stand still. In RL where are these going to come from?

In the UK it strains credulity to think they will come via media coverage. For affiliation to grow through Tackle RL participation, we will have to somehow buck all the societal trends against playing contact sports. The chances of that are remote. So unless we embrace and integrate non-contact versions, we are just accepting managed decline.

[The Rocket]

2 hours ago, jacobus said:

Fighting the league battle down in the Midlands through touch is a lonely battle. 

Union dominates and despite the rules essentially being rugby league the governing bodies are working more with the RFU (and a recent partnerhsip with London Irish). 

How different to Oz where the touch game seems embedded within the NRL. 

Maybe if the NRL does ever gets its mitts on Superleague we might be able to see that repeated in this hemishpere. 

One thing for sure is that touch is a brilliant game where families can play together with minimal injury risk. It improves fitness and handling and we should be trying to work with it in rugby league. 

Great response, damn shame to see it like that though, I was exchanging posts with `Man Of Kent` recently and he was relating how he plays in an 02 Touch comp where he lives, that is the sponsor of the England union team I assume, he too also said that union was all over Touch where he lives. Madness. I bought this up with a Rugby League journalist in your part of the world and his words to me were, it was `probably 20 years too late` and `that ship might have already sailed`. Unbelievable. Still wouldn`t stop RL clubs from approaching Touch/ Tag players about joining League Tag competitions.

Either way I don`t believe it is too late, I just think the RFL need to make a concerted effort, these forms of the game should become free advertising for RL where ever they are played, imagine if all the very best players from these competitions where chosen to play in representative fixtures run by Rugby League, especially as high profile as a World Cup. Union can never use these forms of the sport at a high profile representative level, they are too obviously League like. I don`t think it`s too late for League to `head them off at the pass` to coin a phrase. We just have to exploit unions weakness in this, and their weaknesses are 1) they are playing a version of our game, and 2) they can never really take it anywhere but to a local level because to take it any higher than that may involve media coverage which will only invite comparisons and ridicule to their game. We must exploit this vulnerability.

Pedant tells me the Touch/Tag World Cup is ostensibly a union dominated tournament with far more union jerseys on display than League, well why aren`t we playing a League match at that venue or a venue nearby at the time this tournament is held, free admission to all participants. Why don`t we invite the top 16 teams to participate at our World Cup. Touch/Tag could have a World Championship for all nations who play every four years and every other four years their best 16 teams could play at our World Cup.

Any way mate sorry about the diatribe, thanks for the post, your last sentence exemplifies why we can`t give up on this without a fight.

 

[jacobus]

Dont be too disheatened though. 

I live less than an hour train ride out of central London and our training has Wire, Rhinos, Catalans and Widnes jerseys regularly there. 

The issue surrounds having to play at union venues and be part of their infrastructures as there is nothing for league in the area. 

I am going to go to the touch Euros (they have been cancelled due to Covid) and let's then see if there is more league or union take up. 

 

The latest set of touch laws for 2020 and beyond are much more aligned to league. 

 

https://www.englandtouch.org.uk/play/how-to-play/the-rules/

[The Rocket]

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/rugby-dementia-link-leads-to-calls-for-collision-rugby-to-be-banned-in-schools/ar-BB1bNBtm?ocid=msedgntp

Interviewed in this article is a headmaster from a Rugby ( union ) school who have banned `collision` rugby from their curriculum and replaced it with what he calls " touch rugby ", I wonder how the boys are going with the play-the -ball, six tackle sets and all that room with the 10 metre rule, they won`t know themselves, it must feel like their playing a completely different sport.

Now I just wonder what that school would have done if they couldn`t have reverted to a game that had invented these rule changes, who knows, they might have had to play soccer. Heaven forbid.

I was saying earlier that there should be a concerted push to get TTRL into schools, it`s fun, it`s easy to play and it`s safe and it`s like Rugby League. Well wouldn`t that be typical if f****** union get the jump on us and start introducing it into their schools and call it `Touch Rugby`. Ar$e in gear RFL.

[unapologetic pedant]

20 hours ago, jacobus said:

 

The issue surrounds having to play at union venues and be part of their infrastructures as there is nothing for league in the are

The latest set of touch laws for 2020 and beyond are much more aligned to league. 

 

https://www.englandtouch.org.uk/play/how-to-play/the-rules/

Anyone who deems it pedantic to insist that RL players should play the ball with the foot ought to read the Touch laws. Wanting players to step over the ball, and calling it a "Rollball" rather than a Play-the-Ball, is not accidental. It`s part of the laundering process whereby Union appropriates a format originating in League and presents the pristine product as its own. The terrible irony in the UK is that the RFL, by allowing its players to step over the ball, have aligned the Tackle RL PTB  with the England RU Touch Rollball.

Touch has probably bolted irretrievably into the RU paddock. If the RFL are to finally recognise the value in owning non-contact forms, their task now is to ensure Tag doesn`t go the same way.

Most RL structural weaknesses can be traced to 1895. Our clubs have long histories of myopically seeing RL as professional "Rugby". When a club`s fanbase was simply the local community at leisure, the owners were indifferent to participation rates. Perfectly content that Union should dominate their local schools, complacent in the assumption that those who played either Union or nothing at school would still pay to watch the local pro League club since it was the only show in town.

Their horizon has always been the short-term bottom line. They temporize, cling on to what they have, think only of ways to wring a bit more from the existing fanbase. In the modern era where new fans have to be sought and cultivated they`ve been criminally remiss. They`ve backed up their customary neglect of grass roots Tackle participation with the same dozy ineptitude towards non-contact forms.

[jacobus]

It's hard to be critical of an authority that is clearly underfunded compared to Union. 

My experience was that union clubs and the governing bodies were keen to support our club with fund and equipment thanks to our participation in touch. 

That was down to us covering all ages and our first team, our primary, elite starting 6 was mixed and only played in mixed competitions. 

For them it was a no-brainer to invest in us as we ticked so many boxes and could put players down so many pathways. 

The problem remains our geography and that the only avenues we could open for players was with union clubs locally.