Touch/Tag Rugby League TTRL

[unapologetic pedant]

21 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

Done, woops. This typing business is hard work and sometimes I can`t be bothered to even go up the top there and check the meaning of things. Give me a break, at least I was close spelling wise just not so close as far as the crow flies. Swear I heard Tony Robinson mention them on Time Team.

Have to laugh though at the thought of you scratching your head and thinking `mmmm what could he possibly mean?`

I hope the "Cheddar man" and "candidate" references aren`t lost on you too now. It`s a bit much having to provide follow-up exegesis.

On the subject of genealogy, didn`t you mention somewhere you could trace yours to 14th century Suffolk? That would almost certainly mean at least one of your forebears transgressed English law. Not necessarily anything nefarious, you could be transported for grazing your sheep on the common without wearing a top-hat on a Tuesday in certain circumstances.

[The Rocket]

32 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said:

I thought I`d fended off the Rocket`s fend proposal. I reiterate that this is thinking of Tag in spectator sport terms. 

Tackle RL has potential mass-spectator appeal, but limited attraction as a participation sport. Tag RL has potential mass-participation appeal, but limited attraction as a spectator sport. They should complement each other. What`s good for one is not necessarily good for the other. Plus, a ball-carrier fending off an attempted tag would look, and be, very different from fending off an attempted tackle.

All RU attempts to devise their own version of Tag, either move too uncomfortably close to League, or stray into "It`s a knockout" territory. This is the main cause for optimism that, despite the missed opportunities hitherto, the RFL (and other leagues around the world) can still turn this around if there`s a will. It is happening in NSW with "Monarch Blues Tag", and in Auckland with "Kiwitag".

This conversation is in danger of descending into what has been called on other threads as `bald men arguing over a comb.` By denying the natural instinct to push something away that is reaching for you may only introduce more grey areas. Does it constitute a fend when some one reaches down to brush away a hand reaching for the tag, or was that brush accidental in the motion of running? And why should not this variation of the game have this element of mass appeal, O.k. below the head, we don`t want broken noses, but I don`t think it is going to lose its mass appeal because of the fend. I am starting to wonder whether you may be someone who has an aversion to any physical contact .Don`t touch me.

I have just spoken to my son on this issue and reread your first paragraph, I will concede  the last sentence is key. I am arguing regards to someone reaching for a tag as you are running past them, he perhaps like you are referring to the situation where two players facing each other and one is blocking the others hand attempting to reach the tag. He suggested to me that if I thought the Tags were too easy to grab make them shorter. Smart boy my son. Different length Tags for different levels of League Tag.

Union has away to go before it develops an alternative to Tag League, especially if they want to play on a large stage where comparisons can be made. In their alternative they have introduced a 2m rule,  when that doesn`t work a 5 . RL can`t afford to assume that they will not solve this problem. This is why it is imperative that we get it into our WC. But yes the RFL may have some time to harness its potential, despite some having claimed that `ship may already have sailed `. I certainly would love to see a much larger push than the current half hidden paragraph that we saw in the 2019 RFL Annual Report.

 

 

[unapologetic pedant]

5 hours ago, The Rocket said:

This conversation is in danger of descending into what has been called on other threads as `bald men arguing over a comb.` By denying the natural instinct to push something away that is reaching for you may only introduce more grey areas. Does it constitute a fend when some one reaches down to brush away a hand reaching for the tag, or was that brush accidental in the motion of running? And why should not this variation of the game have this element of mass appeal, O.k. below the head, we don`t want broken noses, but I don`t think it is going to lose its mass appeal because of the fend. I am starting to wonder whether you may be someone who has an aversion to any physical contact .Don`t touch me.

I have just spoken to my son on this issue and reread your first paragraph, I will concede  the last sentence is key. I am arguing regards to someone reaching for a tag as you are running past them, he perhaps like you are referring to the situation where two players facing each other and one is blocking the others hand attempting to reach the tag. He suggested to me that if I thought the Tags were too easy to grab make them shorter. Smart boy my son. Different length Tags for different levels of League Tag.

Union has away to go before it develops an alternative to Tag League, especially if they want to play on a large stage where comparisons can be made. In their alternative they have introduced a 2m rule,  when that doesn`t work a 5 . RL can`t afford to assume that they will not solve this problem. This is why it is imperative that we get it into our WC. But yes the RFL may have some time to harness its potential, despite some having claimed that `ship may already have sailed `. I certainly would love to see a much larger push than the current half hidden paragraph that we saw in the 2019 RFL Annual Report.

 

 

I keep writing non-contact, when actually Tag is officially labelled "minimum contact", since it`s accepted that some accidental contact is unavoidable. The rule is that initiating contact is illegal. If someone is deemed responsible for contact, they are penalised. The reasons are partly technical (it`s easier to outlaw all contact, since allowing some makes it impossible to know where to draw the line), and partly the desire for safety from most of the players.

The "natural instinct to push something away that is reaching for you", is replaced by the evasive skills I mentioned before. That`s the game of Tag, it`s not Tackle. If players want contact, they play Tackle. That, clearly, would be your choice. I suspect you`d like to see the "Big don`t argue" introduced to Netball. And Ballet. (perhaps it`s already a staple of Country NSW Ballet)

I`m looking on from the outside but I doubt that Tag players are any less personally tactile than the average person. You`d have to meet and greet one to test out your aversion theory. 

Viewer appeal is not important in Tag. Whether it`s enjoyable to play is what counts. But for what it`s worth, some of the mid-to-long-range tries in Ladies League Tag more recently, look not dissimilar from those in the Tackle game. The standards (particularly in handling) have improved dramatically leading to more intricate, dynamic patterns. Much more so than in Oztag, where the much smaller pitch and fewer players confine the play.

Edited September 13, 2020 by unapologetic pedant

[The Rocket]

On 14/09/2020 at 06:03, unapologetic pedant said:

I keep writing non-contact, when actually Tag is officially labelled "minimum contact", since it`s accepted that some accidental contact is unavoidable. The rule is that initiating contact is illegal. If someone is deemed responsible for contact, they are penalised. The reasons are partly technical (it`s easier to outlaw all contact, since allowing some makes it impossible to know where to draw the line), and partly the desire for safety from most of the players.

The "natural instinct to push something away that is reaching for you", is replaced by the evasive skills I mentioned before. That`s the game of Tag, it`s not Tackle. If players want contact, they play Tackle. That, clearly, would be your choice. I suspect you`d like to see the "Big don`t argue" introduced to Netball. And Ballet. (perhaps it`s already a staple of Country NSW Ballet)

I`m looking on from the outside but I doubt that Tag players are any less personally tactile than the average person. You`d have to meet and greet one to test out your aversion theory. 

Viewer appeal is not important in Tag. Whether it`s enjoyable to play is what counts. But for what it`s worth, some of the mid-to-long-range tries in Ladies League Tag more recently, look not dissimilar from those in the Tackle game. The standards (particularly in handling) have improved dramatically leading to more intricate, dynamic patterns. Much more so than in Oztag, where the much smaller pitch and fewer players confine the play.

G`day UP, I have just been over in the real world on the TWP thread talking to Kayakman. I have been trying to convince him that he should get in on the ground floor with that organisation. For a bloke who loves the sport as much as him it could be a golden opportunity to be part of something that hopefully one day will be massive. I would love if with some of the stuff we have worked through here and Irish`s contribution on School development it would be possible to put some of it into action.

It`s hard to put it into a short post because you don`t want to sound like your hectoring, but anyway I talked to him about the idea of using TTRL as gateways into the game. When I read about those 10 000 crowds they were getting and the buzz surrounding the TWP it  would seem to be the prime opportunity to get people into these ` mass participation` variants of the sport. 

You should go over and read his description of union teams coming and playing League at half time at WolfPack games. And people were bagging them (TWP) out ! F___ing hopeless. It should be a League followers dream.

Back to what we were talking about, I suppose the TTRL versions of the sport played mid week would seem the best way forward in the short term, Tag League comps could evolve out of that most likely through established RL clubs. Playing like you said before the main game, I think you mentioned ground hire is exorbitant, so that would probably suit that version of the game plus the fact it actually is a fairly close variant of  Tackle League.

Certainly in the short to medium term, with a lack of established RL Clubs across the country, it may be impossible to avoid the TTR franchise system. And perhaps with a stronger relationship between the RLF and the TTR franchisees this relationship could develop in to something that is much more productive to RL and openly recognised as League affiliated and a legitimate part of our sport.

Its getting late and I have other things to do. Speak to you soon.

By the way,  just because my family came from Suffolk doesn`t mean we came out here on a British Gov`t all expenses paid,  fixed term , non refundable working holiday. Thank you. I come from a long line of carpenters ( no Karens ). Debenham, is I believe the name of the Town, with some time spent in Ipswich as well. I plan on visiting one day.

 

Edited September 14, 2020 by The Rocket

[unapologetic pedant]

3 hours ago, The Rocket said:

G`day UP, I have just been over in the real world on the TWP thread talking to Kayakman. I have been trying to convince him that he should get in on the ground floor with that organisation. For a bloke who loves the sport as much as him it could be a golden opportunity to be part of something that hopefully one day will be massive. I would love if with some of the stuff we have worked through here and Irish`s contribution on School development it would be possible to put some of it into action.

It`s hard to put it into a short post because you don`t want to sound like your hectoring, but anyway I talked to him about the idea of using TTRL as gateways into the game. When I read about those 10 000 crowds they were getting and the buzz surrounding the TWP it  would seem to be the prime opportunity to get people into these ` mass participation` variants of the sport. 

You should go over and read his description of union teams coming and playing League at half time at WolfPack games. And people were bagging them out ! F___ing hopeless. It should be a League followers dream.

Back to what we were talking about, I suppose the TTRL versions of the sport played mid week would seem the best way forward in the short term, Tag League comps could evolve out of that most likely through established RL clubs. Playing like you said before the main game, I think you mentioned ground hire is exorbitant, so that would probably suit that version of the game plus the fact it actually is a fairly close variant of  Tackle League.

Certainly in the short to medium term, with a lack of established RL Clubs across the country, it may be impossible to avoid the TTR franchise system. And perhaps with a stronger relationship between the RLF and the TTR franchisees this relationship could develop in to something that is much more productive to RL and openly recognised as League affiliated and a legitimate part of our sport.

Its getting late and I have other things to do. Speak to you soon.

By the way,  just because my family came from Suffolk doesn`t mean we came out here on a British Gov`t all expenses paid,  fixed term , non refundable working holiday. Thank you. I come from a long line of carpenters ( no Karens ). Debenham, is I believe the name of the Town, with some time spent in Ipswich as well. I plan on visiting one day.

 

Serendipitous that you`ve mentioned TWP and Canada. When the Wolfpack were preparing for SL, I scoured the net for signs of the sort of Ontario grass roots activity that would make their progress more sustainable. Came across a club called Georgina Griffins and a piece in their local media headlined "Non-contact Rugby a hit with parents and kids" - well worth a read.

For some reason you can`t get into the Griffins` Facebook page now, but when you could, all their posts were either inviting people to play Tag or promoting TWP and trips to Lamport stadium. They weren`t thinking of having their own Tackle side. Everything this year will have stalled or worse for them, but in general this model seems the optimum for quickly generating an RL constituency.

Of course in areas without TWP as the flagship, a Tag club or group of Tag clubs, would have to at least aspire to establish a Tackle side.

 

 

[The Rocket]

4 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

Serendipitous that you`ve mentioned TWP and Canada. When the Wolfpack were preparing for SL, I scoured the net for signs of the sort of Ontario grass roots activity that would make their progress more sustainable. Came across a club called Georgina Griffins and a piece in their local media headlined "Non-contact Rugby a hit with parents and kids" - well worth a read.

For some reason you can`t get into the Griffins` Facebook page now, but when you could, all their posts were either inviting people to play Tag or promoting TWP and trips to Lamport stadium. They weren`t thinking of having their own Tackle side. Everything this year will have stalled or worse for them, but in general this model seems the optimum for quickly generating an RL constituency.

Of course in areas without TWP as the flagship, a Tag club or group of Tag clubs, would have to at least aspire to establish a Tackle side.

 

 

Should be compulsory reading for the knockers of the Canadian venture. Love the sound of that " next year we are hoping to have 5 or 6 new clubs". Neatly sums up everything we have been saying. Imagine if these kids, some of whom may be put off by the heavy physical contact of Tackle League, could witness a game of what we have been calling Tag League, with its intricacies and tactics, could make quite an impression on a young Tag participant. Or being taken to a game involving The Kangaroos vs. the locals, as Mal Meninga was talking about in the media over here last week, a stop over on their way to Europe.

With regards your last paragraph, mass participation in a sport closely resembling Tackle League could be fertile ground for recruiting players for tackle or even just for cultivating supporters for a professional or semi professional team. Like you said Pro club emblem on one side of TTRL jumper, local club emblem on the other.

 

 

[unapologetic pedant]

On 14/09/2020 at 23:27, The Rocket said:

Should be compulsory reading for the knockers of the Canadian venture. Love the sound of that " next year we are hoping to have 5 or 6 new clubs". Neatly sums up everything we have been saying. Imagine if these kids, some of whom may be put off by the heavy physical contact of Tackle League, could witness a game of what we have been calling Tag League, with its intricacies and tactics, could make quite an impression on a young Tag participant. Or being taken to a game involving The Kangaroos vs. the locals, as Mal Meninga was talking about in the media over here last week, a stop over on their way to Europe.

With regards your last paragraph, mass participation in a sport closely resembling Tackle League could be fertile ground for recruiting players for tackle or even just for cultivating supporters for a professional or semi professional team. Like you said Pro club emblem on one side of TTRL jumper, local club emblem on the other.

 

 

This thread could be a sub-thread of the one about where the game will be in 2070. If we continue to be largely a one-trick Tackle pony, with other forms peripheral, we might not be in great shape. Unless the human body and attitudes change sufficiently to produce many more people ready and able to play Tackle RL safely and happily. As you noted, all the familial and societal trends are in the opposite direction.

Worth saying too that recently in a lot of traditional RL areas the increase in female tackle numbers is masking a decline in male Tackle numbers.

The more I look at the social media of those NSW clubs who integrate LLT with Tackle, the more this seems the best strategy for growth. Delivering RL as a contact/non-contact package in the same clubs. However, the fact that in these clubs League Tag is only for females, that would-be male Tag players only have the option of Oztag away from RL clubs, hints at why Leagues and clubs have been so slow to catch on.

The RL emphasis on physicality and toughness militates against seeing a non-contact form as respectable for men and boys. The juxtaposition of Tackle and Tag for female players is just seen as two versions of the game requiring different skill sets or posing different challenges. There`s an interchange of players and supporters.

For men and boys it would more likely be seen as a contrast between real men playing real Rugby League and pansies only up to playing an inauthentic travesty. I wonder if male Oztag players might be too embarrassed to start Men`s League Tag in an RL club. The consequence is that if males are uncomfortable with heavy contact, or can`t afford to risk injury, we send them away to the clubs of other sports.

[fighting irish]

2 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

This thread could be a sub-thread of the one about where the game will be in 2070. If we continue to be largely a one-trick Tackle pony, with other forms peripheral, we might not be in great shape. Unless the human body and attitudes change sufficiently to produce many more people ready and able to play Tackle RL safely and happily. As you noted, all the familial and societal trends are in the opposite direction.

Worth saying too that recently in a lot of traditional RL areas the increase in female tackle numbers is masking a decline in male Tackle numbers.

The more I look at the social media of those NSW clubs who integrate LLT with Tackle, the more this seems the best strategy for growth. Delivering RL as a contact/non-contact package in the same clubs. However, the fact that in these clubs League Tag is only for females, that would-be male Tag players only have the option of Oztag away from RL clubs, hints at why Leagues and clubs have been so slow to catch on.

The RL emphasis on physicality and toughness militates against seeing a non-contact form as respectable for men and boys. The juxtaposition of Tackle and Tag for female players is just seen as two versions of the game requiring different skill sets or posing different challenges. There`s an interchange of players and supporters.

For men and boys it would more likely be seen as a contrast between real men playing real Rugby League and pansies only up to playing an inauthentic travesty. I wonder if male Oztag players might be too embarrassed to start Men`s League Tag in an RL club. The consequence is that if males are uncomfortable with heavy contact, or can`t afford to risk injury, we send them away to the clubs of other sports.

When i worked in junior schools, pushing ''little league'' the course was 6 weeks long.

At the beginning of week 4 (i think) we introduced tackling skills and played tackle from then on.

That lesson produced a split in the class, in every school we visited, without exception.

Our solution was a simple even if simplistic one.

We wanted the teacher to keep the whole class engaged so we explained that ''little league'' could be played with tackling, for those that wanted to play tackle and without tackling for those that didn't fancy it.

This was how we retained interest and heaps of enjoyment for every kid in the class.

If this simple idea is introduced when the kids are young, there is no stigma attached to choosing the non-tackle game.

Depending on numbers of course, non-tackle can be played by single sex, or mixed groups. 

[unapologetic pedant]

14 hours ago, fighting irish said:

When i worked in junior schools, pushing ''little league'' the course was 6 weeks long.

At the beginning of week 4 (i think) we introduced tackling skills and played tackle from then on.

That lesson produced a split in the class, in every school we visited, without exception.

Our solution was a simple even if simplistic one.

We wanted the teacher to keep the whole class engaged so we explained that ''little league'' could be played with tackling, for those that wanted to play tackle and without tackling for those that didn't fancy it.

This was how we retained interest and heaps of enjoyment for every kid in the class.

If this simple idea is introduced when the kids are young, there is no stigma attached to choosing the non-tackle game.

Depending on numbers of course, non-tackle can be played by single sex, or mixed groups. 

That sounds excellent. I`d be interested to know whether this was on your own initiative. Because it clearly ought to be standard practice.

This year the QLD RL changed to all Tag up to under-6s, only introducing Tackle from under-7s. There`s an article just up on their website detailing the positive feedback they`re getting about it. Primary aim of the change is to not put anybody off at the beginning.

There`s no indication in QLD I can see of continuing to offer Tag from age 7, maybe that will come later. But even those who decide against graduating to Tackle will have gained a direct involvement with the game at a young age. 

[The Rocket]

On 18/09/2020 at 05:57, fighting irish said:

When i worked in junior schools, pushing ''little league'' the course was 6 weeks long.

At the beginning of week 4 (i think) we introduced tackling skills and played tackle from then on.

That lesson produced a split in the class, in every school we visited, without exception.

Our solution was a simple even if simplistic one.

We wanted the teacher to keep the whole class engaged so we explained that ''little league'' could be played with tackling, for those that wanted to play tackle and without tackling for those that didn't fancy it.

This was how we retained interest and heaps of enjoyment for every kid in the class.

If this simple idea is introduced when the kids are young, there is no stigma attached to choosing the non-tackle game.

Depending on numbers of course, non-tackle can be played by single sex, or mixed groups. 

Irish, the LoveRugbyLeague website ran an article in their mailbox this week on Touch and Tag Rugby League, this is the sort of thing that someone like yourself should email to them and any other thoughts you have on the advantages of promoting the various versions of the code. Especially coming from someone with  first hand experience.

[The Rocket]

On 18/09/2020 at 03:03, unapologetic pedant said:

This thread could be a sub-thread of the one about where the game will be in 2070. If we continue to be largely a one-trick Tackle pony, with other forms peripheral, we might not be in great shape. Unless the human body and attitudes change sufficiently to produce many more people ready and able to play Tackle RL safely and happily. As you noted, all the familial and societal trends are in the opposite direction.

Worth saying too that recently in a lot of traditional RL areas the increase in female tackle numbers is masking a decline in male Tackle numbers.

The more I look at the social media of those NSW clubs who integrate LLT with Tackle, the more this seems the best strategy for growth. Delivering RL as a contact/non-contact package in the same clubs. However, the fact that in these clubs League Tag is only for females, that would-be male Tag players only have the option of Oztag away from RL clubs, hints at why Leagues and clubs have been so slow to catch on.

The RL emphasis on physicality and toughness militates against seeing a non-contact form as respectable for men and boys. The juxtaposition of Tackle and Tag for female players is just seen as two versions of the game requiring different skill sets or posing different challenges. There`s an interchange of players and supporters.

For men and boys it would more likely be seen as a contrast between real men playing real Rugby League and pansies only up to playing an inauthentic travesty. I wonder if male Oztag players might be too embarrassed to start Men`s League Tag in an RL club. The consequence is that if males are uncomfortable with heavy contact, or can`t afford to risk injury, we send them away to the clubs of other sports.

Your first three paragraphs and second sentence of your fourth sum up nicely what could be an effective strategy to take the game forward. Men`s participation in League Tag could easily follow the success of witnessing the success of Ladies League Tag. With any concerns about the toughness being outweighed by popularity. And popularity leading to credibility, like we have seen with alternative versions of cricket, initially considered not real cricket, now providing a pathway to other forms or just an expanded player pool. Especially if it can be rewarded with a position at the RLWC.

One of the other prospective things I like about  forming League Tag competitions  is that it may enable kids to stay in or join the game  at those ages where they may normally drop out. They are much more likely to reenter the tackle version  of the code if they continue to play League Tag rather than drop out of the game all together.

James Gordon of LoveRugbyLeague expressed enthusiasm to me at the idea of a national League Tag competition to the point where he said his site would certainly cover and promote it,  possibly sponsor it and even enter a team. 

I like to imagine a scenario where all Rugby League Clubs ran League Tag teams in regional or otherwise competitions. Like you said earlier where in some of the Queensland Ladies League Tag competitions there was often some crossover between the non-tackle and tackle versions of the sport.

Edited September 26, 2020 by The Rocket

[Chris Taylor]

47 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

 

I like to imagine a scenario where all Rugby League Clubs ran League Tag teams in regional or otherwise competitions. Like you said earlier where in some of the Queensland Ladies League Tag competitions there was often some crossover between the non-tackle and tackle versions of the sport.

There was a tag league that had teams connected with clubs, with Featherstone having the official tag team (along with wheelchair, touch, and ladies team).

Teams from Hull, Wakefield, Leeds, Rochdale, Warrington, Leigh, Castleford, Wigan and more. 

[unapologetic pedant]

14 hours ago, The Rocket said:

Your first three paragraphs and second sentence of your fourth sum up nicely what could be an effective strategy to take the game forward. Men`s participation in League Tag could easily follow the success of witnessing the success of Ladies League Tag. With any concerns about the toughness being outweighed by popularity. And popularity leading to credibility, like we have seen with alternative versions of cricket, initially considered not real cricket, now providing a pathway to other forms or just an expanded player pool. Especially if it can be rewarded with a position at the RLWC.

One of the other prospective things I like about  forming League Tag competitions  is that it may enable kids to stay in or join the game  at those ages where they may normally drop out. They are much more likely to reenter the tackle version  of the code if they continue to play League Tag rather than drop out of the game all together.

James Gordon of LoveRugbyLeague expressed enthusiasm to me at the idea of a national League Tag competition to the point where he said his site would certainly cover and promote it,  possibly sponsor it and even enter a team. 

I like to imagine a scenario where all Rugby League Clubs ran League Tag teams in regional or otherwise competitions. Like you said earlier where in some of the Queensland Ladies League Tag competitions there was often some crossover between the non-tackle and tackle versions of the sport.

The "tag league" mentioned in the post following yours is news to me. Who organised it? Maybe the key word is "was". The only regular Tag I`m aware of in the towns he lists is an annual festival in Rochdale. No idea if it`s still going.

From everything I`ve seen, TTRL and Tackle RL in the UK continue to be like ships passing in the night. League Tag, run by clubs who already hire full-sized pitches with goalposts, is what could bridge the gap. We would have Oztag players stepping up to League Tag and Tackle RL players, for various reasons, stepping down to League Tag. So people from traditional Tackle RL backgrounds would be playing with and against the different constituency of TTRL players. All under the RL umbrella, graphically demonstrating that Tag belongs to League.

On a point of clarification, I didn`t mention any crossover in QLD. Ladies League Tag is an NSW phenomenon. As far as I know, all they have in QLD is Oztag. I did refer to QLD RL`s new under-6s Tag programme.

The area I`ve noticed the most interchange between Tackle and LLT is Canberra region, including an interview last year with two players who had LLT and Tackle GFs on the same day.

Today is this year`s GF day in Canberra region. The LLT game was particularly good. The speed of play and skill level are improving all the time.

[The Rocket]

6 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

The "tag league" mentioned in the post following yours is news to me. Who organised it? Maybe the key word is "was". The only regular Tag I`m aware of in the towns he lists is an annual festival in Rochdale. No idea if it`s still going.

From everything I`ve seen, TTRL and Tackle RL in the UK continue to be like ships passing in the night. League Tag, run by clubs who already hire full-sized pitches with goalposts, is what could bridge the gap. We would have Oztag players stepping up to League Tag and Tackle RL players, for various reasons, stepping down to League Tag. So people from traditional Tackle RL backgrounds would be playing with and against the different constituency of TTRL players. All under the RL umbrella, graphically demonstrating that Tag belongs to League.

On a point of clarification, I didn`t mention any crossover in QLD. Ladies League Tag is an NSW phenomenon. As far as I know, all they have in QLD is Oztag. I did refer to QLD RL`s new under-6s Tag programme.

The area I`ve noticed the most interchange between Tackle and LLT is Canberra region, including an interview last year with two players who had LLT and Tackle GFs on the same day.

Today is this year`s GF day in Canberra region. The LLT game was particularly good. The speed of play and skill level are improving all the time.

I assumed that Chris was referring to competitions of the abbreviated versions of Touch/Tag, are you now saying that there is no tag competitions played at all ? I have written a response to him explaining what was meant by League Tag. In fact your second paragraph is very similar if not identical in what I was going to convey to him.

My apologies for misquoting you on the location of the Ladies League Tag Competitions. Your observations of the Tackle and LLT competitions in the Canberra area only confirms this really could be a winner for the code all round.

I watched the Grand Final of the Northern Territory Rugby League this afternoon, defending Premiers and seeking a `threepeat`, I can almost guarantee you would hate that word, Litchfield Bears came from 28 -8 down to just fall short 28 - 26 to Darwin Brothers. Fantastically entertaining game of League with few errors and lots of passing and skill on display. There was a crowd of probably 3-4000 who were very vocal and seemed to be really enjoying themselves. Two of Brothers players were eligible for u18`s and nine were under the age of 21.

The no.4 and no.2 for Brothers  play in the NT afl final tommorrow. The little winger was a special, scored a couple of scorching tries and the no.4 was a whopping big ball playing, barnstorming centre. 

It brings to mind a comment by Phil Gould recently where he said the NRL should be taking more advantage of the young athletes in traditionally afl states and also an advertisement campaign by Melbourne Storm earlier in the year which said , " You can play both Codes you know ". Obviously an appeal to young afl players who may never have thought of having a run in Rugby League before. Pretty smart I thought and judging from the way the couple of dual codists I saw in the NT GF enjoying themselves not a bad tactic either. I know your thinking "well they may have played League first, don`t be so quick to assume they came from somewhere else with your (Aussies) ingrained RL inferiority complex", but I`ll leave that to you to judge.

 I think we both agree however that if you got enough people playing League Tag the same cross over would be bound to occur as well and likely even more so.

 

Edited September 27, 2020 by The Rocket

[unapologetic pedant]

16 hours ago, The Rocket said:

I assumed that Chris was referring to competitions of the abbreviated versions of Touch/Tag, are you now saying that there is no tag competitions played at all ? I have written a response to him explaining what was meant by League Tag. In fact your second paragraph is very similar if not identical in what I was going to convey to him.

My apologies for misquoting you on the location of the Ladies League Tag Competitions. Your observations of the Tackle and LLT competitions in the Canberra area only confirms this really could be a winner for the code all round.

I watched the Grand Final of the Northern Territory Rugby League this afternoon, defending Premiers and seeking a `threepeat`, I can almost guarantee you would hate that word, Litchfield Bears came from 28 -8 down to just fall short 28 - 26 to Darwin Brothers. Fantastically entertaining game of League with few errors and lots of passing and skill on display. There was a crowd of probably 3-4000 who were very vocal and seemed to be really enjoying themselves. Two of Brothers players were eligible for u18`s and nine were under the age of 21.

The no.4 and no.2 for Brothers  play in the NT afl final tommorrow. The little winger was a special, scored a couple of scorching tries and the no.4 was a whopping big ball playing, barnstorming centre. 

It brings to mind a comment by Phil Gould recently where he said the NRL should be taking more advantage of the young athletes in traditionally afl states and also an advertisement campaign by Melbourne Storm earlier in the year which said , " You can play both Codes you know ". Obviously an appeal to young afl players who may never have thought of having a run in Rugby League before. Pretty smart I thought and judging from the way the couple of dual codists I saw in the NT GF enjoying themselves not a bad tactic either. I know your thinking "well they may have played League first, don`t be so quick to assume they came from somewhere else with your (Aussies) ingrained RL inferiority complex", but I`ll leave that to you to judge.

 I think we both agree however that if you got enough people playing League Tag the same cross over would be bound to occur as well and likely even more so.

 

He would have to mean the short form since there is no League Tag. I`m not aware of anything regular outside of TTR and most of their numbers are in the South-East. In the North I`ve detected only desultory signs of Tag activity. And certainly nothing run by the RFL.

The NT Tackle rep sides, male and female, usually go pretty well at affiliated States tournaments. I always wonder about them playing such an exacting game in a climate that`s relentlessly hot as hell in the Football season. Darwin would kill me in under a week, unless I spent most of the time sat in a fridge.

Good guess about "Three-peat". Not keen. Not keen at all. Makes me think of the controversy over the EU trying to stop the Irish harvesting the peat bogs.

If during this thread I`ve appeared to be claiming omniscience and prescience, let me confess that I was also late to notice Tag and its potential. Few years back I was only aware of the aforementioned RFU ludicrous version where the ball has to be passed after the tag. Had also seen coverage of NZRU`s "Rippa Rugby", which is the same.

So, when I spotted TTR online, I assumed it must be the RFU/Rippa game. Imagine my surprise then watching footage of players in London placing the ball, playing it back with the foot, and people talking about dummy-halves and markers. It was a case of "Hello, what have we here"? And when informed how many thousands of participants they had, it became a case of "Why in heaven`s name are we oblivious to this"?

Edited September 28, 2020 by unapologetic pedant

[Chris Taylor]

It was around 2008 > 2010 I believe when the "official" Tag Merit League was introduced between fans of clubs, in which the final was hosted at Featherstone. 

At the beginning of the year, Pete Jones (Now at Devon Sharks), Leon Nightingale and I got the got game affiliated with the RFL - with defined laws of the game and more teams were introduced such as Rochdale who then created the tag festival. Mark at Rochdale then went onto be the chairman of the Hornets too. We also head GB training camps too.

After the final, the RFL decided to take more control over this and Tom Allen at the RFL moved to more weekly tournaments rather than a league system - it then progressed from there as you mention above. 

There were finals at Featherstone, York & Bradford. I know I was personally recognised by the RFL by being awarded young volunteer of the year for the Castleford & Featherstone district. 

It's nice to see that it has evolved  to what it is now and wish I had the time to play, but like a lot of these people involved, our lifes evolve.

[The Rocket]

10 minutes ago, Chris Taylor said:

It was around 2008 > 2010 I believe when the "official" Tag Merit League was introduced between fans of clubs, in which the final was hosted at Featherstone. 

At the beginning of the year, Pete Jones (Now at Devon Sharks), Leon Nightingale and I got the got game affiliated with the RFL - with defined laws of the game and more teams were introduced such as Rochdale who then created the tag festival. Mark at Rochdale then went onto be the chairman of the Hornets too. We also head GB training camps too.

After the final, the RFL decided to take more control over this and Tom Allen at the RFL moved to more weekly tournaments rather than a league system - it then progressed from there as you mention above. 

There were finals at Featherstone, York & Bradford. I know I was personally recognised by the RFL by being awarded young volunteer of the year for the Castleford & Featherstone district. 

It's nice to see that it has evolved  to what it is now and wish I had the time to play, but like a lot of these people involved, our lifes evolve.

Gday Chris , I don`t know if you had time to read the whole thread but general the gist of it was that Touch/Tag rugby is played all over your country and I believe Ireland and is largely not associated with Rugby league. In fact the Tag world cup I have been told is largely associated with union.

The general consensus here is that by getting a version of the non-contact type of the game played at the RLWC would draw attention to the fact that whoever plays Touch or Tag rugby anywhere in the world would know they are playing a game associated with RL. A potentially huge audience.

I saw the award you received when you posted the other day, I must say it is you blokes at the grass roots that are making things happen, not us tapping away on our keyboards. Cheers.

[unapologetic pedant]

On 28/09/2020 at 11:38, Chris Taylor said:

It was around 2008 > 2010 I believe when the "official" Tag Merit League was introduced between fans of clubs, in which the final was hosted at Featherstone. 

At the beginning of the year, Pete Jones (Now at Devon Sharks), Leon Nightingale and I got the got game affiliated with the RFL - with defined laws of the game and more teams were introduced such as Rochdale who then created the tag festival. Mark at Rochdale then went onto be the chairman of the Hornets too. We also head GB training camps too.

After the final, the RFL decided to take more control over this and Tom Allen at the RFL moved to more weekly tournaments rather than a league system - it then progressed from there as you mention above. 

There were finals at Featherstone, York & Bradford. I know I was personally recognised by the RFL by being awarded young volunteer of the year for the Castleford & Featherstone district. 

It's nice to see that it has evolved  to what it is now and wish I had the time to play, but like a lot of these people involved, our lifes evolve.

What happened to all this? If you`re saying that "it`s nice to see that it has evolved" into TTR, I don`t detect any evidence of a connection.

It sounds more that 2008 - 2010, was the window of opportunity to embed Tag RL within Tackle RL and that it was missed, since TTR has subsequently developed a separate life of its own.

[unapologetic pedant]

LLT has been established in Country NSW for quite a while now. Couple of years back NSWRL launched Blues League Tag for Sydney. The Sutherland Shire is the metropolitan area that`s had the most investment. Not sure why, maybe they had the strongest Oztag playing base.

Been looking at the social media of the clubs in the area. Despite Covid, this year Como Jannali Crocs had 12 League Tag teams and 2 Tackle teams in their female section. Many of the other clubs aren`t that far behind. If over the next decade this is replicated across Sydney, it`s almost revolutionary in terms of the social range of RL participants and the effect that has on the number and type of sponsors attracted to the game.

There`s also over-35s Men`s League Tag in the Shire. This too may be pulling in people new to RL. Maybe ex-RU players who still want to turn out. Once they join a club their whole family could be converted.

Sadly, can`t see any of this happening here where the RFL`s vision is terminally of the tunnel variety.

In NZ, there seems no intention, outside of Auckland, to try and grow participation in League clubs with Tag. Leagues like Canterbury and Wellington might one day suddenly notice that there are substantial numbers playing a game that looks remarkably like RL, yet have no connection with their clubs. This was the story in Auckland till they started playing catch-up.

On the Como Crocs Facebook page was a short interview with Kylie O`Loughlin, who is their women`s Tackle coach. Until last year, she was the Canterbury RL`s development officer. This is another reminder of the personnel NZ RL lose across the Tasman. Perhaps Kylie could acquaint her friends back in Christchurch with the success of League Tag at her current club, and recommend they try to emulate it.

Edited October 2, 2020 by unapologetic pedant

[The Rocket]

On 02/10/2020 at 14:24, unapologetic pedant said:

LLT has been established in Country NSW for quite a while now. Couple of years back NSWRL launched Blues League Tag for Sydney. The Sutherland Shire is the metropolitan area that`s had the most investment. Not sure why, maybe they had the strongest Oztag playing base.

Been looking at the social media of the clubs in the area. Despite Covid, this year Como Jannali Crocs had 12 League Tag teams and 2 Tackle teams in their female section. Many of the other clubs aren`t that far behind. If over the next decade this is replicated across Sydney, it`s almost revolutionary in terms of the social range of RL participants and the effect that has on the number and type of sponsors attracted to the game.

There`s also over-35s Men`s League Tag in the Shire. This too may be pulling in people new to RL. Maybe ex-RU players who still want to turn out. Once they join a club their whole family could be converted.

Sadly, can`t see any of this happening here where the RFL`s vision is terminally of the tunnel variety.

In NZ, there seems no intention, outside of Auckland, to try and grow participation in League clubs with Tag. Leagues like Canterbury and Wellington might one day suddenly notice that there are substantial numbers playing a game that looks remarkably like RL, yet have no connection with their clubs. This was the story in Auckland till they started playing catch-up.

On the Como Crocs Facebook page was a short interview with Kylie O`Loughlin, who is their women`s Tackle coach. Until last year, she was the Canterbury RL`s development officer. This is another reminder of the personnel NZ RL lose across the Tasman. Perhaps Kylie could acquaint her friends back in Christchurch with the success of League Tag at her current club, and recommend they try to emulate it.

Good read. If the NSWRL are behind it there is a good chance it will grow. And as we have mentioned before it could work well in conjunction with the nascent womens tackle competitions.

The Sutherland Shire is still the sort of area that prides itself on healthy outdoor Aussie lifestyle image, my wife`s parents live in the area and it still has a very  `white bread `image, beach, footy, barbeques lifestyle. Adam Hills is from the Shire, I`ve heard him reminiscing about kids playing League on the street after school.

Your third sentence of your second paragraph is certainly not beyond the realms of possibility and does certainly seem like an exciting prospect. It does give optimism that the attraction of this version of the code may eventually see its organic growth across the Rugby League world. That might sound like pie in the sky but once established in one area it`s not too big an expectation then for the next suburb or region to put a team together.

As far as your region I did see a long time poster on this forum talking about long term growth prospects for League in England and though while he did mention Disabled Rugby League which of course is  very important but perhaps having limited prospects and also female League which of course is a must, there was no mention of any non-tackle versions of the code. Which is a shame if that is the attitude, especially if we want to reach and engage a broader audience like what`s happening in NSW.

Don`t worry about NZ, Gould`s on the job now with V`landy`s backing, so expect to see some big things happening in the next few years.

Always enjoy your posts on the growth of these and other forms of the code.

[unapologetic pedant]

On 06/10/2020 at 10:26, The Rocket said:

 

As far as your region I did see a long time poster on this forum talking about long term growth prospects for League in England and though while he did mention Disabled Rugby League which of course is  very important but perhaps having limited prospects and also female League which of course is a must, there was no mention of any non-tackle versions of the code. Which is a shame if that is the attitude, especially if we want to reach and engage a broader audience like what`s happening in NSW.

 

The contrast between the RFL`s admirable embrace of Wheelchair RL, and their comparative neglect of Tag RL is striking. They have an unsurpassed record for hapless incompetence and narrow thinking, so those are usually the best ports of call when seeking reasons for their policies. But there may also be a calculation of greater access to public funds with WRL. And maybe more superficial brownie points for "inclusivity".

Which has to be a mistake, given that the number of people potentially "included" by TRL is far higher than WRL. And with that a stronger case could be made for public funding in terms of health and fitness and the social benefits of club membership.

No criticism intended of the approach to WRL. The more RL forms the merrier in terms of growing participation, spreading awareness, building a fanbase.

I don`t know too much about WRL, other than it was invented by the French, and like TRL, a play is complete when a tag is ripped off. The tags are worn on the arm, and there`s a bit of what looks like grappling as the players try to make or deny the tag. Though it`s probably not sufficient to satiate your bloodlust for the fend. Perhaps if they saw Greg Inglis catapulting a disabled player out of a wheelchair with a big "Don`t argue", it might change their minds.

[HarrogateKnights]

We have been playing and involved with X-league for some months now and as soon as we could play instead of standard touch we did. Straight away I noticed the players competitiveness and skill level raise. From a engagement point of view the guys who run X-league are great to chat too and bounce ideas off. 

[The Rocket]

5 hours ago, HarrogateKnights said:

We have been playing and involved with X-league for some months now and as soon as we could play instead of standard touch we did. Straight away I noticed the players competitiveness and skill level raise. From a engagement point of view the guys who run X-league are great to chat too and bounce ideas off. 

Pedant keeps an eye on the various League Tag competitions that have sprung up around the place in Oz and it is proving to be quite popular, especially when run in conjunction with Womens` tackle competitions. In fact he was telling me that the recently concluded Western Australian Mens and Womens Rugby League competition had 7 teams in the Womens tackle and 9 in the Womens League Tag competitions. I had no idea it or the X-League you participate in even existed before this thread was started, I had just assumed people were still just playing Touch and Tag like they were 30 years ago when I played. I think they`re both great ideas for taking Touch/Tag to the next level. Just got to get one of them in that damn World Cup.

[Hela Wigmen]

https://www.saintsrlfc.com/2020/10/29/wide-to-west-touch-rugby-competiton/

We lead, others follow. 

[unapologetic pedant]

57 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

https://www.saintsrlfc.com/2020/10/29/wide-to-west-touch-rugby-competiton/

We lead, others follow. 

Wish they`d call it Touch Rugby League. Suppose it`s consistent with St. Helens RFC.

Is "Wide to West" the name of something? What does it mean?