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A petition to the Rugby Football League.


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#21 shrek

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 04:00 PM

QUOTE (Trojan @ Jul 20 2010, 04:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Companies like Mars do market research amongst their customers all the time. As do most companies (never filled a questionaire in on your way back from Greece Dave?) So why don't the RFL seek the views of its customers? Frightened of getting the wrong answers perhaps.


Haven't we just had a record weekend for attendances? Maybe they are happy with how things are and under the impression a suitable number of "customers" are in agreement.

#22 Dave T

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 04:25 PM

I just don't understand this 'heartlands' title.

As has been pointed out already, why does anybody from the heartlands deserve more of a say or have more rights to the game of RL?

Also, I hate the fact that just because you support a team from SL you are treated like some kind of evil leper, when in fact the majority of fans watch SL, and the majority of teams in Sl are in places that would be classed as 'heartlands'.

Super League absolutely represents the heartlands.

My views on P&R and franchising are often dismissed due to supporting a SL team, yet they are a heartlands team who apparently SL doesn't represent.

#23 Trojan

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 05:18 PM

QUOTE (shrek @ Jul 20 2010, 05:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Haven't we just had a record weekend for attendances? Maybe they are happy with how things are and under the impression a suitable number of "customers" are in agreement.


For the top of SL. What about the rest? Salford, Bradford, Crusaders, Harlequins? Attendences are certainly down in the Championship - nowt to play for except a tick in a box. Which if posts on here are to be believed will mean absolutely nothing when the decsions are taken.
"Your a one trick pony Trojan" - Parksider 10th March 2013

#24 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 05:21 PM

QUOTE (Padge @ Jul 20 2010, 10:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
People don't like it to be known how sh!t and useless their club (not team ) really is in the scale of things. happy.gif


People don't like to be told that the club that they follow is sh!t and useless when in reality they have no obligation to follow a club in the first place. Franchising has created a great deal of bitterness in the sport and it will drive fans away in the long run. You're not going to follow a sport if your not wanted.

That said the petition is pathetic. It makes me laugh when people start them up as if they have the consent of the masses when in reality I'd be surprised if they had the consent of the majority at all.

There are some semi-valid points, I think the game is struggling a lot more than people like to think simply because of Super League crowds. The rest of it is largely nonsense, the game cannot survive as a heartlands only sport and it will eventually get swamped by other much larger and more prestigious sports if it does not offer a viable alternative to them. The same 12/14 teams largely based around small uninspiring northern towns isn't it.

#25 Blind side johnny

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 05:28 PM

QUOTE (rod reddy @ Jul 20 2010, 07:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Agree, as long as the heartlands clubs exclude those formed since the war. They can't call themselves real heartlands can they?



Actually it's a load of old drivel as most posters on here have pointed out. i've supported one of those "excluded" clubs for more than 35 years and, in the past, any sniff of admittance to the promised land of Div 1/SL etc has inevitably resulted in five years of financial misery.

Franchising makes sense but when did sense ever have anything to do with supporting a RL club?


Believe what you see, don't see what you believe.


John Ray (1627 - 1705)

#26 rod reddy

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 05:29 PM

QUOTE (Maximus Decimus @ Jul 20 2010, 06:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There are some semi-valid points, I think the game is struggling a lot more than people like to think simply because of Super League crowds. The rest of it is largely nonsense, the game cannot survive as a heartlands only sport and it will eventually get swamped by other much larger and more prestigious sports if it does not offer a viable alternative to them. The same 12/14 teams largely based around small uninspiring northern towns isn't it.


It's survived for 115 years in those areas. And for the record, I'm not against expansion, I just want a fairer system.

#27 RP London

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 07:23 AM

QUOTE (rod reddy @ Jul 20 2010, 06:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's survived for 115 years in those areas. And for the record, I'm not against expansion, I just want a fairer system.

yes it has but times are changing and they are changing fast.. our company has survived for 125 years but we are quite different to what we were then and we are having to make some quite large changes to stay competetive..

football hasnever been so strong

RU is getting stronger

Cricket has been around a lot longer and yet is struggling now hugley on te county stage hence the introduction of one of hte most radical changes to any sport certainly since 1995's change to summer and probably since the split of the two Rugby codes..

This is a very fair system.. you have to meet certain criteriaor you just dont stand chance.. those teams in it that done meet it are waking a tight rope.. when you get in it you have 3 years safety to get going without the risk of relegation so making it easer to plan... yes i can hear people saying "i bet teams wont get thrown out for not meeting th criteria".. one answer.. shall we wait and see? you cant judge something on presupposed suppositions.. remembering also that it is a graded system.. as long as the top 14 with the highest points total are in then surel we cant ask for a much fairer system. P&R is hardly fair either.. you can spend your way into the top flight by getting ino huge debt.. go bust and drop down with a 10 poitn pentaly but nowt else and then do it all over again.. while cubs try to stay in the bounds of their income and do feck all.. thats hardly fair.
at the moment we have to give it more time.. as has been mentioned the clubs in CCh are far too far off being able to opoen up P&R as was proved in the las 5-10 years up down updown same teams.. it needs to pick them up as well.. lets see what happen in the next round... if people get kicked out, if they pick the right ones to enter etc.. and see if the system of picking is working then rather than scrap it after one round of appointments.

Edited by RP London, 21 July 2010 - 07:25 AM.


#28 skep155

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 08:01 AM

QUOTE (rod reddy @ Jul 20 2010, 06:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's survived for 115 years in those areas. And for the record, I'm not against expansion, I just want a fairer system.


If your not against expansion then why do you call for an immediate end to the evil 'expansionist agenda', and then claim to know that most rugby league fans are entirely happy with the game being a minority sport and that they only want it played along the M62? If your against expansion then why not just come out and say it loud and proud rather than trying to skew your argument to make it look like your for expansion in some unfathomable way? Why do most anti-expansionists claim that they are not against expansion?

My guess is that in most other situations growth and expansion are considered to be inherently good things, and that likewise with their favourite sport, they know deep down that a full scale disavowal of growth and expansion would be a ludicrous position to take, so when they are performing their mental gymnastics that make it seem like Featherstone being promoted and Catalans getting relegated would be a good thing, they need to insert a get out of jail 'I'm not really against expansion' clause in an attempt to prevent their brains exploding from an extreme build up of cognitive dissonance.




#29 RP London

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 08:05 AM

QUOTE (skep155 @ Jul 21 2010, 09:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If your not against expansion then why do you call for an immediate end to the evil 'expansionist agenda', and then claim to know that most rugby league fans are entirely happy with the game being a minority sport and that they only want it played along the M62? If your against expansion then why not just come out and say it loud and proud rather than trying to skew your argument to make it look like your for expansion in some unfathomable way? Why do most anti-expansionists claim that they are not against expansion?

My guess is that in most other situations growth and expansion are considered to be inherently good things, and that likewise with their favourite sport, they know deep down that a full scale disavowal of growth and expansion would be a ludicrous position to take, so when they are performing their mental gymnastics that make it seem like Featherstone being promoted and Catalans getting relegated would be a good thing, they need to insert a get out of jail 'I'm not really against expansion' clause in an attempt to prevent their brains exploding from an extreme build up of cognitive dissonance.

NIMBY

#30 jannerboyuk

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 08:48 AM

QUOTE (RP London @ Jul 21 2010, 08:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
as long as the top 14 with the highest points total are in then surel we cant ask for a much fairer system.

but to be fair to its critics the license system doesnt quite work like that. true a and b clubs will, barring something extaordinary, be in the super league but the c grade is designed to give the rfl strategic options, deliberately low so as many clubs as is reasonable qualify. hence in truth crusaders almost certainly getting less points than widnes but getting in. i personally think that flexibility is essential as a points system can never reveal the full picture but i understand the frustration of c license clubs who don't make it.
PROUD TO BE A MEMBER OF http://www.rugbyleaguecares.org/ and http://www.walesrugb...-wales-for-2013
Predictions for the future -
Crusaders RL to get a franchise for 2012 onwards -WRONG
Widnes Vikings also to get a franchise - RIGHT
Crusaders RL to do the double over Widnes and finish five places ahead of them -WRONG
Widnes Vikings NOT to dominate rugby league in years to come! STILL TO COME

http://www.pitchero.com/clubs/cardiffdemonsrlfc/
http://www.walesrugbyleague.co.uk/

I promise to pay �10 to the charity of Bomb Jacks choice if Widnes Millionaires finish above the battling underdogs Crusaders RL. I OWE A TENNER!
http://www.jaxaxe.co...89/Default.aspx

#31 nec

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 09:24 AM

QUOTE (rod reddy @ Jul 20 2010, 06:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's survived for 115 years in those areas. And for the record, I'm not against expansion, I just want a fairer system.


1. For 100 years union was amateur and therefore we had the pick of any rugby player that wanted to make a (honest) living out of playing the game

2. For 100 years amateur cross-code players outside the traditional heartlands had huge obstacles put in their way by union clubs that prevented the growth of the gam in these areas

3. The last 10-15 years has seen huge and unprescedented growth of rugby league in areas outside of the traditional heartlands

4. The traditional heartlands towns such as Rochdale and Batley have changed beyond all recognition in the past 50 years, anyone that thinks we can continue to do what we have always done to attract support is deluded beyond all possible help

5. The nation has become increasingly centralized around London & the South East whether we like it or not, no longer do we have national newspapers printed in Manchester and therefore the necessity of establishing a credible club or clubs in this area HAS to be a priority

6. International sport makes the media and the wider public take notice in a way that Saints v Wigan simply doesn't; thus building credible Northern Hemisphere opposition for England is a massive priority - Les Catalans Dragons, Toulouse Olympique, South Wales Scorpions and Crusaders RL are a central plank of this policy by offering a career option to sports people that could be professional RL players and represent their country

7. The biggest drop-off of gates are amongst those clubs WITH something tangible to play for such as those at the base of the Championship (Whitehaven, Keighley) and those fighting for promotion from Championship 1 - is the structure below SL ideal? NO Would the situation be immediately improved by reverting to a situation where Leigh, Widnes, Barrow Fev & Halifax were throwing loans after debts at the promised land of promotion as seen for the 30+ years up until franchising was brought in? NO

8. The meeting where ALL RL club chairmen fell over themselves to offer whatever they could to get the Sky 87 million bail-out came as a direct result of the chase for promotion and to avoid relegation. The running down and eventual sale of; Thrum Hall, Watersheddings, Station Road, Athletics Grounds, Fartown and subsequent instability at those clubs stems from poor management and an inability to plan beyond the end of the season.

9. Harlequins are now seeing unprescedented numbers of southern youngsters, grounded in RL, coming through to the 1st team - is this really the time to threaten them with relegation and oblivion

10. My blue-print for a successful structure for Rl in this country is as follows;

Tier 1 - SL1 Saints, Wigan, Wire, Leeds, Hudds, Hull, Hull KR, Bradford, Catalans, Crusaders, Quins, Wakefield
Play each other H/A plus 2 games on the road in targeted areas for development
Promotion/Relegation (1 club) to

Tier 2 - SL2 Oldham, Cas, Fev, Salford, Leigh, Barrow, Widnes, West Cumbria, Sheffield, Halifax, Toulouse, South Wales
Play each other H/A

Tier 3 - Championship Batley, Dewsbury, Keighley, Hunslet, Rochdale, York, Swinton, Doncaster, Ireland, Scotland
Can apply on yearly basis for promotion to SL2 based on results, finances, stadium, spectators and other criteria - this would NOT necessarily mean a club was demoted

Tier 4 - Championship 1 Skolars, Gateshead, Blackpool, Bramley, Hemel, Nottingham, 4 clubs from NCL Premier/RLCN
Can apply on yearly basis for promotion to Championship based on results, finances, stadium, spectators and other criteria - this would NOT necessarily mean a club was demoted

Tier 5 - NCL Prem N and S (including RLC teams such as South London, St Albans, Bridgend etc;)
NCL 1 and 2 unless clubs want to revert to regional leagues

Tier 6 - RLC regional and regional BARLA leagues

Tier 7 - Merit Leagues

This would obviously require a lot of things to go right including; BARLA changing playing season, South Wales, Ireland & Scotland getting investors willing to bank-roll a club at the requisite level and Sky being willing to offer more money for an enhanced product with increased geographical reach.

Must get on with my Open University work now, but this petition really irritated me cool.gif cool.gif
Rugby League is a sport that desperately needs to expand its geographical supporter base and its player base. This imperative means that all other requirements are secondary until this is done.

All power in the game should be with governing bodies, especially international governing bodies.

Without these actions we will remain a minor sport internationally and nationally.

#32 RP London

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 09:27 AM

QUOTE (jannerboyuk @ Jul 21 2010, 09:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
but to be fair to its critics the license system doesnt quite work like that. true a and b clubs will, barring something extaordinary, be in the super league but the c grade is designed to give the rfl strategic options, deliberately low so as many clubs as is reasonable qualify. hence in truth crusaders almost certainly getting less points than widnes but getting in. i personally think that flexibility is essential as a points system can never reveal the full picture but i understand the frustration of c license clubs who don't make it.

would crusader have got less points? not sure if they would have or if they would have ended on the same.

yes true i agree that the liscence grades are there for this.. i should rephrase my post to

"as long as the 14 with the highest liscnece grade get in"

your right that there should be a certain amount of flexibility including weighting on certain aspects ie aspects that can be fixed quicker in one club that those tha are letting down another club etc

to a certain extent i expect that widnes could finnish equal with acouple of the bottom graded clubs in SL and the deciding factor being "you've had 3 years to sort all this out and you failed lets let someone else have a go".. i could see a few go on this matter as well if they arent careful.

#33 Bostik Bailey

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 10:06 AM

QUOTE (Trojan @ Jul 20 2010, 04:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Companies like Mars do market research amongst their customers all the time. As do most companies (never filled a questionaire in on your way back from Greece Dave?) So why don't the RFL seek the views of its customers? Frightened of getting the wrong answers perhaps.

Err actually I was invited (and attended) a focus gruop meeting (call it what you want) by the RFL at the begining of this year. They regularly doe this type of thing all over th country to garner our viewsa nd see where the game needs to go.

Also last year there was an on-line questionaire which I filled in and at the end of that it askes if you would be willing to attend such events.



#34 RP London

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 10:16 AM

QUOTE (Bostik Bailey @ Jul 21 2010, 11:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Err actually I was invited (and attended) a focus gruop meeting (call it what you want) by the RFL at the begining of this year. They regularly doe this type of thing all over th country to garner our viewsa nd see where the game needs to go.

Also last year there was an on-line questionaire which I filled in and at the end of that it askes if you would be willing to attend such events.

i've filled in quite few of those questionaires.. think there was a period i felt like i was doing one a week.. probably one every month at the moment give or take.

#35 amh

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 10:19 AM

QUOTE (RP London @ Jul 21 2010, 11:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
i've filled in quite few of those questionaires.. think there was a period i felt like i was doing one a week.. probably one every month at the moment give or take.


So..the state of the game is all your fault sleep.gif

Whilst I do not suffer fools gladly, I will always gladly make fools suffer

A man is getting along on the road of wisdom when he realises that his opinion is just an opinion


#36 jannerboyuk

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 10:22 AM

QUOTE (RP London @ Jul 21 2010, 10:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
would crusader have got less points? not sure if they would have or if they would have ended on the same.

yes true i agree that the liscence grades are there for this.. i should rephrase my post to

"as long as the 14 with the highest liscnece grade get in"

your right that there should be a certain amount of flexibility including weighting on certain aspects ie aspects that can be fixed quicker in one club that those tha are letting down another club etc

to a certain extent i expect that widnes could finnish equal with acouple of the bottom graded clubs in SL and the deciding factor being "you've had 3 years to sort all this out and you failed lets let someone else have a go".. i could see a few go on this matter as well if they arent careful.

i think probably so but only by the odd 1 or 2 points, which is why the flexibility is needed, a simple table couldnt and shouldnt be more than a rough guide. the reality is crusaders made a certain kind of strategic sense and the fact that the rfl is switched onto that reality is a saving grace of the whole sport, although some people are unable to see that right now.
i think widnes will get in and deservedly so but at the cost of another c license heartland team. i'm not happy with this, i think it is horrible that great clubs like wakefield and castleford are under threat. But then again i dont want to get up at 6am every day to cook 30 people breakfast and clean 10 rooms but looks like we are all out of luck. reality unfortunately is reality.
PROUD TO BE A MEMBER OF http://www.rugbyleaguecares.org/ and http://www.walesrugb...-wales-for-2013
Predictions for the future -
Crusaders RL to get a franchise for 2012 onwards -WRONG
Widnes Vikings also to get a franchise - RIGHT
Crusaders RL to do the double over Widnes and finish five places ahead of them -WRONG
Widnes Vikings NOT to dominate rugby league in years to come! STILL TO COME

http://www.pitchero.com/clubs/cardiffdemonsrlfc/
http://www.walesrugbyleague.co.uk/

I promise to pay �10 to the charity of Bomb Jacks choice if Widnes Millionaires finish above the battling underdogs Crusaders RL. I OWE A TENNER!
http://www.jaxaxe.co...89/Default.aspx

#37 jannerboyuk

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 10:24 AM

QUOTE (Bostik Bailey @ Jul 21 2010, 11:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Err actually I was invited (and attended) a focus gruop meeting (call it what you want) by the RFL at the begining of this year. They regularly doe this type of thing all over th country to garner our viewsa nd see where the game needs to go.

Also last year there was an on-line questionaire which I filled in and at the end of that it askes if you would be willing to attend such events.

i've done quite a few questionaaires even though im not involved in anything more than supporting the crusaders, mainly at a distance.
PROUD TO BE A MEMBER OF http://www.rugbyleaguecares.org/ and http://www.walesrugb...-wales-for-2013
Predictions for the future -
Crusaders RL to get a franchise for 2012 onwards -WRONG
Widnes Vikings also to get a franchise - RIGHT
Crusaders RL to do the double over Widnes and finish five places ahead of them -WRONG
Widnes Vikings NOT to dominate rugby league in years to come! STILL TO COME

http://www.pitchero.com/clubs/cardiffdemonsrlfc/
http://www.walesrugbyleague.co.uk/

I promise to pay �10 to the charity of Bomb Jacks choice if Widnes Millionaires finish above the battling underdogs Crusaders RL. I OWE A TENNER!
http://www.jaxaxe.co...89/Default.aspx

#38 RP London

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 10:26 AM

QUOTE (jannerboyuk @ Jul 21 2010, 11:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
i think probably so but only by the odd 1 or 2 points, which is why the flexibility is needed, a simple table couldnt and shouldnt be more than a rough guide. the reality is crusaders made a certain kind of strategic sense and the fact that the rfl is switched onto that reality is a saving grace of the whole sport, although some people are unable to see that right now.
i think widnes will get in and deservedly so but at the cost of another c license heartland team. i'm not happy with this, i think it is horrible that great clubs like wakefield and castleford are under threat. But then again i dont want to get up at 6am every day to cook 30 people breakfast and clean 10 rooms but looks like we are all out of luck. reality unfortunately is reality.

i agree with that.. although cas and wakefield are under threat becuase they cannot get things sorted in the alloted time given that other clubs have been able to.. and they really should have got up there by now really.. other clubs that are at a similar stage have managed it or have other strengths..

#39 RP London

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 10:26 AM

QUOTE (amh @ Jul 21 2010, 11:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So..the state of the game is all your fault sleep.gif

i would like to think so tongue.gif

#40 amh

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 10:27 AM

QUOTE (RP London @ Jul 21 2010, 11:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
i would like to think so tongue.gif


Claim your 204,010 at the door young man wink.gif

Whilst I do not suffer fools gladly, I will always gladly make fools suffer

A man is getting along on the road of wisdom when he realises that his opinion is just an opinion





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