SoOGB

[deluded pom?]

I think that is very harsh. Whilst some of the media comments from people who should know better are poor, the players very rarely let us down on the pitch.

The fact that the England games didn't sell out a month before the 4N was a disgrace, those tickets should be like golddust in grounds that size.

I'm not talking about England Dave but some made up team that few relate to with any passion and very little, if any, pride.

[Steve May]

It's got as much to do with me as it has with anyone else in this country.

Whether you care about NSW or Queensland is irrelevant to the running of the Aussie SOO competition but whether people from Cheltenham, Winchester or Margate give a Rat's ###### about Yorkshire vs Lancashire is entirely relevant to the running of a UK competition.

Lots of good points there, including a very valid one about the standard of the game itself, but you still haven't really explained why you should care about Yorkshire playing Lancashire so negatively.

Do you really think that anyone in Cheltenham, Winchester or Margate is going to be put off the game because Yorkshire play Lancashire? Why on earth would that be true?

Can you really imagine the conversation going

"Dave, there's a new rugby league club starting up this summer, do you fancy going down and having a shot at it?"

"No mate, I heard that Yorkshire played Lancashire a few weeks ago. Being a Margate lad I felt so excluded that I couldn't bring myself to have anything to do with that game"

Would people really say that? Really?

[Steve May]

Plenty of good points there.

I remember watching the last Yorks v Lancs/Cheshire/Greater Manchester and it was terrible, with a poor turnout and a mediocre spectacle on the field.

A poor turnout, but still higher than England vs France.

Of course, England vs France excludes my best mate from having an interest therefore I think it should be stopped before it damages the game any more.

He's Welsh.

[Steve May]

I think that is very harsh. Whilst some of the media comments from people who should know better are poor, the players very rarely let us down on the pitch.

Unless they're wearing international shirts, in which case it happens more or less every time they play.

[Shadow]

Lots of good points there, including a very valid one about the standard of the game itself, but you still haven't really explained why you should care about Yorkshire playing Lancashire so negatively.

Do you really think that anyone in Cheltenham, Winchester or Margate is going to be put off the game because Yorkshire play Lancashire? Why on earth would that be true?

Can you really imagine the conversation going

"Dave, there's a new rugby league club starting up this summer, do you fancy going down and having a shot at it?"

"No mate, I heard that Yorkshire played Lancashire a few weeks ago. Being a Margate lad I felt so excluded that I couldn't bring myself to have anything to do with that game"

Would people really say that? Really?

My objection to a Yorks / Lancs clash as a replacement for the Magic weekend or Challenge cup is this:

Both the Magic weekend and Challenge cup are inclusive events, one by bringing Rugby League to a new area the other by involving every club in the knockout whereas an artificially created "event" involving two northern heartland counties firstly does little to dispel the myth of Rugby League being confined to T'M62 corridor and secondly will not appeal to these mythical inhabitants of Margate.

Can you imagine these same Kentish men saying "Orright son, d'yer see that rahgby league on the telly the ovver day? i really identify wiv them blokes from Lancashire. I can't wait to get me boots on cor blimey mary poppins" And that's exactly how they talk

By the way if the RFL are trying to appeal to your welsh mate by showing him England / France games then they are even more deluded than The best The beautiful etc , they want to be showing them anyone beating England, that's how to excite the Taffs

Edited July 7, 2010 by Shadow

[Dave T]

Unless they're wearing international shirts, in which case it happens more or less every time they play.

You may see getting beaten by a better team as letting us down, but I have never questioned their effort or commitment. And tbh I was referring to the players as a whole, ie the 34 players involved in the game.

[deluded pom?]

I'm not doubting the players efforts in an England shirt Dave but I'm sure you'll agree that towards the end of the WotR series of games some players were simply going through the motions. This was easily picked up on by the fans hence the dwindling attendances. I just don't believe there's a format out there that satisfies what people, be they players, coaches or fans, are looking for. It's all good and well to suggest these type of games but we know from past experience that they just don't work, for whatever reasons. If they sent a full strength Kiwi team over to play us they still wouldn't fill the chosen stadium. Unfortunately only one match stirs the average RL fan and during the early 2000s this was milked to death with Australia seemingly here every season without fail. Maybe that's one of the reasons we can't even sell out a 25,000 seater stadium even now against Australia. Does familiarity breed contempt?

Edited July 7, 2010 by deluded pom?

[Methven Hornet]

There's about as much consensus as the England shirt thread...

The problem with any game like this - especially if it is to be used as a test trial - is that the English game has a limited number of sufficiently talented players. If a top star cries off or doesn't give his all then he knows he will still make the national team. Contrast that with the Australian situation where players are desperate to play Origin, knowing that any absence will give their place to a rival.

[Methven Hornet]

Origin; the place from where someone comes.

Castleford and Fev are towns in their own right, yes they may be in the metropolitan borough of Wakefield but we're talking 'roots' here just as Leigh is not really 'in' Wigan. Players representing their town or city of birth is surely something to be proud of and as a Widnesian I'd be more than interested seeing Richie (if selected) representing our town just as the Oldham folk would be of Sinfield and Eastmond.

As for probs vs possibles, not interested, who would you shout for? and the east/west thing where do you draw the line? (don't say the pennines, means nothing in Wales or down south) For me there already is a town vs city rivalry and I think it would bring out a bit of ferocity in such an encounter.

The Pennines! I was assuming this was an England trial I must admit. The traditional RL is the obvious dividing line; where you continue the divide once you get into the badlands south of there probably isn't that important at this stage given how few England international class players come from the south. It just means that Londoners play in the East of England side, and the Cumbrians in the West as of right. They are not just spirited into a Lancashire or Yorkshire side but have legitimacy. Northerners will know it is Yorkshire v Lancashire/Cumberland, but those in the rest of England have a real stake in the event and aren't alienated.

However, given the lack of commitment from all concerned, any SoO scheme is probably doomed before it begins.

[Dave T]

I'm not doubting the players efforts in an England shirt Dave but I'm sure you'll agree that towards the end of the WotR series of games some players were simply going through the motions. This was easily picked up on by the fans hence the dwindling attendances. I just don't believe there's a format out there that satisfies what people, be they players, coaches or fans, are looking for. It's all good and well to suggest these type of games but we know from past experience that they just don't work, for whatever reasons. If they sent a full strength Kiwi team over to play us they still wouldn't fill the chosen stadium. Unfortunately only one match stirs the average RL fan and during the early 2000s this was milked to death with Australia seemingly here every season without fail. Maybe that's one of the reasons we can't even sell out a 25,000 seater stadium even now against Australia. Does familiarity breed contempt?

Agree with much of it, but sticking to the Origin concept for now.

The first game back in the SL era was at Headingley which attracted a 10k crowd and was very enjoyable.

Based on that they decided to make it a home and away series the year later. The first game at Wigan was played in front of around 7k, despite the players going at it (including a huge brawl in a scrum). Not sure about the 2nd game can't remember it.

The next year they went back to one game, and played it at Odsal. Yorks battered Lancs and they sacked it off.

The organisation was poor, and it wasn't given a chance by the RFL. Had they played the Lancs game at Warrington or Widnes for example, a 7-10k crowd would have created a good atmosphere based on the RL that was provided.

Doncaster or similar would do the same in Yorks.

They made a good start bringing it back, but played it at completely wrong venues before giving it time to grow after a very positive first year.

Edited July 7, 2010 by Dave T

[Joe Shep]

The next year they went back to one game, and played it at Odsal. Yorks battered Lancs and they sacked it off.

I remember that game. Lancs still had their 'star' players playing.

Problem was that come the internationals at the end of the year, all of the usual suspects were still in the team* and few of the Yorkshire players made the squad. This made the concept of Yorks v Lancs being used as a test trial completely redundant.

*and we still got beat by the Aussies...

Edited July 7, 2010 by Joe Shep

[Dave T]

I remember that game. Lancs still had their 'star' players playing.

Problem was that come the internationals at the end of the year, all of the usual suspects were still in the team* and few of the Yorkshire players made the squad. This made the concept of Yorks v Lancs being used as a test trial completely redundant.

*and we still got beat by the Aussies...

Yep, I just don't think people bought into it as an individual event, or as a Test trial.

I would like to see the England manager overseeing the whole thing, with some input in selection if required. It also needs to be at least two games. I also think there is more choice in key positions which is worth testing now. In the halves you could have Tomkins and Eastmond vs Pryce and McGuire, and still have Myler and Burrow on the bench. The forwards would also be very interesting, and you could test out the riskier three-quarters who appear to do well at club level, but maybe are a risk at Test level.

[no13benny]

Heartland: featuring players from the historical heartland

versus

Outer Alliance (name variable open to ideas): Everyone else - who like Queensland will start with a chip on their shoulder.

Possible OA team:

1. Clint Greenshields (France)

2. Pat Richards (Ireland)

3. Tony Clubb (London)

4. Jean Phillippe-Baille (France)

5. Dimitri Pelo (France)

6. Thomas Bosc (France)

7. Lee Briers (Wales)

8. Louie McCarthy-Scarsbrook (London)

9. Michael McIllorum (Ireland)

10. Olivier Elima (France)

11. Sebastien Raguin (France)

12. Jamal Fakir (France)

13. Gregory Mounis (France)

14. Ben Fisher (Scotland)

15. Jerome Guisset (France)

16. David Ferriol (France)

17. Gareth Thomas (Wales)

[Steve May]

You may see getting beaten by a better team as letting us down, but I have never questioned their effort or commitment.

You've not seen England/GB play recently then. There's been many times when they've been so abject you have to question their effort or commitment.

[Steve May]

My objection to a Yorks / Lancs clash as a replacement for the Magic weekend or Challenge cup is this:

Both the Magic weekend and Challenge cup are inclusive events, one by bringing Rugby League to a new area the other by involving every club in the knockout whereas an artificially created "event" involving two northern heartland counties firstly does little to dispel the myth of Rugby League being confined to T'M62 corridor and secondly will not appeal to these mythical inhabitants of Margate.

Can you imagine these same Kentish men saying "Orright son, d'yer see that rahgby league on the telly the ovver day? i really identify wiv them blokes from Lancashire. I can't wait to get me boots on cor blimey mary poppins" And that's exactly how they talk

By the way if the RFL are trying to appeal to your welsh mate by showing him England / France games then they are even more deluded than The best The beautiful etc , they want to be showing them anyone beating England, that's how to excite the Taffs

Firstly, any Yorkshire vs Lancashire clash is not artificial. If you can't market a snail race between those two you've got problems. And people who say that noone cares about Lancashire really should get along to Old Trafford for a Twenty20 Roses game and see if you still agree.

Second, about your Kentish friend. So he doesn't have much interest in Yorkshire vs Lancashire? So what. It has nothing to do with him anyway. Not everything has to appeal to everyone to be worth doing.

Your argument really is like saying "New Zealand cannot play Australia because people trying to develop the game in Italy will have noone to support"

BTW, the Magic weekend isn't particularly "inclusive". I've yet to see a team from Margate participate in it. I therefore think we should get rid of it as it just perpetuates the myth that rugby league is a game for Northerners.

[Steve May]

Heartland: featuring players from the historical heartland

versus

Outer Alliance (name variable open to ideas): Everyone else - who like Queensland will start with a chip on their shoulder.

Why on earth would they start with a chip on their shoulder? In fact, why would they care at all?

That's the problem with almost all the suggested alternatives to a Roses match. They all depend on artificial constructs that it will be very difficult to get interested in in any kind of long term way.

It's very hard to imagine a 10 year old from anywhere proudly telling everyone he supports the "Outer Alliance"

[Dave T]

Why on earth would they start with a chip on their shoulder? In fact, why would they care at all?

That's the problem with almost all the suggested alternatives to a Roses match. They all depend on artificial constructs that it will be very difficult to get interested in in any kind of long term way.

It's very hard to imagine a 10 year old from anywhere proudly telling everyone he supports the "Outer Alliance"

I agree.

For me, the only really worthwhile England trial match is England v England A. That way you have players who already have the shirt, and 17 who want to outplay their opposite numbers.

As mentioned elsewhere, the halfback and forward battles could be very very good, as we seem to finally have plenty of options there. Play it somewhere sensible, don't worry about the crowd, use it as a trial to name the squad.

I'm sure the likes of Crabtree, Pryce, McGuire etc would love the chance to regain their spot by outplaying their opposite numbers, and it would be interesting to see the hookers head to head, as well as the back rowers where we are spoilt for choice.

[Joe Shep]

I would like to see the England manager overseeing the whole thing, with some input in selection if required.

I think this was part of the problem last time. David Waite oversaw the whole thing, and instead of having two separate squads with their own ideas and tactics etc, it looked like a pre-season trial game with players coming off to allow Waite to have a look at different combinations. This meant that the intensity dropped off in spells and it came across to the public. I can't imagine Queensland or NSW allowing a coach to oversee and provide input to both squads.

[RP London]

I agree.

For me, the only really worthwhile England trial match is England v England A. That way you have players who already have the shirt, and 17 who want to outplay their opposite numbers.

As mentioned elsewhere, the halfback and forward battles could be very very good, as we seem to finally have plenty of options there. Play it somewhere sensible, don't worry about the crowd, use it as a trial to name the squad.

I'm sure the likes of Crabtree, Pryce, McGuire etc would love the chance to regain their spot by outplaying their opposite numbers, and it would be interesting to see the hookers head to head, as well as the back rowers where we are spoilt for choice.

part of the intensity that the aussies get used to in origin is the crowd and hostitlity etc.. you woudnt get that for england v englad a.. there would be a small and not very passionate crowd.. its a case of trying to find something that is to all intents and purposes a trial but where there is a true rivalry for fans and players... players of hte same tame against each other.. crowds getting involved and passionate etc etc..

[no13benny]

Why on earth would they start with a chip on their shoulder? In fact, why would they care at all?

That's the problem with almost all the suggested alternatives to a Roses match. They all depend on artificial constructs that it will be very difficult to get interested in in any kind of long term way.

It's very hard to imagine a 10 year old from anywhere proudly telling everyone he supports the "Outer Alliance"

Kids love star wars and support the storm troopers, they dunno what they're supporting half the time.

I'd support them, cause I'm no where near the heartland. They'd start with a chip cause there's already a divide there, Queensland started with a chip because they were in the minority to New South Wales player/clubs and so would these be.

I think there's a natural bond between clubs and players who are outside the M62 as they know how difficult it is to get any respect. Maybe combined they'd get a bit of respect, well if they beat the heartland anyway. Admittedly the name is a work in progress, but you get the idea from the team sheet. Europe play America in the Ryder Cup, and we still support Europe.

For me it's either this, or England v the Barbarians (a team made up of antipodeans in Super League.) Who would again want to prove a point against the English I'm sure.

Edited July 8, 2010 by no13benny

[Dave T]

part of the intensity that the aussies get used to in origin is the crowd and hostitlity etc.. you woudnt get that for england v englad a.. there would be a small and not very passionate crowd.. its a case of trying to find something that is to all intents and purposes a trial but where there is a true rivalry for fans and players... players of hte same tame against each other.. crowds getting involved and passionate etc etc..

TBH I'm past caring about wanting to get something to emulate the State of Origin for the fans. The miserable bastards don't want it, as has been seen time and again. People can moan about lack of intesnsity all they want, but that isn't the reason they didn't turn up, it is because fans are so obsessed with their own club and not the actual game that they can't see the past their own town.

I do think you would get a crowd of 7-10k and played at Warrington or Widnes would have scope for some growth. I do think it would be an interesting game, and whilst it wouldn't have the passionate rivalry, so what, most fans are only bothered about their local derby anyway.

Imagine a game between:

Widdop 1 Wellens

Briscoe 2 Riley

Bridge 3 Gleeson

Shenton 4 Atkins

Hall 5 Fox

Tomkins 6 McGuire

Eastmond 7 Myler

Graham 8 Crabtree

Roby 9 Lunt

Peacock 10 Lynch

Burgess 11 Westwood

Ellis 12 J Tomkins

O'Loughlin 13 Sinfield

Pryce 14 Moore

Morley 15 Carvell

Scruton 16 Fielden

Wilkin 17 Burrow

That for me would be a far better game than against France, or an All Stars team, and would be a meaningful trial, with 34 top English players up against each other. There would be some great battles there and would give the likes of Fielden and Crabtree a real chance to win their place back, or for Carvell to show he deserves a chance. The halves would also be a great battle.

In terms of the crowd, we only got 7k against France, so it couldn;t be much lower IMHO.

[no13benny]

^But if you're gonna do it, you might as well find a reason to split them on either side, to help sell it, and if it is a great contest, with one team or the other having to show their metal to win, people will find affections naturally, for one or the other, and people are loyal next time around, if they are allowed to be (ie. given some consistency to enjoy/support)

So even if it's all England, lets split them somehow, even if it's East and West, City and town, whatever you want, but to do nothing will make this game as worthwhile commercially as a trial behind closed doors.

[RP London]

TBH I'm past caring about wanting to get something to emulate the State of Origin for the fans. The miserable bastards don't want it, as has been seen time and again. People can moan about lack of intesnsity all they want, but that isn't the reason they didn't turn up, it is because fans are so obsessed with their own club and not the actual game that they can't see the past their own town.

I do think you would get a crowd of 7-10k and played at Warrington or Widnes would have scope for some growth. I do think it would be an interesting game, and whilst it wouldn't have the passionate rivalry, so what, most fans are only bothered about their local derby anyway.

Imagine a game between:

Widdop 1 Wellens

Briscoe 2 Riley

Bridge 3 Gleeson

Shenton 4 Atkins

Hall 5 Fox

Tomkins 6 McGuire

Eastmond 7 Myler

Graham 8 Crabtree

Roby 9 Lunt

Peacock 10 Lynch

Burgess 11 Westwood

Ellis 12 J Tomkins

O'Loughlin 13 Sinfield

Pryce 14 Moore

Morley 15 Carvell

Scruton 16 Fielden

Wilkin 17 Burrow

That for me would be a far better game than against France, or an All Stars team, and would be a meaningful trial, with 34 top English players up against each other. There would be some great battles there and would give the likes of Fielden and Crabtree a real chance to win their place back, or for Carvell to show he deserves a chance. The halves would also be a great battle.

In terms of the crowd, we only got 7k against France, so it couldn;t be much lower IMHO.

i disagree i think it could and would be less than 7k if there was nothing whatsoever riding on it an it was no more than a trial match.. even if th other option is a glorified trial match there is still some glory.. and it could take years for the potnt grow (as origin did) but it is somethign to stick to once decided upon..

[deluded pom?]

You have matter of factly included Widdop, Burgess and Ellis in your selections Dave. I doubt very much that their respective NRL teams would allow them to play in such a match.

[roughyedspud]

England v Other nationalities is the nearest thing,intensity wise, we'd have to state of origin..

it would be a bloody good hit out too for us....far better than putting 50 or 60 on france or wales..