Hull FC under 23s

[Spidey]

Potential is so subjective. Doesn't change the fact that McDermott is Eatons boss so Leeds are essentially picking the Hunslet team

[Saint Toppy]

It's hilarious. Eammon McManus railed against any raise in the cap or marquee allowance and now wants to set up a whole new league so he can pay another inferior team just so they can keep first dibs on them. Yet we are supposed to pretend they are doing this for the good of the player.

If saints are doing this for the good of the player. Let the player keep his registration so he can walk away for first team rugby at any point without a fee.

Eamon voted in favour of the marquee player rule. He only opposed it in previous votes because there was no provision or incentive for club trained players, which there now is.

With regards to the cap he's never said he's opposed to raising the cap, just that now wouldn't be the best time to do it because there is already too much of a gap between the top clubs and the bottom ones. He wants to see a competition where all 12 SL clubs are in a financial position to be able to spend the full cap to create a more even competiton. He thinks that the new TV deal from 2016 will see clubs able to get themselves into this position within a few years so we should then start looking at raising it in order to fend off outside threats from union and the NRL.

 

You still think forcing a 19 year old to leave his SL club (one he's probably been at since his early teens) and go part time is in their interests do you. Forcing them to suddenly find other work, to receive less training & support and train in evenings only, to have to use a lower standard of facilities, to quite possibly travel long distances to get to his new club in evenings.

 

Its all about choice, the current system doesn't give these young players any, having a reserves league does. So ask yourself, who's the selfish one if you deny them that choice.

[Krytensmate]

Exactly, hoarding players till they're 24 and playing them in a lessor competition will do nothing for the players and will have a knock on effect of super league clubs having less residual income to pay and attract top players and will weaken the lower leagues, undermining the new structure and making the gulf larger as there will be less talent filtering down. In all likelihood, the reserve players who don't make it professionally at 24 will be more likely lost to the game having given up their dream, rather than thinking they could work their way through the system at a lower level to get back there like Chris Hill

Hilly signed for Leigh at 16 , making his SL debut at 17 , not really a relevant example for this thread

Jamie Ellis is , he signed for Leigh aged 20 I think , quoting " I'm looking forward to playing against men "

Ultimately a middle ground ( U 21 s ) with an overage quota of 4 is what is needed

As for Hunslet , they are a club waiting to die , their fans aren't happy ( well not the ones I spoke to ) about the situation and I can't see their fan base continuing past the current members

[scotchy]

Potential is so subjective. Doesn't change the fact that McDermott is Eatons boss so Leeds are essentially picking the Hunslet team

Mcdermott is not Eatons boss at Hunslet

[Spidey]

Mcdermott is not Eatons boss at Hunslet

He is at Leeds, Leeds are pulling all the strings in this relationship. I'm not sure why you refuse to admit this when its plain to see. Most other Leeds fans know this Hunslet fans certainly do.

[scotchy]

Eamon voted in favour of the marquee player rule. He only opposed it in previous votes because there was no provision or incentive for club trained players, which there now is.

With regards to the cap he's never said he's opposed to raising the cap, just that now wouldn't be the best time to do it because there is already too much of a gap between the top clubs and the bottom ones. He wants to see a competition where all 12 SL clubs are in a financial position to be able to spend the full cap to create a more even competiton. He thinks that the new TV deal from 2016 will see clubs able to get themselves into this position within a few years so we should then start looking at raising it in order to fend off outside threats from union and the NRL.

You still think forcing a 19 year old to leave his SL club (one he's probably been at since his early teens) and go part time is in their interests do you. Forcing them to suddenly find other work, to receive less training & support and train in evenings only, to have to use a lower standard of facilities, to quite possibly travel long distances to get to his new club in evenings.

Its all about choice, the current system doesn't give these young players any, having a reserves league does. So ask yourself, who's the selfish one if you deny them that choice.

fortunately McManus told us why he voted against a rise in the cap and the marquee allowance. And it wasn't because of no provision for young players. It was because he didn't want players being able to demand more and clubs competing to pay it.

He is however perfectly happy to use a salary cap to keep wages artificially low so he can sign more players to keep them in reserve.

If McManus is so dedicated to the players why won't he allow them to seek their true market worth?

If McManus is so dedicated to an even competiton why is he arguing in favour of hoarding more players?

I haven't argued in favour of forcing a 19 year old to leave his SL club. I think he should be playing first team rugby. If this not at Saints it should be somewhere like Cas. If not there wakefield or Leigh. If not there fax or Fev.

This system gives the player exactly the same choice. The lack of reserves only removes 1.choice from clubs, to hoard players and not use them.

As I said. If McManus is so caring of the reserve players, then allow them to keep ownership of their registration and if they aren't being used they can leave somewhere they will be for free.

[scotchy]

He is at Leeds, Leeds are pulling all the strings in this relationship. I'm not sure why you refuse to admit this when its plain to see. Most other Leeds fans know this Hunslet fans certainly do.

because whilst it may be convenient. It just isn't true.

[scotchy]

Hilly signed for Leigh at 16 , making his SL debut at 17 , not really a relevant example for this thread

Jamie Ellis is , he signed for Leigh aged 20 I think , quoting " I'm looking forward to playing against men "

Ultimately a middle ground ( U 21 s ) with an overage quota of 4 is what is needed

As for Hunslet , they are a club waiting to die , their fans aren't happy ( well not the ones I spoke to ) about the situation and I can't see their fan base continuing past the current members

and yet crowds have grown at Hunslet since they started working with Leeds.

I tell you who is a good example. Kyle Amor. Dropped down from Wigan to Whitehaven picked up by Leeds at 22 and loaned back to whitehaven, then Wakefield, before signing for Wakefield and being bought by St Helens.

[Saint Toppy]

fortunately McManus told us why he voted against a rise in the cap and the marquee allowance. And it wasn't because of no provision for young players. It was because he didn't want players being able to demand more and clubs competing to pay it.

He is however perfectly happy to use a salary cap to keep wages artificially low so he can sign more players to keep them in reserve.

If McManus is so dedicated to the players why won't he allow them to seek their true market worth?

If McManus is so dedicated to an even competiton why is he arguing in favour of hoarding more players?

I haven't argued in favour of forcing a 19 year old to leave his SL club. I think he should be playing first team rugby. If this not at Saints it should be somewhere like Cas. If not there wakefield or Leigh. If not there fax or Fev.

This system gives the player exactly the same choice. The lack of reserves only removes 1.choice from clubs, to hoard players and not use them.

As I said. If McManus is so caring of the reserve players, then allow them to keep ownership of their registration and if they aren't being used they can leave somewhere they will be for free.

In case you hadn't noticed the game doesn't have the money to allow players to be paid vast sums of money. If there were no cap then we'd have a SL of around 6 clubs. If players feel they are worth more they can go to the NRL - again its their choice.

 

By having nowhere for players to go after 19 if they're not ready for 1st team your exactly arguing for them to be forced away from their preferred choice of club.

 

As for the registration, players aren't forced to sign contracts. At 19 they can choose to go elswhere if they wish if they think they are ready for 1st team action then, or they can choose to sign 1, 2, 3 year contracts with their current SL clubs, its their choice.

 

You can try to keep on dressing up Hetherington's tripe all you like but the RFL and a number of the other clubs aren't interested in his selfish behaviour any more. The reserves league is coming back whether he or you like it or not.

[scotchy]

1.In case you hadn't noticed the game doesn't have the money to allow players to be paid vast sums of money. If there were no cap then we'd have a SL of around 6 clubs. If players feel they are worth more they can go to the NRL - again its their choice.

2.By having nowhere for players to go after 19 if they're not ready for 1st team your exactly arguing for them to be forced away from their preferred choice of club.

3.As for the registration, players aren't forced to sign contracts. At 19 they can choose to go elswhere if they wish if they think they are ready for 1st team action then, or they can choose to sign 1, 2, 3 year contracts with their current SL clubs, its their choice.

You can try to keep on dressing up Hetherington's tripe all you like but the RFL and a number of the other clubs aren't interested in his selfish behaviour any more. The reserves league is coming back whether he or you like it or not.

1. McManus is wanting to keep on 15 reserve players on full time that's 240k he is wanting to spend. McManus wants to argue that we can't pay players more but also that it's integral we pay more players not to play first team rugby.

If he is so concerned about the other clubs, why is he wanting to keep more players from them?

2. Or they can go on loan. Or they can be you know, played.

3.but this keeping them on after 19 is for the players benefit isn't it? Oh no, it's for saints benefits. More players for them to hoard and keep away from others.

[Saint Toppy]

1. McManus is wanting to keep on 15 reserve players on full time that's 240k he is wanting to spend. McManus wants to argue that we can't pay players more but also that it's integral we pay more players not to play first team rugby.

If he is so concerned about the other clubs, why is he wanting to keep more players from them?

2. Or they can go on loan. Or they can be you know, played.

3.but this keeping them on after 19 is for the players benefit isn't it? Oh no, it's for saints benefits. More players for them to hoard and keep away from others.

Why aren't these 'others' developing their own players ? why should a small number of clubs develop players for everyone else ?

 

If we are ever to start getting close to the NRL we need a larger pool of better trained, full time players. If we achieve this there will be a far lesser need for clubs to turn to reserve grade australians to fill their squads.

Had there already been a reserves then Saints probably wouldn't have had to sign McDonnel & Quinlan this year and its doubtful they would have signed Peyroux for next year if there was a young centre ready to step up. The current U19's full back isn't ready for the 1st team and they have 3 promising young centres, 2 playing in the U19's and one out on loan at Rochdale. Despite a year in the Championship the club feels he still isn't ready for SL 1st team. They also feel his game hasn't developed as well playing along side part time players every week as it would have done playing along side other 1st team squad members in a reserves.

There's a argument that a small number of championship clubs like Leigh & Bradford would be able to offer a comparible environment to that of a SL club but the vast majority of championship clubs can't, and never will be able to.

[scotchy]

1.Why aren't these 'others' developing their own players ? why should a small number of clubs develop players for everyone else ?

2.If we are ever to start getting close to the NRL we need a larger pool of better trained, full time players. If we achieve this there will be a far lesser need for clubs to turn to reserve grade australians to fill their squads.

Had there already been a reserves then Saints probably wouldn't have had to sign McDonnel & Quinlan this year and its doubtful they would have signed Peyroux for next year if there was a young centre ready to step up. The current U19's full back isn't ready for the 1st team and they have 3 promising young centres, 2 playing in the U19's and one out on loan at Rochdale. Despite a year in the Championship the club feels he still isn't ready for SL 1st team. They also feel his game hasn't developed as well playing along side part time players every week as it would have done playing along side other 1st team squad members in a reserves.

There's a argument that a small number of championship clubs like Leigh & Bradford would be able to offer a comparible environment to that of a SL club but the vast majority of championship clubs can't, and never will be able to.

1. It's you who is saying a competitive league and sharing of players is McManus consideration not me. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of saying a salary cap is necessary to share talent but teams also should be running reserves so they can keep dibs on players for longer.

2. Yet the NRL don't run reserves do they. They run a system far closer to dual registration than a reserves league.

Perhaps reserve grade Australians are better than English reserves because those aussies are playing first team rugby in the Queensland cup instead?

Was Quinlan playing for a reserves team in a reserve league that no-one watched? Or was he playing for Wentworthville Magpies?

You have hugely undermined your argument by bringing in the NRL as they specifically and deliberately don't use such a system.

[Saint Toppy]

Most NRL teams use 'feeder' clubs, a bit like Leeds do with Hunslet, who play in the NSW cup (or Queensland cup). How many other clubs in the UK would be willing to be completely taken over like Hunslet - none I gather so this concept can't be replicated here.

Furthermore several of the NRL clubs are in favour of a return to the reserves team structure. To that end Penrith, Manly, Canterbury, Wests, Newcastle and the NZ Warriors have all reformed their reserve teams over the last few years and play in the NSW cup competition. 

These teams are now starting to dominate the NSW cup clearly showing that there's better development of players who stay under the control of their parent club and play for their parent club team rather than get sent out on a Duel Registration. Its taken just 2 years for Penrith to re-establish a reserve team and have it win the NSW cup.

 

The Championship clubs wont want to see SL teams putting reserves into their league because like in Aus it wont take very long for them to become the dominant teams, so the only option is for them to form their own reserves league. 

 

So contrary to your claims that a reserve league will be of lower quality, there's already evidence in Australia that parent club reserve teams are better than the established teams in a lower league.

 

Incidentally Phil Gould, who was very much the driving force behind the Penrith revival, has been at Saints this week. No doubt he's passing on a lot of his valuable experience on junior player development before we reintroduce a reserves.

[scotchy]

We can keep pretending leeds and Hunslet's relationship is this unrepeatable take over but it's not the case and no amount of repeating it will make it the case.

NRL sides aren't returning to a reserve structure. They are using the Queensland cup instead exactly the way we should use our lower league sides.

Those are also full sides playing in a full comp not u23's.

And you again completely undermine your own argument. Who is the Australian lower league champions? A reserve grade sides or a lower league clubs? I'll give you a clue. It's not penrith

Australia gives us in fact great evidence. They have two structures. 1 closer to dual registration. 1 closer to a reserves league. They also pit the products of the NSW Cup and Queensland cup against each other.

The structure which is closer to dual registration is by far the stronger and is probably the 3rd strongest rl comp in the world.

[Saint Toppy]

We can keep pretending leeds and Hunslet's relationship is this unrepeatable take over but it's not the case and no amount of repeating it will make it the case.

NRL sides aren't returning to a reserve structure. They are using the Queensland cup instead exactly the way we should use our lower league sides.

Those are also full sides playing in a full comp not u23's.

And you again completely undermine your own argument. Who is the Australian lower league champions? A reserve grade sides or a lower league clubs? I'll give you a clue. It's not penrith

Australia gives us in fact great evidence. They have two structures. 1 closer to dual registration. 1 closer to a reserves league. They also pit the products of the NSW Cup and Queensland cup against each other.

The structure which is closer to dual registration is by far the stronger and is probably the 3rd strongest rl comp in the world.

Some quotes from Phil Gould taken from his Sydney Morning Herald column written last month;

 

"For those who may not know, the NSW Cup is the equivalent of the old reserve-grade competition"

 

"The introduction of the National Youth Competition (NYC) eventually saw many NRL clubs then remove their former reserve-grade side and moved players who were too old for under-20s to feeder teams into what we now call the NSW Cup.

When the NYC was first proposed, it was never meant to replace the old reserve-grade competition but for a good while now that's exactly what has happened. And I believe that attitude has been detrimental to our game. Before I arrived back at Penrith in 2011, the Panthers sent their excess players to the Windsor Wolves to play in the NSW Cup competition. To be honest, the Panthers treated this competition very shabbily and again I believed that attitude was detrimental to the club's development. "

 

"In 2014 we reinstated our own Panthers team in the NSW Cup and along with the Bulldogs, Manly, Wests Tigers, Knights and Warriors, we are the only NRL clubs who now carry three senior teams in the NRL, NSW Cup and NYC competitions. Penrith won last year's NSW Cup"

 

"When I arrived at Panthers four years ago, no one wanted to play in the NSW Cup. NRL players saw it as a huge drop in prestige to be playing in another team's colours on some dimly lit suburban ground out of sight and out of mind. Even NYC players considered it a backward step"

 

"The aim is for these development programs and systems to build this Panthers club over the next decade and the model should hopefully sustain this club for many decades to come. We know it's working and we will persevere. This is an expensive exercise and we will produce many NRL players over the next decade, not only for Panthers, but inevitably other NRL clubs as well.

Are we compensated financially for this by the NRL? No we are not. We don't even get a thank you. The basis of all this though has been re-establishing the importance of the reserve-grade side and open-aged completions in the development model."

[scotchy]

Last ten years State of origin won by nsw closer to reserve grade. 1

Last state of origin closer to dual registration Queensland 9.

Let's take a guess at which is producing more, better players.

[Saint Toppy]

Last ten years State of origin won by nsw closer to reserve grade. 1

Last state of origin closer to dual registration Queensland 9.

Let's take a guess at which is producing more, better players.

If thats the best evidence you can come up with then you've well & truly lost this argument !

Given that the clubs only reintroduced their reserves over the last 2-3 years, what on earth has 10 years of origin results has to do with it ?

 

Lets just see over the next few years which clubs produce the larger number of 1st team quality players, those that run reserves or those that dont and use the DR system. After only a few years the evidence from Aus already shows that the parent club teams are able to play at a consistently higher standard than those clubs who use the DR system.

[scotchy]

What consistently higher level? That's just a lie. The full of dual reg affiliated Queensland cup is a better league than the reserves of the NSW Cup.

That's why the winner of the interstate match wasn't super duper solving all problems nsw champs penrith reserves but terrible never works NQ Cowboys affiliate Northern Pride.

[bobbruce]

Last ten years State of origin won by nsw closer to reserve grade. 1

Last state of origin closer to dual registration Queensland 9.

Let's take a guess at which is producing more, better players.

The main difference between NSW and Queensland in the last 10 years has been Smith,Thurston,Slater,Inglis and latterly Cronk. How many Queensland cup games have these players played.

[DoubleD]

Why aren't these 'others' developing their own players ? why should a small number of clubs develop players for everyone else ?

 

If we are ever to start getting close to the NRL we need a larger pool of better trained, full time players. If we achieve this there will be a far lesser need for clubs to turn to reserve grade australians to fill their squads.

Had there already been a reserves then Saints probably wouldn't have had to sign McDonnel & Quinlan this year and its doubtful they would have signed Peyroux for next year if there was a young centre ready to step up. The current U19's full back isn't ready for the 1st team and they have 3 promising young centres, 2 playing in the U19's and one out on loan at Rochdale. Despite a year in the Championship the club feels he still isn't ready for SL 1st team. They also feel his game hasn't developed as well playing along side part time players every week as it would have done playing along side other 1st team squad members in a reserves.

There's a argument that a small number of championship clubs like Leigh & Bradford would be able to offer a comparible environment to that of a SL club but the vast majority of championship clubs can't, and never will be able to.

 

Because Saints cherry pick the best, along with other top clubs.

 

Rochdale are not in the Championship, they are in League 1 and that is not a level which will get players ready for Super League - that is a similar level to what the reserves will be. The Championship would be a higher level so I'm guessing he's not good enough if no Championship club wanted to loan him

[Krytensmate]

Was Quinlan playing for a reserves team in a reserve league that no-one watched? Or was he playing for Wentworthville Magpies?

Considering their stadium is Ringrose Park , I doubt many were watching him either , facilities similar to Leigh East and Leigh Miners

[Krytensmate]

because whilst it may be convenient. It just isn't true.

It is according to the Hunslet fans I spoke to , so who told you different , uncle Gary ?

[scotchy]

The main difference between NSW and Queensland in the last 10 years has been Smith,Thurston,Slater,Inglis and latterly Cronk. How many Queensland cup games have these players played.

Smith, Cronk, Inglis, Slater all played for North's in the Queensland Cup.

[scotchy]

It is according to the Hunslet fans I spoke to , so who told you different , uncle Gary ?

the fans you speak to invariably only exist in your head.

[Krytensmate]

the fans you speak to invariably only exist in your head.

Top comeback , I'm impressed