Frank Sinatra - 100 today

[Martyn Sadler]

Cole was never as big a name as Sinatra despite being a ten times better singer.  Because he was black and because certainly at the time the US was just as racist as South Africa.

 

If you want to compare them as singers, listen to them singing together in 1946, singing 'Exactly Like You', the only recording of them actually doing a duet.

 

Sinatra and Cole had a strong friendship, and they were both great singers.

 

Whether you prefer one to the other is down to a personal preference.

 

You should try to avoid being so dogmatic.

 

Inevitably Cole would have suffered from some racism in the USA in those days, but it didn't stop him being a big star with massive record sales and a huge following.

[WearyRhino]

If you want to compare them as singers, listen to them singing together in 1946, singing 'Exactly Like You', the only recording of them actually doing a duet.

 

To be honest Martyn that goes a long way towards proving the assertion that NKC was "ten times [a] better singer". Sinatra is totally flat all through that, he only hits the notes by them 'bending' up from below. Whilst that is a common and legitimate Jazz singing technique, he's doing it here simply because he cannot hit the note dead.

[Trojan]

If you want to compare them as singers, listen to them singing together in 1946, singing 'Exactly Like You', the only recording of them actually doing a duet.

 

Sinatra and Cole had a strong friendship, and they were both great singers.

 

Whether you prefer one to the other is down to a personal preference.

 

You should try to avoid being so dogmatic.

 

Inevitably Cole would have suffered from some racism in the USA in those days, but it didn't stop him being a big star with massive record sales and a huge following.

Pot calls kettle black sensation!  Are you denying the US was a racist state.  The whole documentary was about Nat King Cole being black and how he dealt with it.

[WearyRhino]

On the 'swing' question, I think you have to avoid confusing the specific sub-genre of Jazz that became known as Swing, and was the dominant 'sound' when the big band era was at it's height, and music that 'swings'. All Jazz swings, if it doesn't it isn't Jazz. Plenty of other genres can swing too. What is swing? Who knows? It's a peculiar indefinable combination of syncopation, accent, rhythmic innovation and improvisation. In some respects, it's about ignoring the time signature and many of the other tim/rhythm rules that classical musical discipline and training. Try listening to a group of straight classical musicians playing a Jazz tune in a very straight classically disciplined way, note for note, and the thing that's missing is swing.

[Martyn Sadler]

To be honest Martyn that goes a long way towards proving the assertion that NKC was "ten times [a] better singer". Sinatra is totally flat all through that, he only hits the notes by them 'bending' up from below. Whilst that is a common and legitimate Jazz singing technique, he's doing it here simply because he cannot hit the note dead.

 

I don't doubt that Nat King Cole was technically a better singer than Sinatra.

 

But I think it's rather silly to talk about him being "ten times better".

[Trojan]

On the 'swing' question, I think you have to avoid confusing the specific sub-genre of Jazz that became known as Swing, and was the dominant 'sound' when the big band era was at it's height, and music that 'swings'. All Jazz swings, if it doesn't it isn't Jazz. Plenty of other genres can swing too. What is swing? Who knows? It's a peculiar indefinable combination of syncopation, accent, rhythmic innovation and improvisation. In some respects, it's about ignoring the time signature and many of the other tim/rhythm rules that classical musical discipline and training. Try listening to a group of straight classical musicians playing a Jazz tune in a very straight classically disciplined way, note for note, and the thing that's missing is swing.

Swing first came to public notice in the US through the Fletcher Henderson Orchestra, for reasons already stated Fletcher could not get nationally recognised, and was short of money, he therefore turned to arranging for the Goodman band and for Chick Webb.  If you listen to both bands playing the same arrangements of the same songs, you will be in no doubt which is the superior.  Race again I'm afraid.

[Martyn Sadler]

Pot calls kettle black sensation!  Are you denying the US was a racist state.  The whole documentary was about Nat King Cole being black and how he dealt with it.

 

Racism has existed in the USA since the country was created and Nat Cole suffered from it at times.

 

But he also suffered from abuse from a section of black America.

[JohnM]

Pot calls kettle black sensation!  Are you denying the US was a racist state.  The whole documentary was about Nat King Cole being black and how he dealt with it.

 

We are all guilty!!  You can and do  find racism in an empty telephone box and anti-Americanism seems to ooze from your very  pores.

 

Cole like Sinatra was a world wide star - and I'm pretty sure the whole world wasn't racist.  Had he lived as long as Sinatra in my view had as many success metrics as Sinatra.  45 years V 82. Surely you are not going to accuse cancer of being racist. You are, though, aren't you!  

[WearyRhino]

Surely you are not going to accuse cancer of being racist. You are, though, aren't you!  

 

Cancer per se is not racist but there is a large body of evidence that socio-economic factors influence survival rates that will only have been exacerbated when you consider the chances of a 45 year old black man in 1965 and an 82 year old white man in 1998.

[Trojan]

We are all guilty!!  You can and do  find racism in an empty telephone box and anti-Americanism seems to ooze from your very  pores.

 

Cole like Sinatra was a world wide star - and I'm pretty sure the whole world wasn't racist.  Had he lived as long as Sinatra in my view had as many success metrics as Sinatra.  45 years V 82. Surely you are not going to accuse cancer of being racist. You are, though, aren't you!  

If you knew anything about the history of jazz you'd know it oozes racism. Nick LaRocca of the ODJB stating for the record that he invented jazz, it had nothing to do with African Americans.  That's where it started and the black man was ripped off of his heritage throughout the history of the genre up to and including Elvis, the so called King of Rock and Roll.

[Martyn Sadler]

If you knew anything about the history of jazz you'd know it oozes racism. Nick LaRocca of the ODJB stating for the record that he invented jazz, it had nothing to do with African Americans.  That's where it started and the black man was ripped off of his heritage throughout the history of the genre up to and including Elvis, the so called King of Rock and Roll.

 

You do seem to see racism around every corner.

 

I had to look up who Nick LaRocca was on Wikipedia, but I'm not sure how some delusional claims by him fairly late in his life proves the fact that jazz oozes racism.

 

I would have said that jazz was one of the few elements of American cultural life in which racism was largely absent from its birth. It was a relatively integrated activity when integration was not characteristic of most other aspects of life in America.

[Martyn Sadler]

Cancer per se is not racist but there is a large body of evidence that socio-economic factors influence survival rates that will only have been exacerbated when you consider the chances of a 45 year old black man in 1965 and an 82 year old white man in 1998.

 

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.

 

Nat King Cole had been a very heavy smoker all his life, and that is what killed him, sadly.

 

The colour of his skin didn't have anything to do with it.

[gingerjon]

 

 

I would have said that jazz was one of the few elements of American cultural life in which racism was largely absent from its birth.

 

Then you'd be wrong.

[Martyn Sadler]

Then you'd be wrong.

 

I may well be.

 

But jazz can feel better about its history than many other American cultural and sporting activities.

[gingerjon]

 

 

But jazz can feel better about its history than many other American cultural and sporting activities.

 

When the bar is set so low ...

[Martyn Sadler]

When the bar is set so low ...

 

Indeed!

[JohnM]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.

Nat King Cole had been a very heavy smoker all his life, and that is what killed him, sadly.

The colour of his skin didn't have anything to do with it.

not just round the corner. It seems that Trojan will not rest until he proves that everyone but him is racist. When combined with his rampant and-(White) Americanism, you might thinh he is just as guily as the rest of us. Yes there has clearly been racism in jazz but America represents just 250 million out of a world population of 7,000,000,000.

there is ample evidence of anti-white racism in jazz, the "white men can't play jazz" syndrome.

[WearyRhino]

I may well be.

But jazz can feel better about its history than many other American cultural and sporting activities.

Most other US cultural and sporting activities would have emerged no matter what, but Jazz only exists because of racism. Without the US slave trade there would be no Jazz (nor any of the musical genre that it spawned).

[Trojan]

You do seem to see racism around every corner.

 

I had to look up who Nick LaRocca was on Wikipedia, but I'm not sure how some delusional claims by him fairly late in his life proves the fact that jazz oozes racism.

 

I would have said that jazz was one of the few elements of American cultural life in which racism was largely absent from its birth. It was a relatively integrated activity when integration was not characteristic of most other aspects of life in America.

If you want to learn about the history of jazz, something that really interests me btw almost as much as TGG, you could do worse than watch PBS's "Jazz" by Ken Burns,  If you would have said that jazz was one of the few elements of American culture free from racism you'd be wrong.  Ask yourself why Benny Goodman (no racist he) found it difficult to get an audience with his trios and quartets, it was because Lionel Hampton and Teddy Wilson were black, the sponsors and the advertisers would not back their programme, because of race. Indeed until fairly recently black music records in the US were called "race records."

[terrywebbisgod]

Or,as my dad says."You could just enjoy the music"

[Wolford6]

Dean Martin died on Christmas Day

[Martyn Sadler]

Most other US cultural and sporting activities would have emerged no matter what, but Jazz only exists because of racism. Without the US slave trade there would be no Jazz (nor any of the musical genre that it spawned).

 

That may be true, but I would contend that Jazz played a significant role in breaking down some racial barriers in the USA, albeit slowly.

[Martyn Sadler]

If you want to learn about the history of jazz, something that really interests me btw almost as much as TGG, you could do worse than watch PBS's "Jazz" by Ken Burns,  If you would have said that jazz was one of the few elements of American culture free from racism you'd be wrong.  Ask yourself why Benny Goodman (no racist he) found it difficult to get an audience with his trios and quartets, it was because Lionel Hampton and Teddy Wilson were black, the sponsors and the advertisers would not back their programme, because of race. Indeed until fairly recently black music records in the US were called "race records."

 

The example you give suggests that the commercial and media worlds were racist, rather than Jazz itself.

[Trojan]

The example you give suggests that the commercial and media worlds were racist, rather than Jazz itself.

Ok, Billie Holiday's singing "Strange Fruit" (a song about southern lynching of black men) earned her a ban from performing in New York clubs, the reason given was that she was on drugs, but then so were so many other unbanned performers.  The real reason was that she was on J Edgar Hoover's list for being an uppity black.  There are scores of records of other similar incidents and probably thousands more that went unrecorded.  These people had to live with this persecution, whether it was from the police or the denial of an audiences by the big networks, It amounted to the same thing, the white artists prospered at the expense of the black.  If that isn't racism what is?

[Martyn Sadler]

Ok, Billie Holiday's singing "Strange Fruit" (a song about southern lynching of black men) earned her a ban from performing in New York clubs, the reason given was that she was on drugs, but then so were so many other unbanned performers.  The real reason was that she was on J Edgar Hoover's ###### list for being an uppity black.  There are scores of records of other similar incidents and probably thousands more that went unrecorded.  These people had to live with this persecution, whether it was from the police or the denial of an audiences by the big networks, It amounted to the same thing, the white artists prospered at the expense of the black.  If that isn't racism what is?

 

This thread is about Frank Sinatra.

 

To quote him on Billie Holliday: "With few exceptions, every major pop singer in the US during her generation has been touched in some way by her genius. It is Billie Holiday who was, and still remains, the greatest single musical influence on me. Lady Day is unquestionably the most important influence on American popular singing in the last twenty years."

 

The tragedy of Billie Holliday was that her addictions meant that her life really was chaotic. She was almost beyond help.