Restructure 2019?

[JoneslessBishop]

Via the broadcast deals and sponsorship that hopefully the likes of Toronto and NYC bring. If they won’t, then there is no need to progress them. They don’t seem to want to progress the player pools there (maybe more Toronto) so the only benefit for me is commercial, but they are potential game changers and that’s why we should progress it. 

I’m not wedded to the idea of a SL2. But providing sufficient income via these teams to ensure every SL team has reserves and an academy should be the priority. If there is sufficient income from these new teams to do so at SL2 level then great. Will be much bigger and healthier infrastructure. But that is why we try and grow in stages, phasing broadcast and sponsorship deals accordingly, and if we hit commercial targets that creates the next phase of growth.

But conferences or tiers now puts the cart before the horse.

6 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

That begs the question of whether or not the money and player pool gets built quicker inside or outside SL. Certainly for the expansion sides my thinking would be that you can really only build and SL level club in SL. As great as Toronto have been it will be materially different for them in SL. 

How do we create the money and player pool for a 16 18 20 team SL with only 12 or 14 teams in It?

 

[Harry Stottle]

6 minutes ago, JoneslessBishop said:

Via the broadcast deals and sponsorship that hopefully the likes of Toronto and NYC bring. If they won’t, then there is no need to progress them. They don’t seem to want to progress the player pools there (maybe more Toronto) so the only benefit for me is commercial, but they are potential game changers and that’s why we should progress it. 

I’m not wedded to the idea of a SL2. But providing sufficient income via these teams to ensure every SL team has reserves and an academy should be the priority. If there is sufficient income from these new teams to do so at SL2 level then great. Will be much bigger and healthier infrastructure. But that is why we try and grow in stages, phasing broadcast and sponsorship deals accordingly, and if we hit commercial targets that creates the next phase of growth.

But conferences or tiers now puts the cart before the horse.

 

Do I read into your opening statement, that for those new clubs in the Americas you would have them wave a TV contract in front of the SL commitee before they get accepted to that division, actually I have not considered that before but you may be closer to the truth than you think, if as you say they cannot offer SL any additional numbers to the playing pool and that they can only offer a commercial deal, then that could be the tempter needed.

[Blind side johnny]

2 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

He's selectively choosing his arguments again. He knows the counter arguments: it's been done countless times. I don't know how one club having a tough time means there can be no more and not that that one club is just having a tough time or is badly managed. Nor have I seen a quote where all the SL chairmen have said there's not enough players to expand the league. When you start quoting Gary Schofield, you know your argument is poor!

Well, take away any blinkers and look at what is happening lower down. Do you know that the Hull league is down to seven teams, that amateur clubs are struggling to fulfill fixtures due to a lack of players, that coaches such as Mark Aston are saying that they can't retain players who are simply drifting away from the sport altogether. We hear suits at the RFL talk about player pathways without making it clear exactly what they are doing to improve this situation. Focusing upon international expansion whilst at the same time getting rid of development officers doesn't seem like the right way around to me, but maybe I am just being simplistic.

[Blind side johnny]

Just now, Harry Stottle said:

Do I read into your opening statement, that for those new clubs in the Americas you would have them wave a TV contract in front of the SL commitee before they get accepted to that division, actually I have not considered that before but you may be closer to the truth than you think, if as you say they cannot offer SL any additional numbers to the playing pool and that they can only offer a commercial deal, then that could be the tempter needed.

I believe that is precisely what has been said by a number of SL chairmen. Any expansion clubs have to be bringing increased income into the sport via such deals, otherwise they won't be considered.

[Harry Stottle]

45 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

I believe that is precisely what has been said by a number of SL chairmen. Any expansion clubs have to be bringing increased income into the sport via such deals, otherwise they won't be considered.

Exactly so, and quite rightly, Scotch says "That's how it will always work we will never get the benefits before we have done the thing" but is that what the SL will do, I don't think so it seems they may be reluctant to take a gamble, perhaps if some clubs are rich enough to make deposits and give gaurentees that could be a different scenario.

[JoneslessBishop]

53 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Do I read into your opening statement, that for those new clubs in the Americas you would have them wave a TV contract in front of the SL commitee before they get accepted to that division, actually I have not considered that before but you may be closer to the truth than you think, if as you say they cannot offer SL any additional numbers to the playing pool and that they can only offer a commercial deal, then that could be the tempter needed.

I would have hoped that the SL clubs would allow Toronto in, as a NA test case. Not sure they can be expected to generate a huge deal without becoming established. Catalan were allowed in without a profit share on their French TV deal. I think Ian Lenagan’s statement about lack of away fans was some muscular positioning, and now it’s more so in their hands than ever before now the RFL are off the SL board. However, Gary Hetherington was pictured entertaining Eric Perez at the Grand Final and Ian Lenagan met David Argyle at the Capital Challenge (recent Guardian article). So communication lines seem open and amicable. Let’s remember that Toronto have already delivered the TransAt deal at League 1 level so they do have some commercial acumen.

So I think I am closer to the truth than you think that I think I am.

I just hope that SL clubs aren’t going to try and drive to hard an initial deal. The first TransAtlantic elite competition can be a game changer and can benefit UK deals, as opposed to making a ‘someone else’s pie’ grab. But they do like pies in Wigan!

[Harry Stottle]

54 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Those two things aren' really linked though. Having Toronto in doesn't cost a development officer. 

Agree wholeheartedly with that, but the fact is we will need a lot more development officers if we are to have multiple new NA teams in the UK league structure, to keep up with player demand.

[JoneslessBishop]

56 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Problem is sl level broadcast deals for Toronto and nyc etc dont happen when they are in the championship. 

I'm not sure we have 18 or 20 sides that are there. But that isn't the reason I wouldn't have 9 or 10 club conferences. The problem is we don't right now have 18 or 20 sides who can get there. 

The point I am making is that whenever we expand either to a new place or the size of the league we will need to make a step back to go forward. We are never going to produce even enough players for a 12 team league if we only have 10 teams. We aren't going to produce enough for 14 if we have 12. We aren't going to get a tv deal congruent with what we expect if we don't put that structure in place. We will be the ones to take the first step everytime. Crowds, player development and tv deals etc will always be playing catch up. That's how it will always work we will never get the benefits before we have done the thing. 

They can be via a 14 team SL next season at no current clubs detriment though. Maybe too soon for NYC, but if they can deliver Burgess and Slater then why not. Maybe within a couple of years. 14 teams isn’t too big a stretch if we bring in some mid range Aussies plus some very big marquee players. Canada certainly seems to have more liberal working visas. NYC seems focused on Oz players by their initial statements  and very good ones. Toronto would already be relatively conpetive accoridng to their Leigh result and NYC would be tapping into the Oz not UK player pool.

SL2 and conferences are for future dates when commercial benefits have boosted the UK player pool.

[JoneslessBishop]

1 hour ago, Blind side johnny said:

I believe that is precisely what has been said by a number of SL chairmen. Any expansion clubs have to be bringing increased income into the sport via such deals, otherwise they won't be considered.

Let’s use Toronto as the test case. They have already brought TransAt on board providing all that travel. Not to be sniffed at.

[Harry Stottle]

4 minutes ago, JoneslessBishop said:

I would have hoped that the SL clubs would allow Toronto in, as a NA test case. Not sure they can be expected to generate a huge deal without becoming established. Catalan were allowed in without a profit share on their French TV deal. I think Ian Lenagan’s statement about lack of away fans was some muscular positioning, and now it’s more so in their hands than ever before now the RFL are off the SL board. However, Gary Hetherington was pictured entertaining Eric Perez at the Grand Final and Ian Lenagan met David Argyle at the Capital Challenge (recent Guardian article). So communication lines seem open and amicable. Let’s remember that Toronto have already delivered the TransAt deal at League 1 level so they do have some commercial acumen.

So I think I am closer to the truth than you think that I think I am.

I just hope that SL clubs aren’t going to try and drive to hard an initial deal. The first TransAtlantic elite competition can be a game changer and can benefit UK deals, as opposed to making a ‘someone else’s pie’ grab. But they do like pies in Wigan!

It will all come down to looking after numero uno first and foremost Jonesy, I know it is a well used phrase but "Turkeys voting for Xmas" comes to mind, you mention Leneghan but he has no more voting power than Carter or O'Connor i.e. one club one vote.

[JoneslessBishop]

1 hour ago, Blind side johnny said:

I believe that is precisely what has been said by a number of SL chairmen. Any expansion clubs have to be bringing increased income into the sport via such deals, otherwise they won't be considered.

Let’s use Toronto as the test case. They have already brought TransAt on board providing all that travel. Not to be sniffed at.

[Scubby]

3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Agree wholeheartedly with that, but the fact is we will need a lot more development officers if we are to have multiple new NA teams in the UK league structure, to keep up with player demand.

I'm not sure that is true. What will happen is quotas will fall and clubs will recruit regularly from outside the UK. There are probably 100-150 players currently running around reserve grade NSW/Qld Cups who are comfortably better than Championship standard players. NRL clubs may also release younger players to the NH for experience at top grade.

[Harry Stottle]

4 minutes ago, JoneslessBishop said:

Let’s use Toronto as the test case. They have already brought TransAt on board providing all that travel. Not to be sniffed at.

Good point, but what are TransAt actually providing for the RL otger than being a carrier who gaurentee 25 seats to the travelling teams to Canada and 35 seats for Toronto themselves.

[JoneslessBishop]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

It will all come down to looking after numero uno first and foremost Jonesy, I know it is a well used phrase but "Turkeys voting for Xmas" comes to mind, you mention Leneghan but he has no more voting power than Carter or O'Connor i.e. one club one vote.

14 teams mean the turkeys stay in the field not end up on the table. Lenegan and Hetherington have strong power bases, and clubs brought in Catalan and allowed them exception from relegation. 

[Harry Stottle]

Just now, Scubby said:

I'm not sure that is true. What will happen is quotas will fall and clubs will recruit regularly from outside the UK. There are probably 100-150 players currently running around reserve grade NSW/Qld Cups who are comfortably better than Championship standard players. NRL clubs may also release younger players to the NH for experience at top grade.

Those players would not be allowed to make a living over here in the UK because they cannot fulfill the critera to be accepted to be awarded a work permit, are you sure the laws in NA are any different?

[Scubby]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

Those players would not be allowed to make a living over here in the UK because they cannot fulfill the critera to be accepted to be awarded a work permit, are you sure the laws in NA are any different?

I would imagine the 100s of sub standard overseas players who have filled Major League Soccer over the last decade will probably tell you it's a little different. Also, many of Toronto's current players are just Championship standard UK and lower ranked Australian operators.

[Harry Stottle]

1 minute ago, JoneslessBishop said:

14 teams mean the turkeys stay in the field not end up on the table. Lenegan and Hetherington have strong power bases, and clubs brought in Catalan and allowed them exception from relegation. 

Jonesy have you not jumped the gun, firstly the vote is the consideration to alter the structure and number of teams in SL,  we may not get to 14 teams, it could still be 12, and do Catalan get a vote? 

Strong power bases or not for Leeds and Wigan still one man one vote, and if Catalan do not get a vote that is only 11 counting votes, so tge consideration are there 6 clubs who want wholesale changes or only 5, time will tell.

[Harry Stottle]

4 minutes ago, Scubby said:

I would imagine the 100s of sub standard overseas players who have filled Major League Soccer over the last decade will probably tell you it's a little different. Also, many of Toronto's current players are just Championship standard UK and lower ranked Australian operators.

So why does in the case of Rugby League does has I believe to be the case a player from down under has to have of a number of NRL appearences or international selection before being allowed to ply their trade in this country, those are not RL rules but govermental.

[Scubby]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

So why does in the case of Rugby League does has I believe to be the case a player from down under has to have of a number of NRL appearences or international selection before being allowed to ply their trade in this country, those are not RL rules but govermental.

Because that is what the UK have stipulated. It is a decision for the UK. The cases you are talking about only relate to players playing sport in the UK. Believe it or not other countries may have different rules. 

[JoneslessBishop]

17 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Jonesy have you not jumped the gun, firstly the vote is the consideration to alter the structure and number of teams in SL,  we may not get to 14 teams, it could still be 12, and do Catalan get a vote? 

Strong power bases or not for Leeds and Wigan still one man one vote, and if Catalan do not get a vote that is only 11 counting votes, so tge consideration are there 6 clubs who want wholesale changes or only 5, time will tell.

I’m not suggesting a 14 team vote. I’m suggesting a 12 team vote in a new 14 team structure, a 14 team structure that would not threaten the current 12, as the new teams would be an addition not a replacement.

 

Only time will tell on the vote. Fingers crossed for the sake of our game. A vote for 14 now is not a vote for conferences full of NA teams in 7 years time.

[JoneslessBishop]

14 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

So why does in the case of Rugby League does has I believe to be the case a player from down under has to have of a number of NRL appearences or international selection before being allowed to ply their trade in this country, those are not RL rules but govermental.

Rules can be changed in the face of new opportunities. The UK gov has rules, but only for UK teams. That’s why Greg Bird Orr Kuna Minga could ply their trade inUK structures, but not with UK clubs

[JoneslessBishop]

35 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Good point, but what are TransAt actually providing for the RL otger than being a carrier who gaurentee 25 seats to the travelling teams to Canada and 35 seats for Toronto themselves.

Nothing, expect also being a pretty blue chip sponsor for a sport that could only attract Warrington based ‘get the designerlabel.com’ at the last minute before the 2013 World Cup. We have improved since then but let’s keep improving. TransAt was at League1 level. Impressive commercial acumen.more of that please

[JoneslessBishop]

15 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Because that is what the UK have stipulated. It is a decision for the UK. The cases you are talking about only relate to players playing sport in the UK. Believe it or not other countries may have different rules. 

Scubby we can agree on so much. Shall we refresh our England Knights chat?

[Scubby]

27 minutes ago, JoneslessBishop said:

Scubby we can agree on so much. Shall we refresh our England Knights chat?

No worries. Start an England Knights thread and I will happily reiterate my thoughts on the concept 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

3 hours ago, Blind side johnny said:

Well, take away any blinkers and look at what is happening lower down. Do you know that the Hull league is down to seven teams, that amateur clubs are struggling to fulfill fixtures due to a lack of players, that coaches such as Mark Aston are saying that they can't retain players who are simply drifting away from the sport altogether. We hear suits at the RFL talk about player pathways without making it clear exactly what they are doing to improve this situation. Focusing upon international expansion whilst at the same time getting rid of development officers doesn't seem like the right way around to me, but maybe I am just being simplistic.

I don't see how they are linked? It's not because I'm wearing blinkers either.

I know how the amateur scene is shrinking. There are new challenges. We do need more development officers. But I don't see how men offering to fund international clubs takes money from British development officers? It's new money.