Restructure 2019?

[Bleep1673]

Knowing the RFL we will find out all of this in the 3rd week of January 2019

[JoneslessBishop]

1 hour ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

I don't see how they are linked? It's not because I'm wearing blinkers either.

I know how the amateur scene is shrinking. There are new challenges. We do need more development officers. But I don't see how men offering to fund international clubs takes money from British development officers? It's new money.

Especially if it’s new money that benefits the UK game as well. Get SkyTry upped at next broadcast deal. Long term vision more full time clubs in SL2, so players dont walk away from the game as have full contracts elsewhere, as well as contacts at 2 conferences of SL teams. Not enough youths, and 19+ leaving as no game time are two very different issues. More full time clubs would stop the latter.

 

Maybe the reason that the Hull league is down to 7 is that RL isn’t what kids want to do anymore. Maybe with an oft-Prem football team in town their heads have been turned. Maybe N Am teams can turn their heads back

[JoneslessBishop]

5 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

I think there would be a degradation all be it much smaller. 

Largely I agree with my concern would be that going to 14 now with the expectation of going to 15,16,18,20 in 1-10 years guarantee us another structural change in the short-medium term. Going to conferences now, even if it's just with 14 clubs allows us to simply add teams as and when.

If we know/expect NYC and Hamilton are ready for 2020 they just get added, then if Boston are ready for 2021/2022 We can put it out there were looking for a.n other to join with them. 

The structure we put in place next needs to be able to accommodate changes without it needing the type of fundamental changes we have seen over The last ten years. 

I see the point of future proofing the structure. However, I also see no harm in changing it, as long as the long term plan if emphasised and when targets are met, the structure changes. Yes that’s arguably sets us up to fail against future targets, but a 2 x 10 conference structure of the current clubs will more likely result in a failure if new teams dont materialise. So we set something up to break, or state an aspiration that might fail. The former is a more concrete failure. We just don’t need 15-20 ‘elite’ M62 teams, and I don’t  believe the money is there that the current 12 are willing to share now.

[The Parksider]

17 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

He's selectively choosing his arguments again. He knows the counter arguments: it's been done countless times.  Nor have I seen a quote where  SL chairmen have said there's not enough players to expand the league. 

Oddly when Blind side Johnny made the argument I have been making for the player shortage above you collapsed like a pack of cards and admitted “I know how the amateur scene is shrinking”.

As for the idea of 14 clubs in SL as Koukash said over the summer to Sporting Life it was “ridiculous”. His summary of 13 clubs was “Where are we are going to find an extra 30 Super League players without easing the restriction on imports? The problem we face in Super League is that there is not enough home grown talent”. Even then any relaxation on importation is scuppered by Visa rules and despite Scubby’s hopes the rule may not apply in Canada it cannot be the case TWP can be given special treatment.

You left yourself wide open trying to disagree with me for the sake of it when you made the “shrinking” admission, and when under your nose HKR effectively closed their academy. You once told me two clubs in Hull would create growth due to the rivalry. If you look at the starting 17’s of Hull and HKR now there are only 7 Hull lads in there out of the top 34 players on Humberside. You were wrong.

HKR are badly struggling for any quality players as a 12^th club, let alone Hull born. When London collapsed McDermott said their problem was getting players to go the 200 miles to London. Toulouse is 700 miles away, Toronto is 3,400 miles away. How easy will the recruitment be for these two extra clubs to find 60 Superleague standard players who do not exist and would prefer not to travel if they did? Or can I assume your about face for Johnny means you now agree with me that  in reality it will be a massive insurmountable problem?

[Kayakman]

10 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

Oddly when Blind side Johnny made the argument I have been making for the player shortage above you collapsed like a pack of cards and admitted “I know how the amateur scene is shrinking”.

As for the idea of 14 clubs in SL as Koukash said over the summer to Sporting Life it was “ridiculous”. His summary of 13 clubs was “Where are we are going to find an extra 30 Super League players without easing the restriction on imports? The problem we face in Super League is that there is not enough home grown talent”. Even then any relaxation on importation is scuppered by Visa rules and despite Scubby’s hopes the rule may not apply in Canada it cannot be the case TWP can be given special treatment.

You left yourself wide open trying to disagree with me for the sake of it when you made the “shrinking” admission, and when under your nose HKR effectively closed their academy. You once told me two clubs in Hull would create growth due to the rivalry. If you look at the starting 17’s of Hull and HKR now there are only 7 Hull lads in there out of the top 34 players on Humberside. You were wrong.

HKR are badly struggling for any quality players as a 12^th club, let alone Hull born. When London collapsed McDermott said their problem was getting players to go the 200 miles to London. Toulouse is 700 miles away, Toronto is 3,400 miles away. How easy will the recruitment be for these two extra clubs to find 60 Superleague standard players who do not exist and would prefer not to travel if they did? Or can I assume your about face for Johnny means you now agree with me that  in reality it will be a massive insurmountable problem?

Always problems that can't be solved, always challenges to give up on, so defeatist...glad you weren't around fightin' in the dark days of WW2!

[Wellsy4HullFC]

15 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

Oddly when Blind side Johnny made the argument I have been making for the player shortage above you collapsed like a pack of cards and admitted “I know how the amateur scene is shrinking”.

As for the idea of 14 clubs in SL as Koukash said over the summer to Sporting Life it was “ridiculous”. His summary of 13 clubs was “Where are we are going to find an extra 30 Super League players without easing the restriction on imports? The problem we face in Super League is that there is not enough home grown talent”. Even then any relaxation on importation is scuppered by Visa rules and despite Scubby’s hopes the rule may not apply in Canada it cannot be the case TWP can be given special treatment.

You left yourself wide open trying to disagree with me for the sake of it when you made the “shrinking” admission, and when under your nose HKR effectively closed their academy. You once told me two clubs in Hull would create growth due to the rivalry. If you look at the starting 17’s of Hull and HKR now there are only 7 Hull lads in there out of the top 34 players on Humberside. You were wrong.

HKR are badly struggling for any quality players as a 12^th club, let alone Hull born. When London collapsed McDermott said their problem was getting players to go the 200 miles to London. Toulouse is 700 miles away, Toronto is 3,400 miles away. How easy will the recruitment be for these two extra clubs to find 60 Superleague standard players who do not exist and would prefer not to travel if they did? Or can I assume your about face for Johnny means you now agree with me that  in reality it will be a massive insurmountable problem?

You've really tried hard to cherry pick here. Incredibly hard. You've not been so directly insulting this time though, so I'll grace you with a response.

I don't understand where the "folding like a pack of cards" or "about face" comment has come from. If you can quote anywhere where I have said the amateur game isn't shrinking, I'd understand. But you can't, so I won't wait. It's a strawman.

There are issues, but they are not insurmountable as EVERYONE who argues with you has said.

Again, quoting Koukash is hardly a credible authority! You might as well stick to Schofield!

Hull KR have played one game. Let's not judge so early.

There were plenty of problems at London. I don't think McDermott ever exclusively put it down to players traveling. That traveling will have had a lot to do with money (London spend also). Toronto have managed to get a good side together and they're further away. Catalans have had some very good sides over the last ten years (terrible management at the moment). Clubs peaking and troughing is not always down to one thing. You know that.

To say either of those clubs would need 30 players each is another strawman. They wouldn't. They already have some SL quality players, and no SL club has 30 SL quality players throughout the squad. Some are youngsters, some are back up (make good Championship players). Lo and behold, they already have those at the top Championship clubs.

They would need a few quality players, no doubt. 30 each? Well, no wonder you think you're right if you think anyone thinks they'd need to recruit a squad of 30 Sam Tomkins!

[ojx]

Gary Hetherington was just saying that he likes the current structure and unless all clubs could agree on an alternative, it should stay in place until 2021 (next TV contract). So this thread might be pretty mute. Now that the season has started, it is too late to change the structure for 2019.

The only questions is:  Who will play the Wolfpack in the MPG (in Toronto)? Salford? Catalans? HKR?

[Krzzystuff]

58 minutes ago, ojx said:

Gary Hetherington was just saying that he likes the current structure and unless all clubs could agree on an alternative, it should stay in place until 2021 (next TV contract). So this thread might be pretty mute. Now that the season has started, it is too late to change the structure for 2019.

The only questions is:  Who will play the Wolfpack in the MPG (in Toronto)? Salford? Catalans? HKR?

Ojx get back on that spinach mate, I don't want to be a Debbie downer but we won't make the MPG this year unfortunately...we're finishing top 3 of the qualifiers and will have to settle for automatic promotion...bummer.

Everyone says that Leigh have a better team than last year and last year they weren't the worst team in SL so bam....14th team. We spanked them PVC pawns so we're the 13th team.

When it comes to the qualifiers we have the funds for beefing up and it's been mentioned repeatedly that players want to come play for us. Between us and the PVC crew we might bruise the SL basement dwellers enough to give a 3rd Champ team a shot at promotion.

How much would that screw with people's plans for 2019?

[JoneslessBishop]

8 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Oddly when Blind side Johnny made the argument I have been making for the player shortage above you collapsed like a pack of cards and admitted “I know how the amateur scene is shrinking”.

As for the idea of 14 clubs in SL as Koukash said over the summer to Sporting Life it was “ridiculous”. His summary of 13 clubs was “Where are we are going to find an extra 30 Super League players without easing the restriction on imports? The problem we face in Super League is that there is not enough home grown talent”. Even then any relaxation on importation is scuppered by Visa rules and despite Scubby’s hopes the rule may not apply in Canada it cannot be the case TWP can be given special treatment.

You left yourself wide open trying to disagree with me for the sake of it when you made the “shrinking” admission, and when under your nose HKR effectively closed their academy. You once told me two clubs in Hull would create growth due to the rivalry. If you look at the starting 17’s of Hull and HKR now there are only 7 Hull lads in there out of the top 34 players on Humberside. You were wrong.

HKR are badly struggling for any quality players as a 12^th club, let alone Hull born. When London collapsed McDermott said their problem was getting players to go the 200 miles to London. Toulouse is 700 miles away, Toronto is 3,400 miles away. How easy will the recruitment be for these two extra clubs to find 60 Superleague standard players who do not exist and would prefer not to travel if they did? Or can I assume your about face for Johnny means you now agree with me that  in reality it will be a massive insurmountable problem?

If we have a shortage of players at youth level, let’s make our sport more glamorous  so youngsters want to play the game, and generate more income from new and existing markets to develop those youngsters. If the game is in a bad way, let’s generate the income to fix it. 

 

The Wolfpack has no problems in getting players to relocate, and Sam Burgess seems far more excited about relocating to NYC than anywhere else in the northern hemisphere.

Why keep selectively choosing the past when North America is clearly a game changer?

[Michael Gledhill]

April. 

[JoneslessBishop]

11 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

As I say, i largely agree, but i do think that where possible we should avoid the meaningful changes we have been making. I dont think its damaging enough to make us stick with a failing structure or one that doesnt fit our needs but it does set us back and leave us starting again every time.

Perhaps a solution would be to copy the world cup. If Hamilton, Boston, NYC etc are ready, and if we need to find a way to accommodate more teams. Go for a supergroup structure.

The current TV deal is what, about 26m thats distributed to clubs? So go to 18 franchised sides. Two groups of 9. SL 1 and SL2 (dont call them SL1 and SL2). SL1 gets 1.7m, SL2 gets 1.2m. You play each in your group twice (16 games) and each in the other once (4 home, 4 away Magic Weekend) Bottom 4 of SL1 get relegated top 4 SL2 are promoted.

Top 5 in SL 1 go in to play-offs , top 2 in SL2 go in to play-offs . So a 7 team play-off e.g

(Highest team wins).

Week 1, SL1: 2nd v 5th, 3rd v 4th. SL2: 1st v 2nd

Week 2, SL1 2nd v SL1 3rd and SL1 1st v SL2 1st

Week 3 GF SL1 1st v SL1 2nd.

Just an option, im not even sure im in favour but its something to think about.

I think that sort of structure can definitely work. I’d prefer a bit more symmetry by having equal numbers of teams in two conferences, Heritage and TransAtlantic, with the likes of London and the French teams adding to the NA teams, potentially even a Dublin one (current ireland team would be competitive with a few additions). More cosmopolitan opponents would be more attractive to market for the NA teams and French and Irish teams would be good rivals to any NYC, Boston and Montreal teams.

Might seem a bit pie in the sky to many but we do have a North American World Cup in 2025 hopefully, and the Irish apparently have a 3 year plan to get them to League 1, they just need an initial investment of c. £300k. Having a sign-posted plan (not necessarily public, as Union might aggressively respond) of where we want to be, and the structural changes that would necessitate that, would be a good way of attracting that investment.

Like you say, we broadly agree. I think what people don’t like is that we seem to chop and change for no reason. If there is a plan, that can atleast be publicized to show targets have been met to justify the next change, even if hasn’t been made previously public outside of the clubs , I think a lot more people would see there is some method to the madness.

[Harry Stottle]

9 hours ago, JoneslessBishop said:

If we have a shortage of players at youth level, let’s make our sport more glamorous  so youngsters want to play the game, and generate more income from new and existing markets to develop those youngsters. If the game is in a bad way, let’s generate the income to fix it. 

 

The Wolfpack has no problems in getting players to relocate, and Sam Burgess seems far more excited about relocating to NYC than anywhere else in the northern hemisphere.

Why keep selectively choosing the past when North America is clearly a game changer?

Misnomer that one for the vast majority of the players and indeed all the coaching staff, they live still live at at home in the UK and will continue to do so, whilst the Australian lads will live in the UK for training, matches etc, and all travel en-bloc, they will probably spend less than 3 months total in Canada.

[Forestgravy]

I'd personally like to see the French league incorperated into the English system and make it a properly European structure. Having watched a couple of matches on youtube, these teams look to me to be around league 1 standard. I also want a 13 team super league with only a playoff to determine promotion between championship winner and super league bottom club. I think there's a definite marketing ploy there with the use of the number 13, 13 teams, 13 players, it's got a sense of attractiveness about it with the mythology of it being dark and unlucky or whatever. I dunno I'm rambling on but still.

[Harry Stottle]

3 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

So why is it a misnomer? its still not a problem.

Never said it was a problem Scotchy, just pointing out that the players do not actually relocate, like thousands of others they work away from home! 

[Harry Stottle]

1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

They can relocate if they want. its up to them.

Genius.

[Harry Stottle]

3 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

So the Toronto players can relocate to Toronto if they wish and either way its not a problem. Glad to find out that insurmountable issue did eventually have a solution. 

Have you nobody to talk to?

[Kayakman]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Have you nobody to talk to?

I'll talk to you Harry.

[Oxford]

16 hours ago, Michael Gledhill said:

April. 

Er ...

• Simon & Garfunkel - April Come She Will. ...
• Ella Fitzgerald and Louis Armstrong - April in Paris. ...
• Sugarland - April Showers. ...
• Pat Boone - April Love. ...
• Rufus Wainwright - April Fools. ...
• Queen - April Lady.
• Prince - Sometimes it Snows in April. ...
• Deep Purple - April.

mmmm ...... "....is the cruellest month"?

Or is it just an attack of random months you're having?

[Oxford]

5 hours ago, Forestgravy said:

I think there's a definite marketing ploy there with the use of the number 13, 13 teams, 13 players, it's got a sense of attractiveness about it with the mythology of it being dark and unlucky or whatever. I dunno I'm rambling on but still.

The use of Thirteen in TGG marketing has been poor.

And rambling is one of the criteria for membership and a compulsory activity of any forum but especially this one.

[Harry Stottle]

8 hours ago, Kayakman said:

I'll talk to you Harry.

Thanks K'man, as they say 'a friend in need'

I always knew behind that strong arm mantle you wear, you are a caring sole really.

[Harry Stottle]

On 06/02/2018 at 10:38 AM, Harry Stottle said:

It will all come down to looking after numero uno first and foremost Jonesy, I know it is a well used phrase but "Turkeys voting for Xmas" comes to mind, you mention Leneghan but he has no more voting power than Carter or O'Connor i.e. one club one vote.

 

On 06/02/2018 at 10:53 AM, Harry Stottle said:

Strong power bases or not for Leeds and Wigan still one man one vote, and if Catalan do not get a vote that is only 11 counting votes, so tge consideration are there 6 clubs who want wholesale changes or only 5, time will tell.

So whats holding up the announcement for the restructure? Is there trouble in the SL camp, have they got a lock down which way we go, 14 teams, P&R, Overseas Expansion Clubs allowed or Refused Entry, Closed Shop, Licences etc? Has I alluded to the voting system is one club one vote for SL members. It has been posted elsewhere on the pages re Leigh's additional 500K award by the SL clubs in his programme notes Derek Beaumont explained the reasoning for the 'parachute' payment, he also said:-

"Two clubs I won’t name stated that if relegated they felt it would be the death of them"

Someone in this debate spoke about the influence Wigan and Leeds have, NOT in a one man one vote they don't, it is evident from the quote that two clubs would see any chance of relegation from SL in any restructure a priority to be avoided, they effectively cancel out two votes of differing opinion, that leaves 7 votes if Leeds and Wigan see it differently -if Catalans are excluded- but 8 if the information I have gleaned from this site in that Brian Barwick on behalf of the RFL has a vote, could we be at 6-6 on any proposed sructure, hence, no news?

 

 

[Harry Stottle]

6 hours ago, Oxford said:

The use of Thirteen in TGG marketing has been poor.

And rambling is one of the criteria for membership and a compulsory activity of any forum but especially this one.

Julia Bradbury is a great exponent of "rambling" she has TV programmes dedicated to it.

[DKL79]

Once again I see that we have a poster wondering whether Catalans have a vote in any  SLE deliberations. Of course they do, as I explained to Parksider in my first ever visit to this forum. Adeybull reiterated it in a post on the Nigel Wood thread two weeks ago. In the event of a 6/6 tie the RFL has a casting vote if they want to use it. 

Please base any further hypotheses on that situation.

[Blind side johnny]

On 2/6/2018 at 12:36 PM, Wellsy4HullFC said:

I don't see how they are linked? It's not because I'm wearing blinkers either.

I know how the amateur scene is shrinking. There are new challenges. We do need more development officers. But I don't see how men offering to fund international clubs takes money from British development officers? It's new money.

You miss the point entirely. Professional RL in the UK is in danger of running out of players as fewer and fewer ply their trade in the amateur game. Having an eye on expansion is one thing (for which I am in favour) but with the danger of taking they eye of the UL player-pathway ball.

[Blind side johnny]

On 2/6/2018 at 10:35 AM, JoneslessBishop said:

Let’s use Toronto as the test case. They have already brought TransAt on board providing all that travel. Not to be sniffed at.

Even though they have always strongly implied that they would expect to receive a part of the Sky broadcast money if/when they get into SL?