Lebanon in the WC

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

21 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

There’s plenty examples across a multitude of sports of players representing countries they weren’t born in but shows the multicultural planet we’ve become and, IMO, it’s archaic to fixate upon such details. 

Absolutely, 49% of people in Australia have a parent who was born in a country other than Australia, it’s ridiculous to suggest they should only be able to represent Australia, we should embrace the fact that so many NRL players have heritage from various countries and use it to grow the international game.

[Hela Wigmen]

Just now, langpark said:

Exactly. And what i am saying is you are thinking short-term and only about three 80-minute matches.

Lebanese Federation however, seems to be looking at the bigger picture and kudos to them for doing so. 

Do they? What’s the “bigger picture”? You’ve said it would make someone a “bit of a legend back in the Rugby League community” in Lebanon? So, we make someone a “legend” among 1000 participants*. Yeah, and? 

Does that represent an actual picture let alone a bigger one? 

* Taken from the Lebanon RL site. 

[Hela Wigmen]

6 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Absolutely, 49% of people in Australia have a parent who was born in a country other than Australia, it’s ridiculous to suggest they should only be able to represent Australia, we should embrace the fact that so many NRL players have heritage from various countries and use it to grow the international game.

Exactly this. We’re just over two weeks from a celebration of multiculturalism in Rugby League in the form of the Maori v Indigenous game, that’s seen the pre game stuff go viral, and now we have people saying stuff like this. It’s staggering. 

[langpark]

9 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Do they? What’s the “bigger picture”? You’ve said it would make someone a “bit of a legend back in the Rugby League community” in Lebanon? So, we make someone a “legend” among 1000 participants*. Yeah, and? 

Does that represent an actual picture let alone a bigger one? 

* Taken from the Lebanon RL site. 

Right, so you want those 1000 people to not have a role model they can truly identify with, and the local media to not have someone (accomplished) that is capable of speaking to them in the local language? 

1000 is a great start by the way, who knows what that could someday become, especially if you nurture it and show the players there is a clear pathway there for them.

But don't be surprised if, instead of growing, it withers and dies when you opt to shun them instead of embracing them. 

[Hela Wigmen]

1 minute ago, langpark said:

Right, so you want those 1000 people to not have a role model they can truly identify with, and the local media to not have someone (accomplished) that is capable of speaking to them in the local language? 

1000 is a great start by the way, who knows what that could someday become, especially if you nurture it and show the players there is a clear pathway there for them.

But don't be surprised if, instead of growing, it withers and dies when you opt to shun them instead of embracing them. 

So the reason is so some people have a “role model”? I’m not buying that as a bigger picture. 

I have no problems with non-playing staff being made up of domestic players and coaches, I think that should be encouraged, it’s just the selection of them as an empty gesture that doesn’t sit right with me.

Domestic players were selected in the 2008, 2013 and 2017 World Cup’s and I’m not sure what their purposes were and whether there’s been any growth whatsoever as a direct response to an amateur making up the numbers for some nations. 

[langpark]

17 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

So the reason is so some people have a “role model”? I’m not buying that as a bigger picture. 

I have no problems with non-playing staff being made up of domestic players and coaches, I think that should be encouraged, it’s just the selection of them as an empty gesture that doesn’t sit right with me.

Domestic players were selected in the 2008, 2013 and 2017 World Cup’s and I’m not sure what their purposes were and whether there’s been any growth whatsoever as a direct response to an amateur making up the numbers for some nations. 

Well, you'll be happy to know, they got no match time. My argument is that they should.

You talk about "empty gestures". Your suggestion of throwing them some scraps and having them on tour (but staying the hell away from anything anywhere near the playing field) is the epitome of an empty gesture.

And yes, other players, seeing a guy coming from their same town, who maybe started off at the same time as, suddenly playing in a World Cup will inspire others. They can identify and relate and think: if he can do it, so can I!

Your closed shop, Aussie-fest policy will do nothing to motivate increased participation locally. 

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, Hela Wigmen said:

There’s plenty examples across a multitude of sports of players representing countries they weren’t born in but shows the multicultural planet we’ve become and, IMO, it’s archaic to fixate upon such details. 

Imagine an American Football World Cup with all American players, but with 16 countries. The very best players play for America, who would win easily, but the others would be made up of players from the NFL with parents or grandparents from different countries, you’d have Mexico, Poland, Germany, England, Ireland etc. Do you think that would be a sensible concept and do you think anyone outside of (or even inside) America would care about it? 

[Hela Wigmen]

12 minutes ago, langpark said:

Well, you'll be happy to know, they got no match time. My argument is that they should.

You talk about "empty gestures". Your suggestion of throwing them some scraps and having them on tour (but staying the hell away from anything anywhere near the playing field) is the epitome of an empty gesture.

And yes, other players, seeing a guy coming from their same town, who maybe started off at the same time as, suddenly playing in a World Cup will inspire others. They can identify and relate and think: if he can do it, so can I!

Your closed shop, Aussie-fest policy will do nothing to motivate increased participation locally. 

So you want it used for someone to be a role model? What does that achieve? How is that a bigger picture? Frankly, it’s not. 

It’s a hollow gesture that’s seeing players travel as extras and is achieving nothing for that national side and little in their home country. 

[John C H]

10 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Imagine an American Football World Cup with all American players, but with 16 countries. The very best players play for America, who would win easily, but the others would be made up of players from the NFL with parents or grandparents from different countries, you’d have Mexico, Poland, Germany, England, Ireland etc. Do you think that would be a sensible concept and do you think anyone outside of (or even inside) America would care about it? 

Personally, I think it would be superb and I would 100% watch it. The more I think about it, the better it sounds!

[Hela Wigmen]

11 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Imagine an American Football World Cup with all American players, but with 16 countries. The very best players play for America, who would win easily, but the others would be made up of players from the NFL with parents or grandparents from different countries, you’d have Mexico, Poland, Germany, England, Ireland etc. Do you think that would be a sensible concept and do you think anyone outside of (or even inside) America would care about it? 

Or think about how in real life events in Football, Cricket, Rugby Union and other sports that are multi national and how they have World Cup’s with players representing different countries. 

I really hope England devalue the Euros in the summer with Raheem Sterling scoring the winner against Scotland. Equally, I hope Jofra Archer is on top form when I (hopefully) watch England live in the summer. 

[langpark]

18 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

So you want it used for someone to be a role model? What does that achieve? How is that a bigger picture? Frankly, it’s not. 

It’s a hollow gesture that’s seeing players travel as extras and is achieving nothing for that national side and little in their home country. 

And you want 24/24 Aussies, what does that achieve and how is that bigger picture?

Regarding your 2nd paragraph, I agree! Give at least one of them some match time or it is indeed a hollow gesture. 

[Eddie]

20 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Or think about how in real life events in Football, Cricket, Rugby Union and other sports that are multi national and how they have World Cup’s with players representing different countries. 

I really hope England devalue the Euros in the summer with Raheem Sterling scoring the winner against Scotland. Equally, I hope Jofra Archer is on top form when I (hopefully) watch England live in the summer. 

I couldn’t care less about cricket so not sure about your analogy but Sterling was brought up in this country, went to school here and played all his football here. That is nothing like an Australian who’s never been to Italy and can’t speak any Italian rocking up to play for Italy. You clearly know the difference but you’ve obviously refusing to admit it for some reason. 

[Tommygilf]

The solution should be obvious, players over the age of 24 have to have played a percentage of games in the qualification/3 years prior to a world cup to be eligible for the world cup squad. Say a minimum of 1 post season series.

That means the NRL/SL players aren't just rocking up at the World Cup to put on a brand new jersey whilst the guys that got the nation there are tossed by the wayside. Jamaica are a pretty impressive model of doing that with players like Ash Golding playing in their qualifiers and subsequent games. For the European sides it should be easy given the distances involved for Super League/RFL based players, though obviously more difficult for NRL based players.

As these nations are forced into being better outside of world cups then England might wake up and start playing a few of them too - further enhancing the prestige and status of these nations.

[Hela Wigmen]

2 minutes ago, Eddie said:

I couldn’t care less about cricket so not sure about your analogy but Sterling was brought up in this country, went to school here and played all his football here. That is nothing like an Australian who’s never been to Italy and can’t speak any Italian rocking up to play for Italy. You clearly know the difference but you’ve obviously refusing to admit it for some reason. 

No, I know what point you’re attempting to make. I don’t think it’s fair or a true reflection of international sport. You are attempting to tell people how they feel and making sweeping generalisations about peoples heritage, to which many feel proud of and should do. 

[Hela Wigmen]

16 minutes ago, langpark said:

And you want 24/24 Aussies, what does that achieve and how is that bigger picture?

Regarding your 2nd paragraph, I agree! Give at least one of them some match time or it is indeed a hollow gesture. 

No, I want teams to have 24/24 of their best players available to them. I don’t look for birthplaces or ancestry.com for their histories. 

Good performances equate to a bigger media profile, for one. There’s going to be less column inches about the amateur grocer turning up collecting bibs and getting flogged by full time pros. That’s a bigger picture than taking people along, devaluing the competition as a whole and throwing these lambs to the slaughter. 

 

[langpark]

2 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

No, I know what point you’re attempting to make. I don’t think it’s fair or a true reflection of international sport. You are attempting to tell people how they feel and making sweeping generalisations about peoples heritage, to which many feel proud of and should do. 

You and Kev are good at making comparisons to sports that might have a sprinkle of heritage players in the national team. In RL, teams of 100% heritage players has become the norm. This is what needs to change if we seriously want an international sport.

 

[langpark]

4 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Good performances equate to a bigger media profile, for one. There’s going to be less column inches about the amateur grocer turning up collecting bibs and getting flogged by full time pros.

I have said it before and I still stand by it. You are deadset kidding yourself.

Lebanon's "best team" made the Quarters at the last WC!

Italy's "best team" beat England in 2013!

Show me the media frenzies that ensued in Beirut and Rome please!

[Hela Wigmen]

Just now, langpark said:

You and Kev are good at making comparisons to sports that might have a sprinkle of heritage players in the national team. In RL, teams of 100% heritage players has become the norm. This is what needs to change if we seriously want an international sport.

 

Is that a problem though? If players want to represent the land of their mother or grandmother, so be it. It’s allowed and shouldn’t be discouraged.

Rugby League isn’t the most financially lucrative sport at the best of times so players sticking their hand up for Ireland or Lebanon aren’t necessarily going to financially motivated (I know this, as I have spoke with a colleague of a friend who has played Internationally) and often motivated by a pride in their heritage and a motivation to improve onfield (this is a sticking point, admittedly). 

I don’t think we can be so denying of players based upon their birthplaces when in so many countries the game is played in small pockets and barely can be classed as amateur level. I think their should be a place for domestic players to represent their nation but the pinnacle of the game, the World Cup, is not that place. 

[Hela Wigmen]

3 minutes ago, langpark said:

I have said it before and I still stand by it. You are deadset kidding yourself.

Lebanon's "best team" made the Quarters at the last WC!

Italy's "best team" beat England in 2013!

Show me the media frenzies that ensued in Beirut and Rome please!

Show me where USA’s was after a load of amateurs got pelted every game in 2017. 

[Big Picture]

8 minutes ago, langpark said:

You and Kev are good at making comparisons to sports that might have a sprinkle of heritage players in the national team. In RL, teams of 100% heritage players has become the norm. This is what needs to change if we seriously want an international sport.

As I pointed out on another thread, national teams with a sprinkle of heritage players in the national team are only found in soccer, RU and lacrosse.  The other international team sports which I checked out don't allow any heritage qualification.  RL's allowance of whole teams of heritage players stands well out from other world sports, and certainly not in a good way.

[zylya]

I think it's a great initiative - at the end of the day, Lebanon are unlikely to win the World Cup, even if they picked the absolute best squad they could. Bringing 6 domestic players into the squad means that they'll have a chance to work with, and learn from, some of the top NRL players, as well as having Michael Cheika as a coach. The experience and knowledge they'll bring back to the domestic game after the World Cup will help to drive up standards there. It also gives an incentive to the domestic players to work hard to fight for those limited number of spots. 

Interesting to see the talk of devaluing the competition, have read a number of posts here and elsewhere suggesting that teams full of heritage players devalue the competition. In fact, didn't a number of people claim that the Lebanese team of 2000 was a joke because it was solely made up of Australians with parents/grandparents from Lebanon?

With 6 players domestically based, that means a potential squad of 18 heritage players, so it's hardly going to turn Lebanon into whipping boys - the 6 could in theory go the whole tournament without playing a game. It also means that the domestic players are hardly shutting the door on others - if you're not selecting the 19th-24th best Australian based Lebanese players, is that really a catastrophic lost for the "value of the tournament?" The biggest names and best Lebanese players will still absolutely be in the squad. Additionally, in 2017 they had Australia, England and France in their group. This year they've got New Zealand, Ireland and Jamaica. That means there's more scope to include some domestic players in there to provide them with valuable game experience without putting the result in significant jeopardy.

At the end of the day the difference in playing standard set by a squad of 18+6 isn't going to be materially different to a squad of 24+0, but the upside potential is much bigger. Each country has to work out what's best for them and their own development. The likeliest outcome is that this won't get Lebanon any further, or any less far, than they would have got if the last 6 players were Australia-based.

For me, an interesting parallel is looking at what some of the Rugby Union countries are doing - for example, England won't pick players who aren't playing in the Premiership, even if there are players who would be good enough for the squad playing in France. They've made a decision to potentially weaken their National Team in order to protect their domestic game. I see this being the same situation - Lebanon are well within their rights to pick whatever team they want that meets their objectives - if that includes using the World Cup to boost their domestic game, then so be it. In the long-run, if it's done well, it will make them more competitive longer term.

[Eddie]

34 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

No, I know what point you’re attempting to make. I don’t think it’s fair or a true reflection of international sport. You are attempting to tell people how they feel and making sweeping generalisations about peoples heritage, to which many feel proud of and should do. 

No I’m not. 

[Eddie]

27 minutes ago, langpark said:

I have said it before and I still stand by it. You are deadset kidding yourself.

Lebanon's "best team" made the Quarters at the last WC!

Italy's "best team" beat England in 2013!

Show me the media frenzies that ensued in Beirut and Rome please!

I doubt anybody cared, any more than anyone in England would care if a team of Americans with English grandparents won a baseball game representing England. 

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

35 minutes ago, langpark said:

I have said it before and I still stand by it. You are deadset kidding yourself.

Lebanon's "best team" made the Quarters at the last WC!

Italy's "best team" beat England in 2013!

Show me the media frenzies that ensued in Beirut and Rome please!

It’s results that gets the media’s attention and writes headlines not birth certificates. These are just from a quick google search. Can you show the media attention given to emerging Nations losing but playing several players born within that Nation?

https://fijisun.com.fj/2017/10/31/editorial-fiji-and-tonga-a-threat-to-top-nations/
 

https://www.vilatimes.com/2017/11/20/fiji-beats-new-zealand-in-rugby-league-world-cup-quarter-finals/

https://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/rugby/14909679.review-of-scotland-rugby-league-board-aims-to-maximise-four-nations-gains/

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/archive.pakistantoday.com.pk/2017/11/25/rugby-league-world-cup-england-beat-tonga-20-18-to-set-up-final-with-australia/amp/

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thestar.com/amp/sports/2017/11/11/tonga-stuns-new-zealand-at-rugby-league-world-cup.html

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.malaymail.com/amp/news/sports/2017/11/25/england-hold-off-rampaging-tonga-to-reach-world-cup-final/1518351

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/sport/archives/2017/11/26/2003682935

 

[Eddie]

27 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

It’s results that gets the media’s attention and writes headlines not birth certificates. These are just from a quick google search. Can you show the media attention given to emerging Nations losing but playing several players born within that Nation?

https://fijisun.com.fj/2017/10/31/editorial-fiji-and-tonga-a-threat-to-top-nations/
 

https://www.vilatimes.com/2017/11/20/fiji-beats-new-zealand-in-rugby-league-world-cup-quarter-finals/

https://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/rugby/14909679.review-of-scotland-rugby-league-board-aims-to-maximise-four-nations-gains/

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/archive.pakistantoday.com.pk/2017/11/25/rugby-league-world-cup-england-beat-tonga-20-18-to-set-up-final-with-australia/amp/

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thestar.com/amp/sports/2017/11/11/tonga-stuns-new-zealand-at-rugby-league-world-cup.html

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.malaymail.com/amp/news/sports/2017/11/25/england-hold-off-rampaging-tonga-to-reach-world-cup-final/1518351

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/sport/archives/2017/11/26/2003682935

 

At least two of those headlines are exactly that.