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Grand final attendance doom and gloom thread.


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22 minutes ago, briggyq said:

I go each year and the section I always go in can be,shall we say a bit colourful but honestly it was so laid back yes everyone bar the odd saints fan were supporting Catalan but it was a fun atmosphere and I’m glad I went,shame to hear some didn’t have a good a time as I did though

Are you Kyle Amor?

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Thank you all for your nice messages. Yes, I have no doubt that the majority of RL fans are fantastic, unfortunately we remember more the 1% which is annoying. Considering 6 PM as a "late" match is definitely weird to me.

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4 minutes ago, Pitouf said:

Thank you all for your nice messages. Yes, I have no doubt that the majority of RL fans are fantastic, unfortunately we remember more the 1% which is annoying. Considering 6 PM as a "late" match is definitely weird to me.

I guess being able to drink all day prior to kick off on a non working day at the weekend makes it a ‘late’ match.

In England, the police are known to insist on some early kickoffs for football matches they consider to be high risk.

This doesn’t apply to rugby league which has a reputation for different fans mixing unsegregated with little to no trouble, but this can make stewarding complacent when problems occur.

 

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On 05/10/2021 at 09:32, Eddie said:

Does anyone know how many tickets have been sold so far? 55k would be respectable imho, considering one of the teams’ fans can’t easily travel here.  
 

How many other regional sports in Europe would draw a crowd like that? In fact other than football and the odd Union game is there any club game in Europe that could get close

Which could in a way be a problem for Rugby League although "we" as a sport are unlikely to bring in higher attendances there is almost too much sport to choose from. With NFL Europe now throwing games in on the same weekend as the Grand Final there were over 61,000 at Tottenhams stadium for a "club game" the decision is a difficult one. If you want a contact sport then in this country Rugby is your best bet but then "big" boxing fights have sell out attendances and it would be interesting to know how many other contact sport events they have been to before a boxing fight. 

My point really is does Rugby League as a sport try searching to expand whilst isolating its current European secure playing areas or do we secure what we have got and build from inside out. As if the NFL can get bigger attendances than all our games at Wembley the 3 times a year they turn up is that a good thing for our sport? Is attendances our biggest worry? 

Edited by BridBeachRL
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15 hours ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Thanks for taking the time and trouble to post your experience at the weekend.  It is shameful for us that you had to go through this with your young daughter in what should have been a great occasion for Dragons fans.

As embarrassing as it is, unfortunately you are not alone in reporting this kind of anti social behaviour at the Super League Grand Final.  Many of us believe that the late kick off and easy access to alcohol plus an innocent  belief that rugby league can’t have the toxic drinking culture of English football are among the main cause of these problems.

Have you shared your terrible experience with any of the organisers of the Super League Grand Final?  If not, I would encourage you to do so as that will help us come to terms with minimising these things as much as possible.

 

Too be honest the type of experience is more common than we like to think, in my opinion.

At all clubs but speaking at the womens SL final with people on our table the lady mentioned that she had gone to the Saints v Leeds men's play off semi. Her comment was she would not go again to saints because of the behaviour of some of the fans, shouting abusive comments towards them and specifically her elderly friend and daughter.  Now I use to live in St Helens and as such a fan so its disappointing to hear.

In the above instance it was at saints and I have experienced such as well their when visiting with my wife, whom a Leeds fan, plus I hasten to at other grounds, Hull FC my wife refuses to go anymore, Wigan she also has stories to tell from being verbally abused by drunken people - in those cases by other women. Other ground's too. as well as the club she supports Leeds with regard to hearing some commentary. Now my missus is no shrinking violet being from Toxteth Liverpool and not one I would tangle with but she is respectful of others and for her to be so persuaded says the sport does have a problem which we lock away, if we consider it to be a family sport.

I always obviously make the point that they are a very small minority, but it happens at almost every away match we go... their is some drunks that can't stop themselves whilst others we can mingle and chat with.  It gets harder to convince her it is a family game to take our grand children too.

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I'm not brushing other peoples experiences under the carpet by any means, if you have a bad experience it can ruin the night for you and put people off attending in future.

But I genuinely don't think it's so bad. We've had the GF for 23 years now and aside from isolated incidents, there's never been any serious trouble. If you were unfortunate enough to witness some bad behaviour by idiots, I'm not sure that's much comfort but overall it's not something I've experienced in the many,many games I've attended. 

Or maybe I'm just lucky.

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2 hours ago, redjonn said:

Too be honest the type of experience is more common than we like to think, in my opinion.

At all clubs but speaking at the womens SL final with people on our table the lady mentioned that she had gone to the Saints v Leeds men's play off semi. Her comment was she would not go again to saints because of the behaviour of some of the fans, shouting abusive comments towards them and specifically her elderly friend and daughter.  Now I use to live in St Helens and as such a fan so its disappointing to hear.

In the above instance it was at saints and I have experienced such as well their when visiting with my wife, whom a Leeds fan, plus I hasten to at other grounds, Hull FC my wife refuses to go anymore, Wigan she also has stories to tell from being verbally abused by drunken people - in those cases by other women. Other ground's too. as well as the club she supports Leeds with regard to hearing some commentary. Now my missus is no shrinking violet being from Toxteth Liverpool and not one I would tangle with but she is respectful of others and for her to be so persuaded says the sport does have a problem which we lock away, if we consider it to be a family sport.

I always obviously make the point that they are a very small minority, but it happens at almost every away match we go... their is some drunks that can't stop themselves whilst others we can mingle and chat with.  It gets harder to convince her it is a family game to take our grand children too.

This, to me, is a bigger problem rather than the actual crowd on Saturday, which it can be argued is low for understandable reasons. If people, and family groups in particular stop attending because of the anti-social behaviour they have to deal with, where does this leave the sport and trying to sell these show-case events?

Basically it appears the grand final is an excuse to get on the ale / gin / whatever else just after breakfast, magic weekend is an opportunity to do the same the whole weekend and nobody can really be bothered with the Challenge Cup anymore.

The thing that stands out that I read in these threads is die-hard fans saying never again! This is a problem...

 

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On 10/10/2021 at 17:24, fighting irish said:

Then I'd keep them separate from the others, to prevent them from being infected by the overwhelming cynicism, envy, negativity, referee baiting and out and out neanderthal tribalism that is so prevalent amongst the existing ''so called fans'' of this great game.

Talk about the need to break the cycle? 

On Our League livestreams, every short pass prompts a comment like "looked forward", "looked suspicious" or something similar from their lead commentator. i.e. a legal and skilful piece of play produces a negative reaction. Same applies to imaginary knock-ons, where the tendency is always to imply the ref might have missed something. 

Seems harmless, but the same instincts reproduced along touchlines at amateur and junior games take a cynical and repugnant form.

Gather together a collection of those grass roots RL habits and attitudes at a pro game and it creates the kind of atmosphere more likely to attract drunken idiots than families.

Point is, crowd conduct is largely outside the control of the RFL. They can`t vet the fans of pro clubs. Nor can they pre-empt bad behaviour at amateur clubs, only react to it.

But in their own media operation they could try to set a more intelligent tone. Everyone working for them as a commentator or pundit should be an expert who fully understands the rules and how they should be applied. At the moment we just have better-mannered versions of people in the crowd.

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48 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

I'm not brushing other peoples experiences under the carpet by any means, if you have a bad experience it can ruin the night for you and put people off attending in future.

But I genuinely don't think it's so bad. We've had the GF for 23 years now and aside from isolated incidents, there's never been any serious trouble. If you were unfortunate enough to witness some bad behaviour by idiots, I'm not sure that's much comfort but overall it's not something I've experienced in the many,many games I've attended. 

Or maybe I'm just lucky.

Likewise, I’ve never seen any bother either, though that’s not to belittle the unpleasant experiences of others. 

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On 11/10/2021 at 21:42, Eddie said:

I like the idea, although I would object to someone getting on for less money than me because they’re not a RL fan.  
 

With regards to cynicism, I know it’s prevalent among a significant section of RL fans but I didn’t see any of it on Saturday, the crowd were overwhelmingly enjoying the occasion, both in the pubs beforehand and during the game, a really positive atmosphere that my three pals who came and who’d never been before enjoyed greatly. 

That's great news. To be fair, your last paragraph is typical of my own experience.

In reality the ''idea'' would be very impractical, and impossible to police but I was just trying to make a point.

I just wish RL fans could rejoice in the fact that the game is amazing (compared to others) that they/we are lucky to have it, to enjoy. 

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20 hours ago, Wanderer said:

This, to me, is a bigger problem rather than the actual crowd on Saturday, which it can be argued is low for understandable reasons. If people, and family groups in particular stop attending because of the anti-social behaviour they have to deal with, where does this leave the sport and trying to sell these show-case events?

Basically it appears the grand final is an excuse to get on the ale / gin / whatever else just after breakfast, magic weekend is an opportunity to do the same the whole weekend and nobody can really be bothered with the Challenge Cup anymore.

The thing that stands out that I read in these threads is die-hard fans saying never again! This is a problem...

 

I’d really like to see the womens and mens finals (for both the SL Grand Final and Challenge Cup final) to be double-headers.

This would help make it more a whole-day experience, bring more women and families to the day, go towards solving the problem of empty stands l, offer real incentive to women players to be playing at huge stadiums and mean RFL have two less finals to push and promote and go all-in on those two.

Edited by theswanmcr
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13 minutes ago, theswanmcr said:

I’d really like to see the womens and mens finals (for both the SL Grand Final and Challenge Cup final) to be double-headers.

And thus the women's game is immediately devalued.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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14 minutes ago, theswanmcr said:

I’d really like to see the womens and mens finals (for both the SL Grand Final and Challenge Cup final) to be double-headers.

This would help make it more a whole-day experience, bring more women and families to the day, go towards solving the problem of empty stands l, offer real incentive to women players to be playing at huge stadiums and mean RFL have two less finals to push and promote and go all-in on those two.

There is no way that Man Utd would agree to 2 back to back games in the middle of their season.

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2 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

And thus the women's game is immediately devalued.

I've never really thought of it like that but its a valid point. 

Do we want the women's game to be a stand alone entity or just piggy back off the men's game? A stand alone entity building its own strong competition is certainly preferable and the way to go. However I presume, and this is a complete guess, that the women involved would love to play at Wembley even as part of a double header which realistically isn't going to happen for the women's final as a standalone event.

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2 minutes ago, Damien said:

I've never really thought of it like that but its a valid point. 

Do we want the women's game to be a stand alone entity or just piggy back off the men's game? A stand alone entity building its own strong competition is certainly preferable and the way to go. However I presume, and this is a complete guess, that the women involved would love to play at Wembley even as part of a double header which realistically isn't going to happen for the women's final as a standalone 

9's events are areas where women and men can share as tournament weekends  (4 teams both men and women, that sort of thing ) otherwise aim has to be to build as event by itself.

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1 minute ago, Damien said:

I've never really thought of it like that but its a valid point. 

Do we want the women's game to be a stand alone entity or just piggy back off the men's game? A stand alone entity building its own strong competition is certainly preferable and the way to go. However I presume, and this is a complete guess, that the women involved would love to play at Wembley even as part of a double header which realistically isn't going to happen for the women's final as a standalone event.

I think you'd get a mix of responses. I know, from other sports that have had double headers, that the feedback (once players are off the payroll and can speak openly) is that they prefer standalone events. I get that it's not always practical though and if you want the same quality of TV coverage often double headers are the only way to achieve that as companies won't always set up in two separate places and will thus not cover the women's match.

But we're just coming off the back of a very successful women's Grand Final - which did get coverage - so it seems a very poor idea to make it a double header with the men's given that the men's final sells out or comes close to selling out most years anyway.

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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6 minutes ago, Damien said:

There is no way that Man Utd would agree to 2 back to back games in the middle of their season.

That's true, I imagine so at least.

Maybe they could have the women's GF beforehand (week before or a couple of days) and have a bit of a presentation or something of the winners and losers ? It might not pack out the stadium but it might encourage a few hundred women to attend, maybe as friends or family of the teams? It might also help rein in the idiots a little.

Pretty rubbish ideas really but along with a few more it could make a big difference.

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8 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I think you'd get a mix of responses. I know, from other sports that have had double headers, that the feedback (once players are off the payroll and can speak openly) is that they prefer standalone events. I get that it's not always practical though and if you want the same quality of TV coverage often double headers are the only way to achieve that as companies won't always set up in two separate places and will thus not cover the women's match.

But we're just coming off the back of a very successful women's Grand Final - which did get coverage - so it seems a very poor idea to make it a double header with the men's given that the men's final sells out or comes close to selling out most years anyway.

Yes I completely agree. I have always said that the women's game should build as a standalone entity and I firmly believe it can grow quicker and easier than the men's game as it doesn't face the same barriers. The sport should be seeking to ride the crest of the wave that is women's sport at the moment. Separate events make complete sense in doing that and tying events with the men's game can only hold the women's game back.

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23 minutes ago, Damien said:

Yes I completely agree. I have always said that the women's game should build as a standalone entity and I firmly believe it can grow quicker and easier than the men's game as it doesn't face the same barriers. The sport should be seeking to ride the crest of the wave that is women's sport at the moment. Separate events make complete sense in doing that and tying events with the men's game can only hold the women's game back.

I think we’ve already seen here a few different views on this and that’s fair enough.

Although I do understand concerns I don’t think it would undermine and undervalue the women’s game at all and puts it on a level playing field in many respects in terms of playing venue etc.

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5 hours ago, Damien said:

Yes I completely agree. I have always said that the women's game should build as a standalone entity and I firmly believe it can grow quicker and easier than the men's game as it doesn't face the same barriers. The sport should be seeking to ride the crest of the wave that is women's sport at the moment. Separate events make complete sense in doing that and tying events with the men's game can only hold the women's game back.

Who knows?

I like the idea of double-headers on a ''ladies first'' basis, as a family crowd-building initiative (we're not selling out at the moment) and I believe it will work in favour of the women's game also, if spectators (for the men's game) see the women's game and like it.

It's also more likely to be televised (as a double header) so everyone's a winner.

I really don't accept that putting them on first devalues the women's game.

If the evidence suggests that a stand-alone women's final can draw the sponsors, the crowd and television company interest, let's go for it.

The double-header initiative could help them get there quicker. 

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5 hours ago, gingerjon said:

But we're just coming off the back of a very successful women's Grand Final - which did get coverage - so it seems a very poor idea to make it a double header with the men's given that the men's final sells out or comes close to selling out most years anyway.

The women`s GF on Sunday was a double-header event (Saints/Leeds was preceded by Huddersfield/Featherstone).

The fact that women`s RL drew a crowd of 4k+ definitely made more waves than if Saints/Leeds had been the curtain-raiser the day before. Plus, Giants and Rovers would have lost out.

A mix and match pragmatic approach is best. Women`s games played before men`s games are fine as a form of advertising and promotion. But it shouldn`t become the norm.

The women`s WC final will be played alongside the men`s next year, as it was in 2017. At the moment this makes sense. It`s only once every four years, and our women`s WC is not yet strong enough to make an impression as a standalone tournament.

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58 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said:

The women`s GF on Sunday was a double-header event (Saints/Leeds was preceded by Huddersfield/Featherstone).

The fact that women`s RL drew a crowd of 4k+ definitely made more waves than if Saints/Leeds had been the curtain-raiser the day before. Plus, Giants and Rovers would have lost out.

A mix and match pragmatic approach is best. Women`s games played before men`s games are fine as a form of advertising and promotion. But it shouldn`t become the norm.

The women`s WC final will be played alongside the men`s next year, as it was in 2017. At the moment this makes sense. It`s only once every four years, and our women`s WC is not yet strong enough to make an impression as a standalone tournament.

The set up for the women’s grand final being a good example of the curtain raiser / main game nature of double headers. And there’s nothing wrong with that when it’s appropriate and works.

Hopefully, we’ll see the women’s Challenge Cup final given its own day soon and we obviously have a really good platform now for the Grand Final.

And I refuse to be pessimistic for the men’s grand final on the back of this one odd year. If we’re still struggling next year - whoever is in the final - then is the time to start thinking of “what needs to be done”.

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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On 12/10/2021 at 15:31, Wanderer said:

This, to me, is a bigger problem rather than the actual crowd on Saturday, which it can be argued is low for understandable reasons. If people, and family groups in particular stop attending because of the anti-social behaviour they have to deal with, where does this leave the sport and trying to sell these show-case events?

Basically it appears the grand final is an excuse to get on the ale / gin / whatever else just after breakfast, magic weekend is an opportunity to do the same the whole weekend and nobody can really be bothered with the Challenge Cup anymore.

The thing that stands out that I read in these threads is die-hard fans saying never again! This is a problem...

 

The problem is that the prevailing belief in this country is that you have have to be drunk or you haven’t had a good time, so people go out and drink to get drunk which causes all the trouble.

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