RLWC Attendance-O-Meter

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Damien said:

Warrington is an issue. It screams small time and will not interest anyone beyond the converted RL fan, many of whom have shown little support for similar matches against France in the past. You are not going to regularly fill Warrington for this match to ever then grow it. All you will get is more of the same, as we have seen for years.

We shouldn't be embarrassed about playing games at RL grounds. 

It is perfectly fine. Staging a quality event is the important thing here - it's positive that this has been announced already with tickets on sale. 

If they can pull their finger out and sellout Warrington, nobody watching on TV will bat an eyelid. 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Aye, I only refer to Liverpool as it was previously in plan. 

If these games can fit into any arena, then it is a really exciting opportunity imo. Many major cities have an arena. 

Copperbox, Manchester and one other would do. Make it a three game series.

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, Leonard said:

I would have been tempted with a medium sized venue in London (Loftus Road and Brentford have been mentioned).

Along with maybe Broncos v Toulouse on a Friday - like Skolars do for the CC final.

 

I'm not against London getting games like this as such, but we do need to be careful. London should get a game in every series, but I dont know any other spirits that stage their internationals well away from their core audience. 

Edit: although I'd be tempted by a visit to Brentford. 

Edited November 21, 2022 by Dave T

[Damien]

Just now, Dave T said:

We shouldn't be embarrassed about playing games at RL grounds. 

It is perfectly fine. Staging a quality event is the important thing here - it's positive that this has been announced already with tickets on sale. 

If they can pull their finger out and sellout Warrington, nobody watching on TV will bat an eyelid. 

I've not seen anyone say anything about being embarrassed.

Its not fine. England have just averaged 30k across 5 matches and 6 months later we have them playing in a double header with cheap tickets at Warrington. Its lazy beyond belief. The sport keeps doing the same things with the same results then wonders why we never grow.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

I'm not against London getting games like this as such, but we do need to be careful. London should get a game in every series, but I dont know any other spirits that stage their internationals well away from their core audience. 

I think it is simply a factor of whether the core audience is more or less likely to turn out for what is, in essence, likely to be a one sided game (accepting the lack of NRL players might make it a lot closer).

[gingerjon]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I dont know any other spirits that stage their internationals well away from their core audience. 

London has consistently delivered higher attendances than the heartlands for internationals for decades.

The core event audience of RL internationals is London and the South East.

That's the lesson that RL forgets every single time.

[Dave T]

Just now, Damien said:

I've not seen anyone say anything about being embarrassed.

Its not fine. England have just averaged 30k across 5 matches and 6 months later we have them playing in a double header with cheap tickets at Warrington. Its lazy beyond belief. The sport keeps doing the same things with the same results then wonders why we never grow.

A 15k stadium for England v France is not a problem. Whether that is Doncaster, Wire, Saints, wherever. 

There is little demand for these events, whilst I agree venue selection can be important, just choosing Brentford for example won't see 20k there. 

Selling the event is the starting point. 

[Damien]

4 minutes ago, Leonard said:

I would have been tempted with a medium sized venue in London (Loftus Road and Brentford have been mentioned).

Along with maybe Broncos v Toulouse on a Friday - like Skolars do for the CC final.

 

Indeed. RL fans have time and again shown themselves to be snobbish about this fixture and it should be played elsewhere. The RFL aren't even that confident of selling it or it wouldn't be a double header at Warrington with cheap tickets.

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

London has consistently delivered higher attendances than the heartlands for internationals for decades.

The core event audience of RL internationals is London and the South East.

That's the lesson that RL forgets every single time.

They don't really. They stage a game in London for every series. 

There is no evidence that shows London will turn out for England v France in April. 

[Guest]

Just now, Damien said:

Indeed. RL fans have time and again shown themselves to be snobbish about this fixture and it should be played elsewhere. The RFL aren't even that confident of selling it or it wouldn't be a double header at Warrington with cheap tickets.

To be fair - the cheap tickets are only until Jan. I just picked up GF tickets half price - but that is only a week offer as well.

I would think post Jan it would be £20 a ticket, which is fine (no doubt until the week before fire sale).

[Damien]

12 minutes ago, Dave T said:

A 15k stadium for England v France is not a problem. Whether that is Doncaster, Wire, Saints, wherever. 

There is little demand for these events, whilst I agree venue selection can be important, just choosing Brentford for example won't see 20k there. 

Selling the event is the starting point. 

A 15k stadium in Warrington for a double header is the problem.

There is little demand from RL fans for England v France, history shows that. The attitudes of some on this forum show that. That is why it's stupid repeating the same mistakes.

There is no big event at a 15k stadium in Warrington. That is small time.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Damien

[gingerjon]

Just now, Dave T said:

There is no evidence that shows London will turn out for England v France in April. 

I mean, we have all the evidence that Warrington produces low, disinterested crowds and can't be trusted to put on an event. It is a terrifyingly awful choice for our first international after a World Cup.

Like: really, really bad.

You could charge double in London and sail past the number who will watch in Wire - and the vast majority would be exactly the kind of new event crowd that RFL/IMG are meant to be targeting.

[Damien]

5 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

London has consistently delivered higher attendances than the heartlands for internationals for decades.

The core event audience of RL internationals is London and the South East.

That's the lesson that RL forgets every single time.

Yes, every single time.

We always get good crowds in London and have just got good crowds in Newcastle and Coventry. The RFL just ignore this and go for the cheap and lazy option and have done the same kind of thing they do time and again. Then because they have piled it high and sold it cheap will be scratching their heads wondering why few are interested.

[Chrispmartha]

8 minutes ago, Dave T said:

They don't really. They stage a game in London for every series. 

There is no evidence that shows London will turn out for England v France in April. 

There's evidence that England don't really turn out for mid season internationals in the NW of England  though

I think we've had attendances of

5,144

4,000

9393

In the last 3 Mid season England matches at Leigh and Warrington, I appreciate the 4,000 was during the pandemic.

Im not totally against it being at Warrington, I am totally against it being a double header, as you say have the women game at York and the mensal Warrington and its better IMO

As for evidence of what the turnout would be in London, well of course there isn't any recent evidence because they haven't done it

Edited November 21, 2022 by Chrispmartha

[Damien]

5 minutes ago, Leonard said:

To be fair - the cheap tickets are only until Jan. I just picked up GF tickets half price - but that is only a week offer as well.

I would think post Jan it would be £20 a ticket, which is fine (no doubt until the week before fire sale).

The ticket prices in isolation don't concern me as an early bird offer. It becomes an issue when you throw everything else into the equation and it is the same message the RFL send out time and again, that this is a cheap event, with a women's game tagged on, hidden away in Warrington. Yeah sure some will go but for many that's not a great sales pitch.

[Chrispmartha]

9 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I mean, we have all the evidence that Warrington produces low, disinterested crowds and can't be trusted to put on an event. It is a terrifyingly awful choice for our first international after a World Cup.

Like: really, really bad.

You could charge double in London and sail past the number who will watch in Wire - and the vast majority would be exactly the kind of new event crowd that RFL/IMG are meant to be targeting.

What's the saying, keep doing what you've always done and you'll get what you always got.

[Dave T]

Just now, gingerjon said:

I mean, we have all the evidence that Warrington produces low, disinterested crowds and can't be trusted to put on an event. It is a terrifyingly awful choice for our first international after a World Cup.

Like: really, really bad.

You could charge double in London and sail past the number who will watch in Wire - and the vast majority would be exactly the kind of new event crowd that RFL/IMG are meant to be targeting.

We need to be very careful in thinking London is an easy crowd. 

We get decent crowds there for big events, versus Aus and Kiwis so far. As has been seen this year, Newcastle outperformed London for a less prestigious event in the RLWC. 

But when we write off heartland venues we ignore that we do them very poorly I. E. Just open a ground and see who rocks up. How do we think that would do in London? I'll guess at very poorly. It isn't necessarily the venue that is the problem here. That's my point - a case can be made for any ground around the country, but if we stage it poorly, it will do poorly wherever it is. 

GB played at QPR before, getting less than 16k versus NZ. We got a rubbish crowd at Watford. London isn't immune to terribly staged events. We need to stop thinking choosing a venue will fix things. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Damien said:

The ticket prices in isolation don't concern me as an early bird offer. It becomes an issue when you throw everything else into the equation and it is the same message the RFL send out time and again, that this is a cheap event, with a women's game tagged on, hidden away in Warrington. Yeah sure some will go but for many that's not a great sales pitch.

I don't disagree. The RFL is also skint - so maximising the revenue from two games and not just a double header should be a priority (accepting two venues doubles the cost).

[Dave T]

5 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

There's evidence that England don't really turn out for mid season internationals in the NW of England  though

I think we've had attendances of

5,144

4,000

9393

In the last 3 Mid season England matches at Leigh and Warrington, I appreciate the 4,000 was during the pandemic.

Im not totally against it being at Warrington, I am totally against it being a double header, as you say have the women game at York and the mensal Warrington and its better IMO

As for evidence of what the turnout would be in London, well of course there isn't any recent evidence because they haven't done it

On your last para. Why do you think we don't stage England mid-season games in London if we are guaranteed a large crowd paying double the prices? 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

We need to be very careful in thinking London is an easy crowd. 

We get decent crowds there for big events, versus Aus and Kiwis so far. As has been seen this year, Newcastle outperformed London for a less prestigious event in the RLWC. 

But when we write off heartland venues we ignore that we do them very poorly I. E. Just open a ground and see who rocks up. How do we think that would do in London? I'll guess at very poorly. It isn't necessarily the venue that is the problem here. That's my point - a case can be made for any ground around the country, but if we stage it poorly, it will do poorly wherever it is. 

GB played at QPR before, getting less than 16k versus NZ. We got a rubbish crowd at Watford. London isn't immune to terribly staged events. We need to stop thinking choosing a venue will fix things. 

To be fair - QPR only holds 18,500.

And Watford is not London. It's a dump on the outskirts.

[Chrispmartha]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

On your last para. Why do you think we don't stage England mid-season games in London if we are guaranteed a large crowd paying double the prices? 

Lack of ambition?

Who said guaranteed and who said double the price?

Mid season internationals in the heartlands have been poorly attended, why would it be different this time?

[Chrispmartha]

4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

We need to be very careful in thinking London is an easy crowd. 

We get decent crowds there for big events, versus Aus and Kiwis so far. As has been seen this year, Newcastle outperformed London for a less prestigious event in the RLWC. 

But when we write off heartland venues we ignore that we do them very poorly I. E. Just open a ground and see who rocks up. How do we think that would do in London? I'll guess at very poorly. It isn't necessarily the venue that is the problem here. That's my point - a case can be made for any ground around the country, but if we stage it poorly, it will do poorly wherever it is. 

GB played at QPR before, getting less than 16k versus NZ. We got a rubbish crowd at Watford. London isn't immune to terribly staged events. We need to stop thinking choosing a venue will fix things. 

But the ambition should be to hold them in London and Stage them/market them properly.

[gingerjon]

3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Why do you think we don't stage England mid-season games in London if we are guaranteed a large crowd paying double the prices? 

Same reason the Challenge Cup Final is now a Triple Header and this international a Double Header.

Laziness.

[Dave T]

Just now, Chrispmartha said:

Lack of ambition?

Who said guaranteed and who said double the price?

Mid season internationals in the heartlands have been poorly attended, why would it be different this time?

GJ said double the price, and the tone here is very much that London will deliver a better crowd. 

And I should add for balance, that I don't necessarily disagree with people's frustrations here, I want to see more creativity and ambition, there is a certainly a feeling of 'meh' around this, and out and out disappointment about it being a double header. 

But i think at 15k venue is appropriate and I don't much care where it is, as long as we do the basics right and maximise the crowd. 

I think possibly Doncaster would have been a good option. 

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

Same reason the Challenge Cup Final is now a Triple Header and this international a Double Header.

Laziness.

Nah. We are not lazy. 

Lack of funds, lack of strategic direction, lack of vision, lack of decent business case, lack of boldness, sure, people are not just lazy