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Shaun Wane


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20 minutes ago, Damien said:

It's really not. It's perfectly possible for a coach to do and say all the right things and players to still be complacent. It doesn't take much for a player to be off at elite level.

It is possible.

But, this is what distinguishes a successful top coach at International level. 

 

Edited by Niels
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1 minute ago, Damien said:

They did not overplay, thats stupid. Players lost their heads, it happens. Wane certainly did not tell the players to kick the ball dead repeatedly, for Williams to run himself time and again on the 4th or make the many unforced mistakes they made that led to tries.

It's happened from the beginning. They always did look for the extra pass and didn't deliver. They were thus often exposed to Samoa. 

In the 1st half they didn't kick the penalty and waster the Samoan sin bin.

It was a disaster but hey he's an Englishman so it's ok.

At least McNamara lost to a great team thanks to a great play by SJ.

 

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1 hour ago, fighting irish said:

I made some similar points in another post yesterday evening.

I'm interested to hear your opinion on how you account for the lack of energy, passion, attention to detail and the woeful decision making, loose carries, bad passes, dropped balls etc. etc.?

To me they seemed as if they were doped. They certainly weren't enjoying themselves. 

They were sluggish in mind and body, apparently apathetic towards the necessary moment by moment competitive processes, paralysed (by fear perhaps) in the face of lively opposition and finally (arrogantly) ashamed of a one point loss to a very good side.

I suspect, the paralysis might be down to abject fear of (unacceptable) failure instilled by a deeply patriotic coach, to whom losing is absolutely anathema.

For that, Wane must take some responsibility. 

Surely a lot of those things you mention lie with the players though. What Wane emphasised when he took the role was that he wanted players to focus on detail, on not making errors and keeping it simple. They largely did that in the first few games and then for some reason didn't do it against Samoa. I'm not sure how much you can blame the coach for some of these individual errors from players who are capable of much better. It's not like it would have taken much for England to win that game and those are the fine margins.

These aren't kids who might need a pep talk, or someone to talk them through what they have to do. They are supposed to be elite athletes and I don't think you can blame the coach when they start making errors and bad decisions that are so far from what they had already been doing previously.

I'm not sure I can agree with the 'fear of failure because Wane is patriotic' idea. How many successful players and coaches have trotted out the cliche that it's not the joy of winning that motivates them but the fear of failure. And the players themselves are no doubt patriotic too - it's not like Wane is the only one there for whom being English matters. And also one of the criticisms of Bennett was that he didn't understand the importance of GB when he was made the coach - so in a sense he wasn't patriotic enough. I don't think it matters how patriotic you really are - if you're in a semi final of a world cup winning means everything.

Your last line is true though. Wane has to take responsibility because that's what a coach does. He made mistakes, the players made mistakes.

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1 minute ago, MatthewWoody said:

I mean, the way Eng played the extratime was embarrassing. 

Somebody must take responsibility. 

So Wane should take responsibility for Williams losing the ball or Tomkins doing a forward pass in golden point?

Saying someone must take responsibility is just looking for a scapegoat and is an awfully simplistic way of looking at it. It was an abject team performance and should be treated as such.

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Wane took responsibility straight after the game. He’s not shirking away. I don’t think he can be judged on one game alone.  The opening 20/30 mins v PNG was as dominant and England team I’ve ever seen, he must take some credit for that. 

Now it’s up to the RFL to get some meaningful fixtures between now and 2025 so there’s enough time to integrate the younger players into this squad with the older ones retiring 

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16 hours ago, Jughead said:

I have no idea what your first sentence means. 

Samoa were favourites for what? The first game of the tournament? England still had the easiest route to a final that they’ve ever had. They typically play Australia in the groups. They’d been drawn against a tier two nation (albeit a tough) as the next best team in their group. With home advantage, failure to meet the objectives set (and ones that Wane himself banged the drum for) is something that needs reviewing. 

The group seeding was based on World Ranking, it’s nothing to do with gifting England an easy route to the final.

Dont talk ###### about stuff you’re ignorant about

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3 minutes ago, Niels said:

It is possible.

But, this is what distinguishes a successful top coach at International level. 

 

A successful top coach at international is nearly always the Australian coach because they have the best team and the best players who can get them out of trouble time and again. Willie Mason alluded to this recently as being the difference between them and the rest. They also have a winning mentality and know how to grind out games forged in SOO. Friday was yet another prime example if all this.

We had one of the games greatest ever coaches in Wayne Bennett and he was a failure with a similar set of players. Blaming the coach is far too simplistic for the faults England showed.

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1 minute ago, OMEGA said:

The group seeding was based on World Ranking, it’s nothing to do with gifting England an easy route to the final.

Dont talk ###### about stuff you’re ignorant about

It was but the sides in that half, Samoa, England, Tonga, had a rare opportunity to reach the final without playing Aus or Nz.

Samoa seized the opportunity. I think posters are disappointed England didn't.

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Just now, Niels said:

It was but the sides in that half, Samoa, England, Tonga, had a rare opportunity to reach the final without playing Aus or Nz.

Samoa seized the opportunity. I think posters are disappointed England didn't.

Tonga were ranked second, they earned the right to that route by winning more games than Australia since the last World Cup. Samoa did well to navigate to the final dumping 2nd & 3rd in the World out

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9 minutes ago, OMEGA said:

The group seeding was based on World Ranking, it’s nothing to do with gifting England an easy route to the final.

Dont talk ###### about stuff you’re ignorant about

Still, whatever the reason may be, it's the easiest route and still they wasted it.

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10 minutes ago, Damien said:

A successful top coach at international is nearly always the Australian coach because they have the best team and the best players who can get them out of trouble time and again. Willie Mason alluded to this recently as being the difference between them and the rest. They also have a winning mentality and know how to grind out games forged in SOO. Friday was yet another prime example if all this.

We had one of the games greatest ever coaches in Wayne Bennett and he was a failure with a similar set of players. Blaming the coach is far too simplistic for the faults England showed.

Bennett was a failure? 

For losing by a try the final vs a top Kangaroos team? 

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20 minutes ago, Damien said:

So Wane should take responsibility for Williams losing the ball or Tomkins doing a forward pass in golden point?

Saying someone must take responsibility is just looking for a scapegoat and is an awfully simplistic way of looking at it. It was an abject team performance and should be treated as such.

He must have told them to keep it simple and don't overplay. 

If he didn't, it's his fault. 

If he did and they still did what they did, we have a problem.

The whole game decisions and attitude were a disaster yesterday and it's not my fault.

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3 minutes ago, MatthewWoody said:

Bennett was a failure? 

For losing by a try the final vs a top Kangaroos team? 

So that's your definition of a successful international coach? The fact is we lost, again. I can guarantee if that was Wane you wouldn't be saying the same.

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2 minutes ago, MatthewWoody said:

He must have told them to keep it simple and don't overplay. 

If he didn't, it's his fault. 

If he did and they still did what they did, we have a problem.

The whole game decisions and attitude were a disaster yesterday and it's not my fault.

I should hope its not your fault.

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Just now, Damien said:

So that's your definition of a successful international coach? The fact is we lost, again. I can guarantee if that was Wane you wouldn't be saying the same.

WB did better in world cup football and he was not with home advantage.

I can guarantee you you're defending SW just because he's English.

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26 minutes ago, MatthewWoody said:

It's happened from the beginning. They always did look for the extra pass and didn't deliver. They were thus often exposed to Samoa. 

In the 1st half they didn't kick the penalty and waster the Samoan sin bin.

It was a disaster but hey he's an Englishman so it's ok.

At least McNamara lost to a great team thanks to a great play by SJ.

 

Didn't that great team lose the final 34-0?

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Just now, MatthewWoody said:

WB did better in world cup football and he was not with home advantage.

I can guarantee you you're defending SW just because he's English.

I'd rather watch this team than anything WB put on the field. He also manage no points in a final. He only needed 7 to win it. 

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1 minute ago, Leonard said:

I'd rather watch this team than anything WB put on the field. He also manage no points in a final. He only needed 7 to win it. 

Given how many points England conceded to France and Samoa this year, I thanks God they didn't meet the Kangaroos.

At the moment, WB is the only England coach to reach the WC final since...? 

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6 minutes ago, MatthewWoody said:

Given how many points England conceded to France and Samoa this year, I thanks God they didn't meet the Kangaroos.

At the moment, WB is the only England coach to reach the WC final since...? 

That last 10 mins vs Tonga were all genius. 

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2 minutes ago, Leonard said:

An Elliot Whitehead fingertip vs Tonga and a golden point vs Samoa is the difference between WB and SW.

Hmm, England shouldn't have been in thet golden point at all yesterday. 

They made wrong choice from the beginning and still were in the game. That means this Samoa side wasn't so good.

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