Combining the Championship and League 1 and creating a viable fixture list

[Tommygilf]

Just now, marklaspalmas said:

It wasn't. Go back and read the thread back to Northampton Cougar's post and see why Griff posted what you're replying to.

The point of the B/C gradings is to ensure that no C grade gets into SL. 

[marklaspalmas]

6 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Nobody is suggesting you should stay out of it, but claiming those two people are saying something else because you misinterpreted it, then doubling down on it is a bit silly.

I?m not sure why this seems to bother you so much, and touché with regard to doubling down, but the confusion is clearly there in your post and it's a bit silly to deny it.

[marklaspalmas]

2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

The point of the B/C gradings is to ensure that no C grade gets into SL. 

Is that what it says in the 65 page PDF?

[Tommygilf]

Just now, marklaspalmas said:

Is that what it says in the 65 page PDF?

Yes!

[marklaspalmas]

7 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Yes!

Which page?

[marklaspalmas]

13 minutes ago, marklaspalmas said:

It wasn't. Go back and read the thread back to Northampton Cougar's post and see why Griff posted what you're replying to.

This is actually the point though Tommy......

[Tommygilf]

6 minutes ago, marklaspalmas said:

Which page?

Page 5 mate, its can't be missed.

[Tommygilf]

8 minutes ago, marklaspalmas said:

This is actually the point though Tommy......

Still covers that. A guaranteed in Super League. B eligible to play in Super League if there are vacant spaces. C eligible to play in Championship and League 1. 

[marklaspalmas]

3 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Still covers that. A guaranteed in Super League. B eligible to play in Super League if there are vacant spaces. C eligible to play in Championship and League 1. 

Cat C only exists to cover an eventuality where there are less than 12 Cat A and Cat B clubs to cover the twelve 12 slots?

My point there was that makes B/C cats pretty redundant. You need Cat A, and Not A.

My main point however was this: referring back to what Griff posted about P&R between Ch & L1 at the end of 2024, IMG gradings will be irrelevant here?  I asked him for a reference from the manual that says that. Would the Championship not be the next 14 best Cat B clubs? Could there be Cat C clubs in the Championship and Cat B clubs in League 1 in 2025? I can't find that in the IMG PDF.

[Griff]

1 hour ago, marklaspalmas said:

The top 26 you mean?

It¡s perfectly possible a Cat B club could finish in a relegation place in the Championship in 2024, and a Cat C club in a promotion place in League 1. Would that P&R happen? Was that covered in the 65 page PDF you read?

Yes. Promotion and relegation is unchanged between Championship and L1.

Being a Cat C club is no different to Cat B in practice because it looks very much like there are going to be plenty of Cat B clubs to take up any shortfall of Cat A clubs.

[Gav Wilson]

37 minutes ago, marklaspalmas said:

I?m not sure why this seems to bother you so much, and touché with regard to doubling down, but the confusion is clearly there in your post and it's a bit silly to deny it.

Well I understood it... 

[BullyXL]

On 27/10/2023 at 11:06, Smudger06 said:

I'd bin off Cup to be fair, unfortunately no one is bothered about them, if there's no straight knock out cups in the NRL and no straight knock out cups in the NFL there's no point in participating in low popularity cups for teams in an expanded Championship, especially the CC as they have no chance whatsoever of lifting it. 

It's not about that, it's about the possibility of earning extra revenue the further you progress in the cup, especially when the Big Boys enter. Granted, not much chance of progressing after that but an away game against Leeds, Wigan, Saints, Hull KR will attract good crowds which equals good revenue (50/50 split of gate receipts). Money that is well needed.

[Tommygilf]

15 minutes ago, marklaspalmas said:

Cat C only exists to cover an eventuality where there are less than 12 Cat A and Cat B clubs to cover the twelve 12 slots?

My point there was that makes B/C cats pretty redundant. You need Cat A, and Not A.

My main point however was this: referring back to what Griff posted about P&R between Ch & L1 at the end of 2024, IMG gradings will be irrelevant here?  I asked him for a reference from the manual that says that. Would the Championship not be the next 14 best Cat B clubs? Could there be Cat C clubs in the Championship and Cat B clubs in League 1 in 2025? I can't find that in the IMG PDF.

Well it doesn't make it redundant, because there is a material difference between having say Salford (Current B) and Swinton or Dewsbury (Current C) - certainly in having them in Super League. The best B's go into Super League till there are only A's in that comp (by which point I expect there will be a raising of criteria anyway).

Open P/R between Championship and L1 will continue to exist, most B's will be in the championship to the upper end anyway and the comp doesn't have the commercial sensitivity that Super League does - and therefore doesn't have the same impact on the wider games finances. Getting a B makes you eligible for SL promotion.

[marklaspalmas]

13 minutes ago, Gav Wilson said:

Well I understood it... 

Bully for you!

[marklaspalmas]

2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Well it doesn't make it redundant, because there is a material difference between having say Salford (Current B) and Swinton or Dewsbury (Current C) - certainly in having them in Super League. The best B's go into Super League till there are only A's in that comp (by which point I expect there will be a raising of criteria anyway).

So, essentially redundant in the sense that 24 clubs got the necessary grade for 12 slots, and there were always going to be more than 12 otherwise the whole thing falls down.

Quote

Open P/R between Championship and L1 will continue to exist, most B's will be in the championship to the upper end anyway and the comp doesn't have the commercial sensitivity that Super League does - and therefore doesn't have the same impact on the wider games finances. Getting a B makes you eligible for SL promotion.

IMG Doc page number? You or Griff? Ta.

[marklaspalmas]

17 minutes ago, Griff said:

Yes. Promotion and relegation is unchanged between Championship and L1.

Being a Cat C club is no different to Cat B in practice because it looks very much like there are going to be plenty of Cat B clubs to take up any shortfall of Cat A clubs.

Yes. Redundant. That P&R reference?

[Griff]

40 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Page 5 mate, its can't be missed.

As Tommy said.

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, marklaspalmas said:

So, essentially redundant in the sense that 24 clubs got the necessary grade for 12 slots, and there were always going to be more than 12 otherwise the whole thing falls down.

No, because the top B's can change - indeed as it stands Toulouse and Wakefield are in the top 12. 

Its not "Fit for Super League" and "not fit for Super League" that is why there are scores and grades to differentiate.

3 minutes ago, marklaspalmas said:

IMG Doc page number? You or Griff? Ta.

It literally says C grade clubs can play in the championship or League 1, and multiple press releases and conferences have said P/R will continue as normal between the divisions. Its not a story.

[marklaspalmas]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

No, because the top B's can change - indeed as it stands Toulouse and Wakefield are in the top 12. 

Its not "Fit for Super League" and "not fit for Super League" that is why there are scores and grades to differentiate.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Was the process ever in danger of not producing 12 A or B cats for SL? I understand which B clubs will be in SL can and will change. The point about an extra category C which can never be in SL is redundant, isn't it? As it turns out, we only need 5 of 17 B's or something like that.

 

Quote

It literally says C grade clubs can play in the championship or League 1, and multiple press releases and conferences have said P/R will continue as normal between the divisions. Its not a story.

Again, that could mean C clubs play at Championship level if there are not enough B's.

I have missed these multiple releases, and I assume it's not covered in the original doc. I don't know, and I'm happy to admit that. My original point was prefaced with AFAIK, and that's obviously not very far. I'm not one of those posters who think they know everything. Any link to Ch-L1 PR continuing as normal for 2025?

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, marklaspalmas said:

I'm not sure what you mean here. Was the process ever in danger of not producing 12 A or B cats for SL? I understand which B clubs will be in SL can and will change. The point about an extra category C which can never be in SL is redundant, isn't it? As it turns out, we only need 5 of 17 B's or something like that.

 

Again, that could mean C clubs play at Championship level if there are not enough B's.

I have missed these multiple releases, and I assume it's not covered in the original doc. I don't know, and I'm happy to admit that. My original point was prefaced with AFAIK, and that's obviously not very far. I'm not one of those posters who think they know everything. Any link to Ch-L1 PR continuing as normal for 2025?

When the original gradings were released a few weeks ago I must admit I thought there was no point in having B and C, and I think the low bar for being a Grade B club does make it largely irrelevant. But then I think the grading is a little weird anyway, as being a Grade A doesn't even really guarantee you a place I. E. If we assess that 13 clubs suddenly score an A grade, do we move up to 13 or 14 immediately? I think they've kicked that can down the road. And as the grades are assessed annually, it suggests the numbers would be fluid. 

I think the only real purpose of Grade C is that it could root out a real basket case fluking it on the pitch - I think London only just crept over the Grad B threshold. But the hurdle does appear to be so low as to be unnecessary in reality. 

The reference to P&R remaining between tier 2 and 3 is on page 10 of the IMG reimagining RL doc. However the wording is poor in that it simply states 'performance'. 

https://www.rugby-league.com/governance/about-the-rfl/structure,-strategy-and-reports

[marklaspalmas]

10 minutes ago, Dave T said:

When the original gradings were released a few weeks ago I must admit I thought there was no point in having B and C, and I think the low bar for being a Grade B club does make it largely irrelevant. But then I think the grading is a little weird anyway, as being a Grade A doesn't even really guarantee you a place I. E. If we assess that 13 clubs suddenly score an A grade, do we move up to 13 or 14 immediately? I think they've kicked that can down the road. And as the grades are assessed annually, it suggests the numbers would be fluid. 

I think the only real purpose of Grade C is that it could root out a real basket case fluking it on the pitch - I think London only just crept over the Grad B threshold. But the hurdle does appear to be so low as to be unnecessary in reality. 

The reference to P&R remaining between tier 2 and 3 is on page 10 of the IMG reimagining RL doc. However the wording is poor in that it simply states 'performance'. 

https://www.rugby-league.com/governance/about-the-rfl/structure,-strategy-and-reports

Thanks for that Dave. There's a lot of misinformation out there, and opinions dressed up as facts, so good to recognise this reality for clubs outside SL.

Slight extrapolation, but I do think this reinforces my view that IMG is a purely top flight centred process, and the rest can do the proverbial. Perhaps it was always so, and I was naive to think this was a review of all member clubs of the RFL and their structures, rather than an entrance exam for SL.

[Griff]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

I think the only real purpose of Grade C is that it could root out a real basket case fluking it on the pitch - I think London only just crept over the Grad B threshold. But the hurdle does appear to be so low as to be unnecessary in reality. 

Fluking it on the pitch isn't good enough, though.

The way things work, by definition Cat C clubs are going to be below all Cat B clubs.   So the only situation where a Cat C club could be denied a Superleague place is if there were no more than eleven Cat A + Cat B clubs.

Which is incredibly pessimistic.  We had 24.

[marklaspalmas]

23 minutes ago, Griff said:

Fluking it on the pitch isn't good enough, though.

The way things work, by definition Cat C clubs are going to be below all Cat B clubs.   So the only situation where a Cat C club could be denied a Superleague place is if there were no more than eleven Cat A + Cat B clubs.

Which is incredibly pessimistic.  We had 24.

Which is what I said.
 

Quote

The way things work, by definition Cat C clubs are going to be below all Cat B clubs. 

If there is open P&R between Ch & L1 this does not have to be the case at all.

[Dave T]

38 minutes ago, Griff said:

Fluking it on the pitch isn't good enough, though.

The way things work, by definition Cat C clubs are going to be below all Cat B clubs.   So the only situation where a Cat C club could be denied a Superleague place is if there were no more than eleven Cat A + Cat B clubs.

Which is incredibly pessimistic.  We had 24.

Yes of course. Apologies, brain fart there mixing old and new world! 

[Griff]

34 minutes ago, marklaspalmas said:

If there is open P&R between Ch & L1 this does not have to be the case at all.

It does in the IMG GettingPromotionToSuperLeague table