League Structure still undecided.

[Blind side johnny]

Some worrying suggestions here:

Structure headache outside Super League rages on ahead of Championship season opener as clubs push for solution (loverugbyleague.com)

[Indigogo]

9 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

Some worrying suggestions here:

Structure headache outside Super League rages on ahead of Championship season opener as clubs push for solution (loverugbyleague.com)

It's going to be interesting to see what happens and how that impacts on clubs throughout this season. I'm not sure what the fairest way to sort it is either.

[NickD]

15 hours ago, Blind side johnny said:

Some worrying suggestions here:

Structure headache outside Super League rages on ahead of Championship season opener as clubs push for solution (loverugbyleague.com)

Are there ever any non worrying plans emanating from RL HQ? 

[Blind side johnny]

18 hours ago, Indigogo said:

It's going to be interesting to see what happens and how that impacts on clubs throughout this season. I'm not sure what the fairest way to sort it is either.

It is difficult, particularly for C1 clubs. However, I fail to see how weakening the Championship to solve that problem makes sense. In my view a 14 team Championship is just right, 12 teams less so.

It is very interesting, of course, that there are no suggestions that changing the structure of SL might help. I wonder why that is?

[Indigogo]

42 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

It is difficult, particularly for C1 clubs. However, I fail to see how weakening the Championship to solve that problem makes sense. In my view a 14 team Championship is just right, 12 teams less so.

It is very interesting, of course, that there are no suggestions that changing the structure of SL might help. I wonder why that is?

A 12 team Championship and an 11 team League One should mean 2 competitive leagues.

If you look at last season's championship table there was a clear bottom 5 (Newcastle, Keighley, Haven, Swinton and Barrow) and then probably a jump up in quality to whoever was next in the league table. If 4 came down in stead of 2 it would mean a much more competitive L1 with more meaningful fixtures and a play off schedule that would likely mean anyone could go up, all adding to the excitement. For 2024 I can probably tell you the league placings of all teams before a ball has been kicked. 

I don't know what the answer is. I don't even know what the options that are being considered are. I do think somewhere along the lines though there's going to be some unhappy clubs. I know only too well as it's happened to Keighley a couple of times in the past.

[creditwhereitsdews]

Hard to see us being anything but a League One/basement club for the foreseeable future, and that's nothing to do with IMG.

Other clubs seem to be grasping the nettle whether in terms of the IMG demands, running a club or just playing rugby league in 2024, where as we seem to just be doing the bare minimum with everything.

I know people have complained about the club's lack of ambition in recent years and last year's on-field success was a strong response to that, but walking around the ground on Sunday the gloom had never been as palpable. Nobody is talking the club up.

I talked to four or five fans who plan to give next week's match a miss, the Royal Suite was almost half as busy after the match than it was for the friendlies, there are no longer any teamsheets available – just A4 printouts taped to the wall with a QR code (not great for our older, less techy fans – which let's face it is most of us) – and while it was great to be back in the South Stand, the bar has been reduced to cans of John Smiths being doled out of boxes. Even when you take away what's happening on the field, it's hard to find reasons to stay positive.

The volunteers in the shop, turnstiles and those selling raffle tickets and working behind the scenes are true heroes at the club.

But fans need reasons to go to matches – my only two now are loyalty and blind hope, and I have to admit those are starting to dwindle. 

You just wonder where it's all heading.  Merger with Batley? New owner? Fan-owned community club with small ambitions (but ambitions nonetheless)? Or becoming the next club to be tossed into RL's dustbin of history?

Sorry for the rant, had to get it off my chest and I'll try and perk up soon.

[RugbyPowelly]

34 minutes ago, creditwhereitsdews said:

Hard to see us being anything but a League One/basement club for the foreseeable future, and that's nothing to do with IMG.

Other clubs seem to be grasping the nettle whether in terms of the IMG demands, running a club or just playing rugby league in 2024, where as we seem to just be doing the bare minimum with everything.

I know people have complained about the club's lack of ambition in recent years and last year's on-field success was a strong response to that, but walking around the ground on Sunday the gloom had never been as palpable. Nobody is talking the club up.

I talked to four or five fans who plan to give next week's match a miss, the Royal Suite was almost half as busy after the match than it was for the friendlies, there are no longer any teamsheets available – just A4 printouts taped to the wall with a QR code (not great for our older, less techy fans – which let's face it is most of us) – and while it was great to be back in the South Stand, the bar has been reduced to cans of John Smiths being doled out of boxes. Even when you take away what's happening on the field, it's hard to find reasons to stay positive.

The volunteers in the shop, turnstiles and those selling raffle tickets and working behind the scenes are true heroes at the club.

But fans need reasons to go to matches – my only two now are loyalty and blind hope, and I have to admit those are starting to dwindle. 

You just wonder where it's all heading.  Merger with Batley? New owner? Fan-owned community club with small ambitions (but ambitions nonetheless)? Or becoming the next club to be tossed into RL's dustbin of history?

Sorry for the rant, had to get it off my chest and I'll try and perk up soon.

I think you make some great and valid points. 
 

I just can’t see how it will improve either. Not without losing the identity of our club and if we lose that, is there any point?

[muddyfunster]

14 hours ago, creditwhereitsdews said:

 

But fans need reasons to go to matches – my only two now are loyalty and blind hope, and I have to admit those are starting to dwindle. 

 

I think the same can be said for most of us these days. 

The lack of ambition and playing success over many recent year have lead to this feeling. Last years achievements excluded of course, which might have lead to some small hope of being able to compete and secure a higher league position. After recent showings I very much doubt Fax will be coming to Owl Lane with some trepidation for the opening fixture 

The league campaign has yet to begin and perhaps the players and coaching staff see the current cup competitions as a distraction to the important business of Championship survival? Lets hope so, and seriously prove me wrong. 

[Therein73]

........ and, if we'd adopted the FEV approach for the last few years I don't think we'd have a club now .... Is that what people really want ??

Fev are still in the Championship - same division as us, but somebody has lost an awful lot of money for them to 'achieve' that .........

MS stated quite clearly at the Fans Forum that last year we lost £150k and stand to lose possibly the same again this year - we now get £40k 'funding' from the TV monies, which started out years ago at £600k ......... There are a LOT of people towing their nuts off to support the club and keep it going (volunteers, sponsors, Amber Ribbon, squadbuilder etc) and their only reward seems to be a bunch of 'fans' ready to moan and groan about the slightest thing and stop supporting the Clubs' efforts as soon as we aren't winning ....... Until the next Sheikh or EuroMillions Lottery Winner steps forward, I think we need to accept things as they are and get behind the efforts of all involved to stay in the Championship and do well enough to avoid any negatively impacting changes to the structure below Super League.

See you all on Sunday

[NickD]

16 hours ago, creditwhereitsdews said:

Hard to see us being anything but a League One/basement club for the foreseeable future, and that's nothing to do with IMG.

Other clubs seem to be grasping the nettle whether in terms of the IMG demands, running a club or just playing rugby league in 2024, where as we seem to just be doing the bare minimum with everything.

I know people have complained about the club's lack of ambition in recent years and last year's on-field success was a strong response to that, but walking around the ground on Sunday the gloom had never been as palpable. Nobody is talking the club up.

I talked to four or five fans who plan to give next week's match a miss, the Royal Suite was almost half as busy after the match than it was for the friendlies, there are no longer any teamsheets available – just A4 printouts taped to the wall with a QR code (not great for our older, less techy fans – which let's face it is most of us) – and while it was great to be back in the South Stand, the bar has been reduced to cans of John Smiths being doled out of boxes. Even when you take away what's happening on the field, it's hard to find reasons to stay positive.

The volunteers in the shop, turnstiles and those selling raffle tickets and working behind the scenes are true heroes at the club.

But fans need reasons to go to matches – my only two now are loyalty and blind hope, and I have to admit those are starting to dwindle. 

You just wonder where it's all heading.  Merger with Batley? New owner? Fan-owned community club with small ambitions (but ambitions nonetheless)? Or becoming the next club to be tossed into RL's dustbin of history?

Sorry for the rant, had to get it off my chest and I'll try and perk up soon.

Fair enough post I’d say.   Hard to look forward with optimism without the support of your home population though and it’s been a long time since the vast majority of people in Dewsbury have given two hoots about it’s only professional team unfortunately.  

[NickD]

15 hours ago, RugbyPowelly said:

I think you make some great and valid points. 
 

I just can’t see how it will improve either. Not without losing the identity of our club and if we lose that, is there any point?

I think there will have be mergers over the next few years.  There just won’t be enough money for all to survive outside Super Pooper League.   That will mean some loss of identity but though I thought I’d never say it I’d rather watch a merged Heavy Woollen team than non at all and I wouldn’t watch SL if they paid me. 

[KC Ram]

I can’t see how people can call themselves fans if they don’t turn up and support the team next week. Moaning about lack of ambition and spending and then not putting money through the turnstiles doesn’t help the club. 

[Wakefield Ram]

It is difficult to know what to say. MS has given many hundreds of thousands to keep the club afloat. He could donate another couple of hundred thousand and we might make the play-offs. 

As someone rightly pointed out, some clubs have spent a fortune and are still in the same league as us. This season again it seems some clubs are going for broke to get into SL. What happens if they don't is another question. 

We will never be in SL  and unless we find a Derek Beaumont willing to put £millions in over 4-5 years to build a club and support hard to see anything changing. 

We will be bottom 3 this season. It will depend on a few key fixtures whether we stay up or not. 

 

[Blind side johnny]

42 minutes ago, NickD said:

Fair enough post I’d say.   Hard to look forward with optimism without the support of your home population though and it’s been a long time since the vast majority of people in Dewsbury have given two hoots about it’s only professional team unfortunately.  

Around 125 years I believe.

[Blind side johnny]

37 minutes ago, NickD said:

I think there will have be mergers over the next few years.  There just won’t be enough money for all to survive outside Super Pooper League.   That will mean some loss of identity but though I thought I’d never say it I’d rather watch a merged Heavy Woollen team than non at all and I wouldn’t watch SL if they paid me. 

Merge two clubs and end up with one but with half of the combined support. So many examples of this in RL and elsewhere.

The underlying objective of the IMG tie up is to improve the image of the sport and generate greater demand. We can either be cynical and say it will never work (thereby giving up on the future of RL) or hope that a grand plan finally comes to fruition. Without people actually wanting to watch RL as a sport, as distinct from one particular club, then clubs such as ours and wasting their time trying to increase interest in following them.

[NickD]

27 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

Merge two clubs and end up with one but with half of the combined support. So many examples of this in RL and elsewhere.

The underlying objective of the IMG tie up is to improve the image of the sport and generate greater demand. We can either be cynical and say it will never work (thereby giving up on the future of RL) or hope that a grand plan finally comes to fruition. Without people actually wanting to watch RL as a sport, as distinct from one particular club, then clubs such as ours and wasting their time trying to increase interest in following them.

Fair point BSJ but IMG is doomed to failure cos it’s bonkers.   I may well be wrong but I don’t know another sport in the world where perimeter advertising might get you promoted or not having it might get you relegated even if you finish half way up the league.  The media ( mainstream ) havent quite cottoned on yet as to the fact  that London are relegated before they play a game.   Using the analogy I always use on here, imagine if they tried it with football.   Sorry Luton- you fought like mad, finished fourth from the bottom but you’re relegated cos your ground is ######.  
To be clear though.  I’m a Dewsbury fan and not a rugby fan per sae.  If we ever disappear that would be it for me.  

[Wakefield Ram]

1 hour ago, Blind side johnny said:

Merge two clubs and end up with one but with half of the combined support. So many examples of this in RL and elsewhere.

The underlying objective of the IMG tie up is to improve the image of the sport and generate greater demand. We can either be cynical and say it will never work (thereby giving up on the future of RL) or hope that a grand plan finally comes to fruition. Without people actually wanting to watch RL as a sport, as distinct from one particular club, then clubs such as ours and wasting their time trying to increase interest in following them.

Having worked with many consultancies, IMGs only objective is to make money for themselves. RL is just another client on their books. If they can't make a return for themselves, RL will get dropped and whatever mess they leave behind or clubs which have gone to the wall won't matter. The last "Strategic Partnership" I encountered in the world of work ended in the client suing the consultancy.  The 12 year contract will have break clauses in both sides. 

IMG have just re-hashed licencing with different scoring.  Other than that, what exactly have they done? In what way has the sport been re-imagined?

[Indigogo]

1 hour ago, Wakefield Ram said:

Having worked with many consultancies, IMGs only objective is to make money for themselves. RL is just another client on their books. If they can't make a return for themselves, RL will get dropped and whatever mess they leave behind or clubs which have gone to the wall won't matter. The last "Strategic Partnership" I encountered in the world of work ended in the client suing the consultancy.  The 12 year contract will have break clauses in both sides. 

IMG have just re-hashed licencing with different scoring.  Other than that, what exactly have they done? In what way has the sport been re-imagined?

Stop talking sense will you.

I wish there was this much vigour in calling IMG out before the event. Clubs were quick to back the proposals and have since changed their tune.

[creditwhereitsdews]

I wouldn't want a boom and bust approach but, as many fans have pointed out, a B*tley approach would be achievable on a budget more like ours. Create a community spirit around the club from the chairman down and get the staff, coaches, players, sponsors, fans and volunteers all pulling in the same direction. We have all these things except the direction. With it, I believe we could also aim for things like toppling the Featherstones of this world and aiming to get to Wembley in the 1895 Cup. It's a fantastic competition for clubs like ours.

I also think the club needs a figurehead, a face of the club – preferably with a good rugby profile – who can pull together all of the above and talk up the club to the community and RL world. I understand the chairman can't do it as much these days but we need someone like Carl Hall at Doncaster.

I know programmes have bitten the dust but they were always good for the chairman's comments page, which kept us updated with what had been going on at the club since the last match. Something similar now (in an online form perhaps) would go some way to appease the more doubting fans, I think.

Our club does do good things – I saw a Facebook post last week about Lewis Carr and Jamie Field coaching kids at Shaw Cross. Good on them. I remember a couple of years ago when we played Widnes on TV on a cold February night and we got around 2,500 in after involving the local amateur clubs. Doing things like that now and again is good but they need doing every week. Other clubs do things like have bands on after matches as well as barbecues and real ale tents. If the team can't create a buzz on the field then it would be good to create one off it.

[Wakefield Ram]

22 hours ago, creditwhereitsdews said:

I wouldn't want a boom and bust approach but, as many fans have pointed out, a B*tley approach would be achievable on a budget more like ours. Create a community spirit around the club from the chairman down and get the staff, coaches, players, sponsors, fans and volunteers all pulling in the same direction. We have all these things except the direction. With it, I believe we could also aim for things like toppling the Featherstones of this world and aiming to get to Wembley in the 1895 Cup. It's a fantastic competition for clubs like ours.

I also think the club needs a figurehead, a face of the club – preferably with a good rugby profile – who can pull together all of the above and talk up the club to the community and RL world. I understand the chairman can't do it as much these days but we need someone like Carl Hall at Doncaster.

I know programmes have bitten the dust but they were always good for the chairman's comments page, which kept us updated with what had been going on at the club since the last match. Something similar now (in an online form perhaps) would go some way to appease the more doubting fans, I think.

Our club does do good things – I saw a Facebook post last week about Lewis Carr and Jamie Field coaching kids at Shaw Cross. Good on them. I remember a couple of years ago when we played Widnes on TV on a cold February night and we got around 2,500 in after involving the local amateur clubs. Doing things like that now and again is good but they need doing every week. Other clubs do things like have bands on after matches as well as barbecues and real ale tents. If the team can't create a buzz on the field then it would be good to create one off it.

I think that's exactly what's needed a Chief Executive sort of person to pull everything together. Like you say lots of good things are done, just never get publicised. 

[Blind side johnny]

On 06/02/2024 at 17:15, Wakefield Ram said:

Having worked with many consultancies, IMGs only objective is to make money for themselves. RL is just another client on their books. If they can't make a return for themselves, RL will get dropped and whatever mess they leave behind or clubs which have gone to the wall won't matter. The last "Strategic Partnership" I encountered in the world of work ended in the client suing the consultancy.  The 12 year contract will have break clauses in both sides. 

IMG have just re-hashed licencing with different scoring.  Other than that, what exactly have they done? In what way has the sport been re-imagined?

I won't defend IMG or any other consultants. Their role, as with all consultants, is to somehow fill the gap for a new vision that is sadly lacking at the top of the game. Never mind individual clubs, the sport needs leadership. Creating a stronger community spirit, improving the matchday experience etc are all desirable, without a doubt, but they only allow you to tap into a relatively small audience who actually want to go to a RL match in the first instance. The demand for RL doesn't start at the bottom, it has to be driven from the top.

[Wakefield Ram]

13 hours ago, Blind side johnny said:

I won't defend IMG or any other consultants. Their role, as with all consultants, is to somehow fill the gap for a new vision that is sadly lacking at the top of the game. Never mind individual clubs, the sport needs leadership. Creating a stronger community spirit, improving the matchday experience etc are all desirable, without a doubt, but they only allow you to tap into a relatively small audience who actually want to go to a RL match in the first instance. The demand for RL doesn't start at the bottom, it has to be driven from the top.

Exactly that, where is the strategy to generate new supporters? 

[NickD]

3 hours ago, Wakefield Ram said:

Exactly that, where is the strategy to generate new supporters? 

IMG........

[Wakefield Ram]

So what part of IMG strategy will generate new supporters? 

[Blind side johnny]

42 minutes ago, Wakefield Ram said:

So what part of IMG strategy will generate new supporters? 

In theory by raising the profile of the sport, increasing media access, generating greater publicity and awareness.

Most fans seem to think their only plans are the restructuring of the leagues but it is supposed to be much more far-reaching than that. Whether it will be is anyone's guess.