RFL/RLPA suing Toronto Wolfpack

[Harry Stottle]

3 minutes ago, Derwent said:

Marwan Koukash was meant to be a billionaire…..

Live on radio Manchester the good Doc said he was ready to join his good friend Mr Beaumont at Leigh, also through his then Missus he was going  to buy Bradford considering both fell flat, there must have been something amiss? 

[fighting irish]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

You really think he had all his eggs in one basket?

Sure he would have taken a hit through covid, but if he did not diversify all that wealth he was reported to have he would not have been very astute would he.

'Arry, I'm absolutely convinced the man had plenty of money but after (spending millions in good faith) and then enduring a series of comments by the then head of the RFL, making it quite clear they were unwanted, unwelcome, and nothing but a huge inconvenience, he just decided to pull the plug

To stop spending millions, with an organisation who flirted with him, seduced him into membership and then grew to despise him.

I can hardly blame him.

To pretend the RFL weren't culpable in this debacle is worse than one-eyed 'Arry.

What would you have done, in his position? 

[Harry Stottle]

54 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

'Arry, I'm absolutely convinced the man had plenty of money but after (spending millions in good faith) and then enduring a series of comments by the then head of the RFL, making it quite clear they were unwanted, unwelcome, and nothing but a huge inconvenience, he just decided to pull the plug

To stop spending millions, with an organisation who flirted with him, seduced him into membership and then grew to despise him.

I can hardly blame him.

To pretend the RFL weren't culpable in this debacle is worse than one-eyed 'Arry.

What would you have done, in his position? 

So walk away and leave people high and dry, players and businesses who could very well not afford it, this is about principles, didn't take you to have the same mindset.

I hope he gets used with interest, but he will probably not pay it.

[Dave T]

4 hours ago, dkw said:

I'm sure at the time his business and wealth took a hig hit from covid lockdown didn't it?

Obviously people like this are often pretty secretive about their wealth, but I wonder how poor he and his business are at the moment? 

My understanding is that due to the 'unique' way TWP we're organised, they struggled to get government support through the various schemes, so costs were substantial, and they have sympathy for that. But I think it would be a little blind to ignore the fact that their start to life in SL had been a car crash and they put all their eggs in the SBW basket. 

[Derwent]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Live on radio Manchester the good Doc said he was ready to join his good friend Mr Beaumont at Leigh, also through his then Missus he was going  to buy Bradford considering both fell flat, there must have been something amiss? 

You had a lucky escape given that he is now officially bankrupt.

[fighting irish]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

So walk away and leave people high and dry, players and businesses who could very well not afford it, this is about principles, didn't take you to have the same mindset.

I hope he gets used with interest, but he will probably not pay it.

I'm not saying it was right to leave people ''high and dry'' 'Arry, but I'm not prepared to turn a blind eye to the way he was treated by Robert Elstone, as if it was immaterial in his decision to stop pouring millions into the game. 

[gingerjon]

6 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

I'm not saying it was right to leave people ''high and dry'' 'Arry, but I'm not prepared to turn a blind eye to the way he was treated by Robert Elstone, as if it was immaterial in his decision to stop pouring millions into the game. 

He has promised the players that he will pay them several times since that date.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

He has promised the players that he will pay them several times since that date.

Yeah, but the nasty RFL punished him for racism and Elstone wasn't convinced by a business plan that involved not paying people. 

[Kayakman]

6 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

In business you do what you consider to be right at the time, sometimes just on a gut feeling most you win but there are those inevitable losses.

What I hated most was those like Argyle who having already recieved goods/services withheld payment, and also like Argyle it was those who could afford to pay who stretched it out the furthest, big companies like British Nuclear Fuels (BNF), Astra Zeneca, British Aerospace and quite a number of the 'Big Pharma' companies were the worst. I once was told by Purchase Ledger at BNF that they were changing terms from 30 days following end of month delivery to 90 days end of month and it wasn't negotiable, big mistake on their part.

I manufactured some very critical components which by the nature of the product had to be manufactured to requirement on a "just in time" delivery. These were Elastomers (types of rubbers) which I held the configuration of the ingredients which had a very limited shelf life and had to be moulded soon after it was compounded, I put up the price 10 fold and was confronted about it to which I answered non negotiable it would have cost BNF £millions in downtime had they not received the components. They soon switched back to the original terms of business.

I've always said to posters on here. "Don't mess with Harry Stottle."

What a sad end to the Toronto Saga.  Woe am I.

[Toby Chopra]

1 hour ago, fighting irish said:

I'm not saying it was right to leave people ''high and dry'' 'Arry, but I'm not prepared to turn a blind eye to the way he was treated by Robert Elstone, as if it was immaterial in his decision to stop pouring millions into the game. 

Like most things Robert Elstone did, it made very little difference overall.

[Toby Chopra]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

Obviously people like this are often pretty secretive about their wealth, but I wonder how poor he and his business are at the moment? 

My understanding is that due to the 'unique' way TWP we're organised, they struggled to get government support through the various schemes, so costs were substantial, and they have sympathy for that. But I think it would be a little blind to ignore the fact that their start to life in SL had been a car crash and they put all their eggs in the SBW basket. 

Agree. Perhaps, if COVID hadn't happened, there was some sort of plan that would have monetised a global rugby star to fix the holes in the TWP business model, but the price of that was a much worse team overall, and that rarely ends well. 

I look back on it all with a fond memory of idealistic dreams, like most things pre-2020!

Edited March 10 by Toby Chopra

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, Toby Chopra said:

Agree. Perhaps, if COVID hadn't happened, there was some sort of plan that would have monetised a global rugby star to fix the holes in the TWP business model, but the price of that was a much worse team overall, and that rarely ends well. 

I look back on it all with a fond memory of idealistic dreams, like most things pre-2020!

Without Toronto, there is no London beating Toronto in Toronto 4-2.

And, for that, I will be forever grateful to them.

[ATLANTISMAN]

Having met 2 of the people mentioned here my personal opinion.

David Argyle very hospitable nice guy who really believed in the project and was extremely unlucky to be hit by covid and a downturn in his business empire

Derek awesome self made person with one of the biggest passionate hearts in rugby league 

Koucash never met him apart from emails when he pretended to be someone else strange a good friend of mine is in the racing business where he was well known however no-one really understood where the wealth came from.

P

 

 

 

 

Edited March 10 by ATLANTISMAN

[fighting irish]

38 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Yeah, but the nasty RFL punished him for racism and Elstone wasn't convinced by a business plan that involved not paying people. 

I can't really understand your motivation to have a dig but so be it.

Do you really think he submitted a business plan which said he wasn't going to pay his staff?

WTF are you on about?

Since we are all engaging in speculation, without any real knowledge of what went on, here's my take on it. I'd say, early on he decided he'd put up say 20 million dollars. It kicks off like a house on fire, everything is going great.

He employs a management team and tells them you've got 20 million to make this thing work. Come to me, as the money looks like it's running out?

Then he gets treated appallingly and made to feel as welcome as a fart in a spacesuit by Robert Elstone, so he thinks, ''That's it, they've had the budget, I'm not spending any more on a game that just doesn't want us, so I'm out.''

The company, that he bankrolled, ran out of money (because he turned off the tap) and the management team couldn't make it viable, so it went bankrupt.

It's the bankrupt company (and perhaps, it's inept management team) that owes the players and all the other suppliers some money, not Argyle. Your experience in business should tell you that such stories (of limited companies going bust and leaving unpaid debts) are very common, in business.

Your characterisation of ''the nasty Mr Elstone'', in an attempt to minimise his part in it (and/or to ridicule me and my opinion) is both childish and churlish, but if it suits you to just blame ''nasty Mr Argyle'' then fill yer boots. 

[Dave T]

19 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

I can't really understand your motivation to have a dig but so be it.

Do you really think he submitted a business plan which said he wasn't going to pay his staff?

WTF are you on about?

Since we are all engaging in speculation, without any real knowledge of what went on, here's my take on it. I'd say, early on he decided he'd put up say 20 million dollars. It kicks off like a house on fire, everything is going great.

He employs a management team and tells them you've got 20 million to make this thing work. Come to me, as the money looks like it's running out?

Then he gets treated appallingly and made to feel as welcome as a fart in a spacesuit by Robert Elstone, so he thinks, ''That's it, they've had the budget, I'm not spending any more on a game that just doesn't want us, so I'm out.''

The company, that he bankrolled, ran out of money (because he turned off the tap) and the management team couldn't make it viable, so it went bankrupt.

It's the bankrupt company (and perhaps, it's inept management team) that owes the players and all the other suppliers some money, not Argyle. Your experience in business should tell you that such stories (of limited companies going bust and leaving unpaid debts) are very common, in business.

Your characterisation of ''the nasty Mr Elstone'', in an attempt to minimise his part in it (and/or to ridicule me and my opinion) is both childish and churlish, but if it suits you to just blame ''nasty Mr Argyle'' then fill yer boots. 

I have plenty of sympathy with anyone that holds the view that covid made it impossible for them to continue. As per one of my previous posts, I believe they had trouble accessing furlough schemes etc and it was challenging for them. 

I think anyone who justifies what happened as an outcome of Elstone's comments is bang wrong. It's a really bad take to justify not paying debts because they didn't feel welcome. 

People should be clear why they believe these players haven't been paid. It's either covid or it's Elstone. 

[fighting irish]

12 hours ago, Dave T said:

I have plenty of sympathy with anyone that holds the view that covid made it impossible for them to continue. As per one of my previous posts, I believe they had trouble accessing furlough schemes etc and it was challenging for them. 

I think anyone who justifies what happened as an outcome of Elstone's comments is bang wrong. It's a really bad take to justify not paying debts because they didn't feel welcome. 

People should be clear why they believe these players haven't been paid. It's either covid or it's Elstone. 

Well Dave, of course you are entitled to your opinion. It's clear we disagree. We needn't say more. 

[Harry Stottle]

14 hours ago, Toby Chopra said:

Like most things Robert Elstone did, it made very little difference overall.

I have always said and will never be convinced otherwise, Robert Elstone was the marionette who took instruction, advice and acted on what he was told to do by the string pulling masters at the head of certain SuperLeague clubs, the ones that hired him and effectively shoved him to resign once his worth was over.

Funny isn't it we fast forward a few years and people are aghast at the possibility of Catalan being told they will have to pay for the travel expenses of all visiting clubs to Perpignan, does anyone really think that this is soley the decision of Rhodri Jones. Or is there any possibility that the chairman of the SL clubs could be involved, Robert Elstone MK2 anyone.

[fighting irish]

18 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

So walk away and leave people high and dry, players and businesses who could very well not afford it, this is about principles, didn't take you to have the same mindset.

I hope he gets used with interest, but he will probably not pay it.

 

22 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I have always said and will never be convinced otherwise, Robert Elstone was the marionette who took instruction, advice and acted on what he was told to do by the string pulling masters at the head of certain SuperLeague clubs, the ones that hired him and effectively shoved him to resign once his worth was over.

Funny isn't it we fast forward a few years and people are aghast at the possibility of Catalan being told they will have to pay for the travel expenses of all visiting clubs to Perpignan, does anyone really think that this is soley the decision of Rhodri Jones. Or is there any possibility that the chairman of the SL clubs could be involved, Robert Elstone MK2 anyone.

Come on 'Arry. I agree that we should pay our suppliers and employees, no argument.

I must say though that while remaking this point you deftly sidestepped my question. What would you have done?

Suppose you entered a competition and invested 20 million in good faith and then it became apparent (I'm not blaming Elstone for this, as I agree he was little more than a mouthpiece) that your club has no future in this competition.

What's the point in carrying on pouring money into this pointless, bottomless pit?

So come on mate, what would you have done, if your were Argyle, 20 million down, when the double-cross became evident? 

[Kayakman]

15 hours ago, Toby Chopra said:

Like most things Robert Elstone did, it made very little difference overall.

This is incorrect.....I also met and talked with Argyle numerous times and his heart was in the project...when Elstone turned on him that was the beginning of the end....Elstone (and his backers) did not want Toronto in and they made sure they would not be welcome to stay, they went out of their way to make this so...the other problems were fixable but this one, sadly , was not.

The fix was in....and I had a front row seat to it.,, watched it, observed it and now have commented on it. 

Da facts is da facts.

[Harry Stottle]

5 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

 

Come on 'Arry. I agree that we should pay our suppliers and employees, no argument.

I must say though that while remaking this point you deftly sidestepped my question. What would you have done?

Suppose you entered a competition and invested 20 million in good faith and then it became apparent (I'm not blaming Elstone for this, as I agree he was little more than a mouthpiece) that your club has no future in this competition.

What's the point in carrying on pouring money into this pointless, bottomless pit?

So come on mate, what would you have done, if your were Argyle, 20 million down, when the double-cross became evident? 

Let me say what my take was with our business, my instruction to our 'Bought Ledger' was that we paid our suppliers/service providers as per the terms of our mutual trading contract, likewise I expected to paid from our customers on the same agreement, on both these activities you hopefully keep your cash flow situation at a good equilibrium. But that does not always happen, cumalitivly I lost well into and over 6 figures over the years through unpaid invoices.

If you are suggesting to me that after being accepted into SL and then the RFL/Mr Elstone or whoever made it plain to Mr Argyle that he was not wanted and only then he took his bat and ball home and didn't pay his Bill's, I would suggest to you that he wasn't paying his Suppliers/Service Providers for a good period of time before he took umbridge in fact the debts that were accruing were for goods from suppliers and services from his players that had already been recieved and utilised and he had an obligation to pay those Bill's in effect he wasn't and as you say "What's the point in carrying on pouring money into this pointless, bottomless pit?" New debts would have come later had he carried on financing TWP.

In fact I will say it he has robbed people, as has anyone who buys anything utilises it and subsequently doesn't pay for it.

[Kayakman]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

Let me say what my take was with our business, my instruction to our 'Bought Ledger' was that we paid our suppliers/service providers as per the terms of our mutual trading contract, likewise I expected to paid from our customers on the same agreement, on both these activities you hopefully keep your cash flow situation at a good equilibrium. But that does not always happen, cumalitivly I lost well into and over 6 figures over the years through unpaid invoices.

If you are suggesting to me that after being accepted into SL and then the RFL/Mr Elstone or whoever made it plain to Mr Argyle that he was not wanted and only then he took his bat and ball home and didn't pay his Bill's, I would suggest to you that he wasn't paying his Suppliers/Service Providers for a good period of time before he took umbridge in fact the debts that were accruing were for goods from suppliers and services from his players that had already been recieved and utilised and he had an obligation to pay those Bill's in effect he wasn't and as you say "What's the point in carrying on pouring money into this pointless, bottomless pit?" New debts would have come later had he carried on financing TWP.

In fact I will say it he has robbed people, as has anyone who buys anything utilises it and subsequently doesn't pay for it.

We all know that a person should always pay their bills Harry...and we all know that not everybody always does.  Its a tough world out there but what they did, welcoming Toronto in and then Toronto does all the groundwork for a number of years (with large outlays of cash) and then shutting the door on Toronto in a backstab...well that is poorly done and there is plenty of blame to go around on this one.

You must also recall that there was deal to pay the players and keep Toronto going but this was also quickly nixed by SL at the time.  A great opportunity was missed by SL on this one.....more than just one character to blame.   As for myself, I know Elstone had his marching orders and mind made up well beforehand.....he (and his bosses) bear a large part of the responsibility on this one clearly.

[fighting irish]

2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Let me say what my take was with our business, my instruction to our 'Bought Ledger' was that we paid our suppliers/service providers as per the terms of our mutual trading contract, likewise I expected to paid from our customers on the same agreement, on both these activities you hopefully keep your cash flow situation at a good equilibrium. But that does not always happen, cumalitivly I lost well into and over 6 figures over the years through unpaid invoices.

If you are suggesting to me that after being accepted into SL and then the RFL/Mr Elstone or whoever made it plain to Mr Argyle that he was not wanted and only then he took his bat and ball home and didn't pay his Bill's, I would suggest to you that he wasn't paying his Suppliers/Service Providers for a good period of time before he took umbridge in fact the debts that were accruing were for goods from suppliers and services from his players that had already been recieved and utilised and he had an obligation to pay those Bill's in effect he wasn't and as you say "What's the point in carrying on pouring money into this pointless, bottomless pit?" New debts would have come later had he carried on financing TWP.

In fact I will say it he has robbed people, as has anyone who buys anything utilises it and subsequently doesn't pay for it.

Forgive me 'Arry but I've made my ''take on it'' quite plain and I think the scant evidence we have, supports my hypothesis.

Let me ask, did you operate under the protection of limited liability status 'Arry?

Gladly, you seem to have operated profitably, over the course of your business life, despite some significant defaults on the part of your customers, congratulations!

If however, your business suffered a catastrophic deviation from your business plan and nose dived below the break even line, for a sustained period of time, your business would have gone into administration and ultimately bankruptcy.

Would you have sheltered under your limited liability status?

Or done the heroic thing and sold your home, put your family into the poor house, just to pay your creditors?

Almost all businesses in the UK operate as limited companies, as you well know, and under the circumstances mentioned above when things turn down, ''the company'' carries the liabilities, not the founder/directors of the company. The owners liability extends only to the capital invested. Under the circumstances, Argyles decision to stop investing is quite reasonable.

I made it quite clear that I thought the Wolfpack company owes the money, not Argyle. So my ''position'' is quite clear, completely unambiguous. 

[Harry Stottle]

39 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

Forgive me 'Arry but I've made my ''take on it'' quite plain and I think the scant evidence we have, supports my hypothesis.

Let me ask, did you operate under the protection of limited liability status 'Arry?

Gladly, you seem to have operated profitably, over the course of your business life, despite some significant defaults on the part of your customers, congratulations!

If however, your business suffered a catastrophic deviation from your business plan and nose dived below the break even line, for a sustained period of time, your business would have gone into administration and ultimately bankruptcy.

Would you have sheltered under your limited liability status?

Or done the heroic thing and sold your home, put your family into the poor house, just to pay your creditors?

Almost all businesses in the UK operate as limited companies, as you well know, and under the circumstances mentioned above when things turn down, ''the company'' carries the liabilities, not the founder/directors of the company. The owners liability extends only to the capital invested. Under the circumstances, Argyles decision to stop investing is quite reasonable.

I made it quite clear that I thought the Wolfpack company owes the money, not Argyle. So my ''position'' is quite clear, completely unambiguous. 

Yes we were a Limited Company Irish, but in the case of TWP do you not believe the debts were accrued and not paid for a period of time before Mr Elstone had his instruction (my interpretation) to tell him that TWP were no longer wanted?

Like you said earlier to @Dave T we have a difference of opinion, let's park it here.

Incidently, we sold the business in 2009 to an American company who were situated across the water of lake Ontario from Toronto.

[fighting irish]

Just now, Harry Stottle said:

Yes we were a Limited Company Irish, but in the case of TWP do you not believe the debts were accrued and not paid for a period of time before Mr Elstone had his instruction (my interpretation) to tell him that TWP were no longer wanted?

Like you said earlier to @Dave T we have a difference of opinion, let's park it here.

Incidently, we sold the business in 2009 to an American company who were situated across the water of lake Ontario from Toronto.

I'm sorry mate, I don't know what happened when, so I might have the cart before the horse. cheers, 

[Kayakman]

3 hours ago, fighting irish said:

I'm sorry mate, I don't know what happened when, so I might have the cart before the horse. cheers, 

This is an interesting point....there were a couple of supplier getting paid (also players) problems early on.  Some problems in Championship but the money was flowing.  I remember seeing a short clip of Elstone, early on, walking down a corridor and the reporter asked him about Toronto and he said something to the effect of "Never going to happen...how many times does an owner have to be told he is not welcome".   It began to devolve from there....he made his position (and that of the majority SL owners)  quite clear.

I think the take of what Fighting Irish says in his post is most correct account of what actually occurred.

Edited March 11 by Kayakman