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How to restore the magic of the Challenge Cup (Merged Threads)

Martyn Sadler
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sam4731

sam4731

Posted
Posted
22 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

We're a professional sport. Our golden age should be worth a bit more than these truly awful figures:#

What is the prize money on offer?

Depending on how far you get in the cup, you receive a losing prize money fund for each round, according to documentation seen by Love Rugby League which is sent to clubs. That figure is as follows:

  • 1st round losers: £0
  • 2nd round losers: £500
  • 3rd round losers: £750
  • 4th round losers: £1,000
  • 5th round losers: £1,250
  • 6th round losers: £1,500
  • QF losers: £8,000
  • SF losers: £18,000
  • Runners-up: £35,000
  • Winners: £100,000

I've included some other sporting knockout competitions prize money for winning just 1 match of the competition proper, (excluding qualifying) which could be compared to the £500 2nd round losers get or the £1500 that teams get if they go out at the stage when SL teams enter.

Wimbledon £55,000

FA Cup £41,000

PDC World Darts Championships £15,000

World Snooker Championships: £30,000

Womens FA Cup: £6000

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The Blues Ox
The Blues Ox

Open draw and as many teams in from the top 3 divisions is a must in my opinion. At the moment its basically a SL competition that 4 Championship teams get the opportunity to play in. The end result w

phiggins
phiggins

Moving the final away from Wembley will be the start of a slide, just like internationals have slid this century. Do other sports obsess so much over the number of empty seats rather than the people t

whatmichaelsays
whatmichaelsays

This is my take on this as well. The idea that we can "downsize" the CC Final to greater profile, relevance and commercial success just doesn't make sense to me.  I think it's a fair criticism to

Dunbar

Dunbar

Posted
Posted
36 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

We're a professional sport. Our golden age should be worth a bit more than these truly awful figures:#

What is the prize money on offer?

Depending on how far you get in the cup, you receive a losing prize money fund for each round, according to documentation seen by Love Rugby League which is sent to clubs. That figure is as follows:

  • 1st round losers: £0
  • 2nd round losers: £500
  • 3rd round losers: £750
  • 4th round losers: £1,000
  • 5th round losers: £1,250
  • 6th round losers: £1,500
  • QF losers: £8,000
  • SF losers: £18,000
  • Runners-up: £35,000
  • Winners: £100,000

I have to be honest, I would be delighted if the golden age of our sport was defined by something other than money.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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gingerjon

gingerjon

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Dunbar said:

I have to be honest, I would be delighted if the golden age of our sport was defined by something other than money.

It's a professional sport. One of the most demanding there is. But there's no magic when clubs are losing money on what should be prestigious ties - and that losing money then reflects what happens across the game.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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gingerjon

gingerjon

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, sam4731 said:

I've included some other sporting knockout competitions prize money for winning just 1 match of the competition proper, (excluding qualifying) which could be compared to the £500 2nd round losers get or the £1500 that teams get if they go out at the stage when SL teams enter.

Wimbledon £55,000

FA Cup £41,000

PDC World Darts Championships £15,000

World Snooker Championships: £30,000

Womens FA Cup: £6000

The runner up of the FA Vase - that's the competition for Division 9 and 10 clubs - will make £31,600 in prize money. Our top tier, elite knock out competition, gives it runner up £35,000.

There's a reason why clubs in the non leagues of football make a big deal of the Vase - it has magic and money.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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Dunbar

Dunbar

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

It's a professional sport. One of the most demanding there is. But there's no magic when clubs are losing money on what should be prestigious ties - and that losing money then reflects what happens across the game.

It's also a demanding sport for the amateur players.

I watch the Southern Conference teams a lot and the biggest reaction at the end of the game (by miles) that I see is when they win an early Challenge Cup tie against one of the National Conference teams.  And I don't think the prize money has anything to do with it.

Some people come back to money when they think of sport, but in my experience it is far from the majority. 

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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sam4731

sam4731

Posted
Posted
11 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I have to be honest, I would be delighted if the golden age of our sport was defined by something other than money.

Ask London Skolars, West Wales Raiders, Gloucestershire All Golds, Hemel Stags etc if the golden age of our sport pays the leccy bills.

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RigbyLuger

RigbyLuger

Posted
Posted
19 minutes ago, sam4731 said:

I've included some other sporting knockout competitions prize money for winning just 1 match of the competition proper, (excluding qualifying) which could be compared to the £500 2nd round losers get or the £1500 that teams get if they go out at the stage when SL teams enter.

Wimbledon £55,000

FA Cup £41,000

PDC World Darts Championships £15,000

World Snooker Championships: £30,000

Womens FA Cup: £6000

How are we paying to increase the prize money?

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gingerjon

gingerjon

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Some people come back to money when they think of sport, but in my experience it is far from the majority. 

For the moments on the field - I very rarely think of the money.

For the reasons why the Cup is no longer a priority, and will remain that way, and why the sport has fewer clubs, fewer participants and the smallest reach I can remember - I very often think of the money because it's the most important aspect and, in our small world, all linked.

Just now, RigbyLuger said:

How are we paying to increase the prize money?

Well, we can't so we're stuck with clubs losing money by participating.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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sam4731

sam4731

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Posted
1 minute ago, RigbyLuger said:

How are we paying to increase the prize money?

Well I would argue that Fred Done is getting a pretty good deal out of his sponsorship of basically all of rugby league at the moment.

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Dunbar

Dunbar

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, sam4731 said:

Ask London Skolars, West Wales Raiders, Gloucestershire All Golds, Hemel Stags etc if the golden age of our sport pays the leccy bills.

Do you think the prize money in the Challenge Cup led to their downfall?

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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Dunbar

Dunbar

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

For the reasons why the Cup is no longer a priority, and will remain that way, and why the sport has fewer clubs, fewer participants and the smallest reach I can remember - I very often think of the money because it's the most important aspect and, in our small world, all linked.

I will ignore the latter part as you have rolled up some of the challenges the game faces in order to try and emphasise a more specific point.

Do you think the prize money on offer is a major part of the downturn of the Challenge Cup relative to its previous prestige?

Or, to put it another way, if the sport raised the prize money for the Cup, in what way will that raise the profile/prestige of the competition?

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"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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sam4731

sam4731

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Posted
5 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Do you think the prize money in the Challenge Cup led to their downfall?

I'm talking of a far wider problem with money in the game and how its divided up.

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Dunbar

Dunbar

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, sam4731 said:

I'm talking of a far wider problem with money in the game and how its divided up.

OK.

I'm not.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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gingerjon

gingerjon

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Do you think the prize money on offer is a major part of the downturn of the Challenge Cup relative to its previous prestige?

Yes. A massive part of it.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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Damien

Damien

Posted
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I will ignore the latter part as you have rolled up some of the challenges the game faces in order to try and emphasise a more specific point.

Do you think the prize money on offer is a major part of the downturn of the Challenge Cup relative to its previous prestige?

Or, to put it another way, if the sport raised the prize money for the Cup, in what way will that raise the profile/prestige of the competition?

Surely the reduction in prize money is reflective of the status and decline in the Challenge Cup and is linked?

Prize money being less than 25 years ago, not even taking into account what a huge reduction this is in real terms, is a direct consequence of the game's failure in that time.

Thriving competitions certainly don't see a reduction like this. The Challenge Cup has declined in every measurable way. More prize money would certainly help elevate it but so would other things too. Little sponsorship value, which ultimately dictates the amount of prize money, also has a direct consequence when it comes to things like the pre-match entertainment, marketing etc.

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Dunbar

Dunbar

Posted
Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Yes. A massive part of it.

Fair enough.

Maybe I am being naive.  My profile picture is taken from the Challenge Cup final in 1985 when just under 100,000 people watched one of the best finals ever.  I didn't realise that the whole competition and occasion was dependent upon the prize money involved.  In fact, I am ashamed to say I don't even know how much Wigan got for winning the Cup that day.

Edited by Dunbar

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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Dunbar

Dunbar

Posted
Posted
Just now, Damien said:

Surely the reduction in prize money is reflective of the status and decline in the Challenge Cup and is linked?

Prize money being less than 25 years ago, not even taking into account what a huge reduction this is in real terms, is a direct consequence of the game's failure in that time.

Thriving competitions certainly don't see a reduction like this. The Challenge Cup has declined in every measurable way. More prize money would certainly help elevate it but so would other things too. Little sponsorship value  which ultimately dictates prize money, also has a direct consequence when it comes to things like the pre-match entertainment, marketing etc.

That is not the argument being made.

The implication is that the competition has suffered because of the prize money on offer, not that the prize money has gone down because the Cup has suffered.  That is a different argument. 

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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Dunbar

Dunbar

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, sam4731 said:

But if you would like an example of how important cup prize money is to teams lower down the pyramid...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68854418

Again.  I will try to be as clear as possible.

Is the reduction in prize money the reason why the Cup has reduced in prestige (and not a consequence of that reduction)?

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"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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Damien

Damien

Posted
Posted
Just now, Dunbar said:

That is not the argument being made.

The implication is that the competition has suffered because of the prize money on offer, not that the prize money has gone down because the Cup has suffered.  That is a different argument. 

I know what the argument is, I was commenting and expanding. As I said, in my opinion, more prize money would help elevate the cup. It is certainly part of the reason it has declined and more money, with at least parity to 1990s levels taking into account inflation, would certainly help restore its prestige.

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sam4731

sam4731

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Again.  I will try to be as clear as possible.

Is the reduction in prize money the reason why the Cup has reduced in prestige (and not a consequence of that reduction)?

Oh I totally agree that the reduction in prize money is a result of the competition losing prestige but the levels that the prize money is at is just embarrassing.

This is meant to be one of the most prestigious competitions in UK sport and the prize money nowhere near reflects it.

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Dunbar

Dunbar

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Damien said:

more money, with at least parity to 1990s levels taking into account inflation, would certainly help restore its prestige.

Can you explain how that would happen.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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Damien

Damien

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Fair enough.

Maybe I am being naive.  My profile picture is taken from the 1985 Challenge Cup final in 1985 when just under 100,000 people watched one of the best finals ever.  I didn't realise that the whole competition and occasion was dependent upon the prize money involved.  In fact, I am ashamed to say I don't even know how much Wigan got for winning the Cup that day.

In those days it was always talked about how much a cup final appearance was worth and how clubs would rather win the cup, or just get to the final, than the league because it was worth so much to them. Things like the huge player bonuses on offer where also a major incentive and again well talked about. Clubs and players treated the competition accordingly.

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Dunbar

Dunbar

Posted
Posted
Just now, sam4731 said:

Oh I totally agree that the reduction in prize money is a result of the competition losing prestige but the levels that the prize money is at is just embarrassing.

This is meant to be one of the most prestigious competitions in UK sport and the prize money nowhere near reflects it.

Yes.  Very much agreed.

I would love teams and players to get more from playing (and winning) and I would love clubs to get more prize money at every round.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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Dunbar

Dunbar

Posted
Posted
Just now, Damien said:

In those days it was always talked about how much a cup final appearance was worth and how clubs would rather win the cup, or just get to the final, than the league because it was worth so much to them. Things like the huge player bonuses on offer where also a major incentive and again well talked about. Clubs and players treated the competition accordingly.

Yes, as I said on my first post on this thread, there has been a shift from Cup to League as a focus for the clubs and fans due to the saturation of coverage.

But, with respect, I think you are mixing cause and effect here.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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