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  • 2 weeks later...

Posted
On 27/11/2024 at 09:36, Worzel said:

Ticket sales were absolutely woeful, it is a challenging environment but there were a number of key errors made that a few people on here called out in advance. The outcome was all quite predictable. Mick Hogan was heavily involved in the ticketing and marketing strategy as a consultant, and I told him my concerns directly. They were confident. I hated to say "I told you so" afterwards, but... 

Going for an inclusive tournament that created many blowouts and robbed the public of the best v the best was unforgivable 

Posted
2 minutes ago, iangidds said:

Going for an inclusive tournament that created many blowouts and robbed the public of the best v the best was unforgivable 

If somebody could explain how England, having only lost by a single score to Australia in the last World Cup Final and with plenty of chances to score themselves, could be deliberately be kept apart from them for the subsequent 7 years then I'd genuinely like to hear the rationale.

Competitive matches between the biggest names and best teams is what sells tickets. Then you can afford to put on other countries' matches alongside that, using the revenue the big ones generate. 

  • Like 1
Posted
1 hour ago, Worzel said:

If somebody could explain how England, having only lost by a single score to Australia in the last World Cup Final and with plenty of chances to score themselves, could be deliberately be kept apart from them for the subsequent 7 years then I'd genuinely like to hear the rationale.

Competitive matches between the biggest names and best teams is what sells tickets. Then you can afford to put on other countries' matches alongside that, using the revenue the big ones generate. 

To be fair, there was meant to be an Ashes Down Under in 2019, then one was cancelled in 2020 here. 

Posted
2 hours ago, Dave T said:

To be fair, there was meant to be an Ashes Down Under in 2019, then one was cancelled in 2020 here. 

Yea but my issue is with keeping England and Australia apart in the last World Cup draw, when the two things you describe had already happened. That’s madness on a stick. 

  • Like 1
Posted
8 hours ago, Worzel said:

Yea but my issue is with keeping England and Australia apart in the last World Cup draw, when the two things you describe had already happened. That’s madness on a stick. 

The ghost of 2000 looms large. One of the many failures of that tournament was starting* with England v Australia and England not turning up.

* I know it wasn't technically but...

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Worzel said:

Yea but my issue is with keeping England and Australia apart in the last World Cup draw, when the two things you describe had already happened. That’s madness on a stick. 

I did write a longer message and forgot to post!

I don't think us not playing Oz wad an issue tbh. The super group format wasn't exactly great and I think it was the right thing to do to move away from forcing that game in the schedule.

If we look at the opener, the crowd was similar to the opener of 2013 versus the Aussies (which had dirt cheap tickets and also featured Wales), was higher than the 2000 opener versus the Aussies, and the 1995 opener versus the Aussies. I think the appeal of the Aussies is overstated tbh.

In terms of attractive fixtures, the England games did fine (in the context of an expensive and poorly sold tournament), we had Samoa vs Tonga, Australia vs NZ, Eng in the opener, plus let's be honest, if it went with rankings it would have been England versus Aus in the final.

There is a fair argument that we stretched ourselves too much in moving to 16 teams, and I think the biggest issue is that the weak teams are further behind than ever - in 2013 Scotland stood up well (beating Tonga), Cooks had a close one versus Tonga instead of the 2022 drubbing, France put up an effort etc. 

The lesser games were the star of the show in 2013, but tbh, they just didn't live up to expectations in 2022, and I thinknit showed the lack of development for many teams over the last decade.

Edited by Dave T
  • Like 2
Posted

Basic supply and demand, and until we have the demand we must control supply. An England v Aus opener in a 40k stadium would have greater demand than supply - you put all tickets on sale early and fans know if they don’t commit they miss out. The price is then set for the tournament around the clamour for tickets - the emerging nations need to operate like 2013, get them into a mix of new areas like Bristol or at non SL venues like Rochdale Worky and LSV at the time but just the one game - I can’t recall how many poor fixtures the LSV got last time creating little must see games or local interest.

Posted
6 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

Basic supply and demand, and until we have the demand we must control supply. An England v Aus opener in a 40k stadium would have greater demand than supply - you put all tickets on sale early and fans know if they don’t commit they miss out. The price is then set for the tournament around the clamour for tickets - the emerging nations need to operate like 2013, get them into a mix of new areas like Bristol or at non SL venues like Rochdale Worky and LSV at the time but just the one game - I can’t recall how many poor fixtures the LSV got last time creating little must see games or local interest.

We got 43k at Newcastle versus Samoa with higher prices than anything we've seen in RL before.

  • Like 2
Posted
1 hour ago, Dave T said:

We got 43k at Newcastle versus Samoa with higher prices than anything we've seen in RL before.

Big discounts were available though Dave. So imagine no discounts and 50,000 folk fighting for 43000 tickets. First ashes test at Everton’s new ground 53000 capacity second at Emirates third??

Posted
15 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

Big discounts were available though Dave. So imagine no discounts and 50,000 folk fighting for 43000 tickets. First ashes test at Everton’s new ground 53000 capacity second at Emirates third??

Do we play Ashes Tests in World Cups?

  • Like 1

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

Posted
29 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

Big discounts were available though Dave. So imagine no discounts and 50,000 folk fighting for 43000 tickets. First ashes test at Everton’s new ground 53000 capacity second at Emirates third??

The average cost for that WC opener was far, far higher than any Ashes matches I'd ever been to in RL.

They were actually notoriously tight on the discounts.

Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Dave T said:

I did write a longer message and forgot to post!

I don't think us not playing Oz wad an issue tbh. The super group format wasn't exactly great and I think it was the right thing to do to move away from forcing that game in the schedule.

If we look at the opener, the crowd was similar to the opener of 2013 versus the Aussies (which had dirt cheap tickets and also featured Wales), was higher than the 2000 opener versus the Aussies, and the 1995 opener versus the Aussies. I think the appeal of the Aussies is overstated tbh.

In terms of attractive fixtures, the England games did fine (in the context of an expensive and poorly sold tournament), we had Samoa vs Tonga, Australia vs NZ, Eng in the opener, plus let's be honest, if it went with rankings it would have been England versus Aus in the final.

There is a fair argument that we stretched ourselves too much in moving to 16 teams, and I think the biggest issue is that the weak teams are further behind than ever - in 2013 Scotland stood up well (beating Tonga), Cooks had a close one versus Tonga instead of the 2022 drubbing, France put up an effort etc. 

The lesser games were the star of the show in 2013, but tbh, they just didn't live up to expectations in 2022, and I thinknit showed the lack of development for many teams over the last decade.

If we had England playing Australia on a regular basis outside of World Cups I'd be inclined to agree with you, but we knew going into the tournament that we hadn't (and knew we had no visibility of anything happening afterwards either). I think in that context, not putting your best product on show is a major error. No ambitious promoter in any other sport would allow it.

Let's be honest, no matter what we might say to others outside of forums like this, you and I both know  really that Rugby League World Cups are not "proper" tournaments in the way the football and rugby union ones are, so because of that I think they do need an element of proactive, gerrmandered structures to enable the right story to be told to sell the tournament.  

Edited by Worzel
Typo
  • Like 1
Posted
12 minutes ago, Worzel said:

If we had England playing Australia on a regular basis outside of World Cups I'd be inclined to agree with you, but we knew going into the tournament that we hadn't (and knew we had no visibility of anything happening afterwards either). I think in that context, not putting your best product on show is a major error. No ambitious promoter in any other sport would allow it.

Let's be honest, no matter what we might say to others outside of forums like this, you and I both know  really that Rugby League World Cups are not "proper" tournaments in the way the football and rugby union ones are, so because of that I think they do need an element of proactive, gerrmandered structures to enable the right story to be told to sell the tournament.  

We literally gerrymandered the tournament to get an England v Oz final and then England clucked it up.

I’m not sure you can get more rugby league than that.

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Worzel said:

If we had England playing Australia on a regular basis outside of World Cups I'd be inclined to agree with you, but we knew going into the tournament that we hadn't (and knew we had no visibility of anything happening afterwards either). I think in that context, not putting your best product on show is a major error. No ambitious promoter in any other sport would allow it.

Let's be honest, no matter what we might say to others outside of forums like this, you and I both know  really that Rugby League World Cups are not "proper" tournaments in the way the football and rugby union ones are, so because of that I think they do need an element of proactive, gerrmandered structures to enable the right story to be told to sell the tournament.  

I've been comfortable with creative seeding in the past, but I think we had now reached the point where we could move on. And tbh, the numbers for England games stacked up. They haven't been bettered when we have played the Aussies, so I don't think there is a compelling argument that not playing the Aussies hampered the tournament.

Had we got 15k at the opener I'd agree, but we didn't, we got as many as we have for games versus Australia.

Plus, we did have a plan to play the Aussies.

But, and this is a big but, and where I urge caution around the Ashes, the Aussie matches are really not that huge in demand.

Edited by Dave T
Posted
1 hour ago, Dave T said:

But, and this is a big but, and where I urge caution around the Ashes, the Aussie matches are really not that huge in demand.

If that's true, it's only because we've let our #1 product for the general sports audience wither on the vine by not playing any meaningful matches for years and years. 

  • Like 2
Posted
1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

We literally gerrymandered the tournament to get an England v Oz final and then England clucked it up.

I’m not sure you can get more rugby league than that.

True, I'll give you that one 🤣

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