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'haven v toronto

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13 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

Great post, but you can't expect this experiment to be left alone for up to 15 years without analysis and comment. 

I dont expect people not to analyse it but 2 games in is ridiculous to say they havent played anyone.. and not a single game at home to see what the Canadians are making of it.. in time we should see what is happening with crowds and junior/amateur development and if the plans for the college/high school football players transitioning across are working/happening.. I am also sure over the coming years Perez will be analysing (though in his world with a z) all of this probably more than anyone else, if he is going to get this to work properly he will have to make sure he is all over it. 

I have no issue with a badged up team of Champ/champ 1 players.. I also would love to see any expansion team have resources thrown at them to get success early which helps to excite the area they are in with success, but I am aware this attitude upsets many many people who would see it as sacrilage 

(as an aside, based in Sheffield and a Sheffield Eagle fan I am still planning on taking my 8 year old son to the Toronto v Doncaster match (and I wouldnt go to watch Doncaster play normally if you paid me)  simply because I believe Toronto will work and I think it would be great in years to come to be able to say you were there in their first season, no matter what the make up of the team is, maybe I am just a hopeless happy clappy romantic)

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3 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

That's fair enough to a point. your right, and I agree with that. 

But Early times pass quickly and for the rest of this season they will run with an English team. They are likely to then be promoted and Mr. Perez will want to replace many of those Englishmen with more Englishmen and maybe Australians.

He will then I assume go all out to get into Superleague, and if he has the money to spend, the "open cap"  in which if you don't put the funds against directors loans but gift them then you can spend to SL levels, he may well assemble a team of rather good English & Aussie/NZ professional players and who knows?

Maybe Superleague in three years.

By then the whole of the games fans will know that Toronto Wolfpack are not a Canadian team even in part. Hunslet however will still be an English team with English players.

Look at Les Catalans. How impressed were we when they ran with nine Australians and two Englishmen?

They hype that surrounds Toronto is centred on the emergence of Canada as a serious RL playing country, can that hype be sustained all the way to Superleague. I just think that the good people of Whitehaven just didn't swallow the hype and that will be something that will repeat again and again 

Is this negativity? I don't think so, what I think they should do for goodwill purposes is show some of their canadian talent off now, after all the opposition is weak enough with respect to Hemel etc to be able to do that. 

But Perez probably does not want to risk that, what will people say if a team with Canadians can't beat Oxford or Coventry?? What will happen if his brave new dawn ends up staying in CC1? His impetus will be broken.

I can't blame him if he wants to concentrate on a race to the top as soon as possible but I don't think he'll make many friends at the championship clubs along the way, and I don't think he'll care........

Catalans supporters didn't mind and I never heard anyone in Perpignan complain, in fact the opposite.

Whitehaven have to deal with their own problems, whether that be lack of money or a team that can bring success.  Bringing fans in is in their own interests, but watching that game, even though it was a bad day weatherwise,  I never saw more than half a dozen children on the cameras.

Perez knows all too well of the animosity from RU, so he's bound to pick up on the state, promotion and appearance of some 'heartlands' clubs.  I reckon he'll learn what he needs to just by turning up.

 

 

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Couple of points from me.

I find it very strange that a certain poster is giving Toronto stick for not having Canadian players. If ever there was an example of how the Rugby League mentality holds back the game this is it. Sure, give stick to clubs who have had 120 years of RL in the town - but Toronto haven't even played in Canada yet, maybe we should give them chance. We are obsessed with being a local game for local people - maybe Toronto have bigger ideas than that, and I fully expect that Canadians in London couldn't care less whether the players were from Canada or England, they are representing the city of Toronto.

Interestingly, my football team Manchester City played Stoke last Wednesday. Not a single English player in the starting eleven. They seem to be doing ok in a sport that is quite strong.

On the marketing point, of course effective marketing works, that cannot be denied (although it will by at least one poster) - the important word is effective and what that is - and the reality is that it will be different for each team/club/sport etc. I don't buy the quotes from people saying Whitehaven should have got 2k for the game, that seems a little plucked out of fresh air, but there is a charge that if clubs can't make a success of themselves then that is where they are at - if their level is third division with 600 fans, then I suggest we ensure we focus on new areas to grow the game.

Finally - who cares who these players used to play for? The references to Leigh Reserves are no more than trolling.

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Actually, just to add, only in RL would those who are positive about a venture be criticised and dubbed 'happy clappers'.

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53 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

That's fair enough to a point. your right, and I agree with that. 

But Early times pass quickly and for the rest of this season they will run with an English team. They are likely to then be promoted and Mr. Perez will want to replace many of those Englishmen with more Englishmen and maybe Australians.

He will then I assume go all out to get into Superleague, and if he has the money to spend, the "open cap"  in which if you don't put the funds against directors loans but gift them then you can spend to SL levels, he may well assemble a team of rather good English & Aussie/NZ professional players and who knows?

Maybe Superleague in three years.

By then the whole of the games fans will know that Toronto Wolfpack are not a Canadian team even in part. Hunslet however will still be an English team with English players.

Look at Les Catalans. How impressed were we when they ran with nine Australians and two Englishmen?

The hype that surrounds Toronto is centred on the emergence of Canada as a serious RL playing country, can that hype be sustained all the way to Superleague without Canadians. I just think that the good people of Whitehaven just didn't swallow the hype and that will be something that will repeat again and again 

Is this negativity? I don't think so, what I think they should do for goodwill purposes is show some of their canadian talent off now, after all the opposition is weak enough with respect to Hemel etc to be able to do that. 

But Perez probably does not want to risk that, what will people say if a team with Canadians can't beat Oxford or Coventry?? What will happen if his brave new dawn ends up staying in CC1? His impetus will be broken.

I can't blame him if he wants to concentrate on a race to the top as soon as possible but I don't think he'll make many friends at the championship clubs along the way, and I don't think he'll care........

Parky, I look at that part in bold and I am reminded of the old optimistic Parky that the new flat cap wearing Parky so bitterly begrudges.  

Do you think the future viability of Canadian rugby league has a great deal to do with how many Canadians are in that team?  If thirteen world class Canadians emerged in the next couple of years, it would still barely have any effect.

Now, if the club is financially viable, that will matter.


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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5 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

Parky, I look at that part in bold and I am reminded of the old optimistic Parky that the new flat cap wearing Parky so bitterly begrudges.  

Do you think the future viability of Canadian rugby league has a great deal to do with how many Canadians are in that team?  If thirteen world class Canadians emerged in the next couple of years, it would still barely have any effect.

Now, if the club is financially viable, that will matter.

I refer you to self styled Superleague Supremo Ian Lenegan who wants expansion clubs to bring new money into Superleague (e.g. TV contract)  and "Develop their own players"....

The viability of a Toronto in Superleague may well be based on taking the £1,825,000 a year that makes also rans Wakefield Trinity "financialy viable" , they may be viable in SL because they may attract english and australian players to the bright lights of Toronto

As with Toulouse the (unofficial) SL entry rules appear to be bring us extra money and don't steal our players.......

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Just now, The Parksider said:

I refer you to self styled Superleague Supremo Ian Lenegan who wants expansion clubs to bring new money into Superleague (e.g. TV contract)  and "Develop their own players"....

The viability of a Toronto in Superleague may well be based on taking the £1,825,000 a year that makes also rans Wakefield Trinity "financialy viable" , they may be viable in SL because they may attract english and australian players to the bright lights of Toronto

As with Toulouse the (unofficial) SL entry rules appear to be bring us extra money and don't steal our players.......

And if the clubs are to choose between a new source of players or cash, which one do you think they will choose?  And if the club is viable with a smaller slice of the Super League pie, why give more of that money to Wakefield or Leigh instead.

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"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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Just now, Bob8 said:

And if the clubs are to choose between a new source of players or cash, which one do you think they will choose?  And if the club is viable with a smaller slice of the Super League pie, why give more of that money to Wakefield or Leigh instead.

Unsure of your point Bob it appears Lenegan wants more monetary and playing resources as the quid pro quo for such as Toulouse and Toronto getting an SL place

Leigh gave Wigan a good crowd.....

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People on here may scoff, but people consider £15/16 entrance fee to watch Hemel, Oxford, GoG etc too much when they can £2/3 to watch decent amateur games. My team Barrow have assembled a good team this year but because of the fixture list we only play 2 or 3 top teams at home.The rest of our home games are "expansion" teams. No matter how much the club advertises or how much  publicity we recieve through the local press ( which is excellent) you cannot excite the public about Barrow V Hemel, etc. Consequently every year the crowds are starting to drift away. This may come over as a very Luddite, i am very pro expansion but am pointing out the reality.

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30 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

Unsure of your point Bob it appears Lenegan wants more monetary and playing resources as the quid pro quo for such as Toulouse and Toronto getting an SL place

Leigh gave Wigan a good crowd.....

If you judge what people want by what they say, it is going to be a confusing world.  

There are a few clubs that are key to the viability of Super League and valuable to Sky.  The rest make up the numbers.  Leigh might give Wigan a bit more income, Toronto might allow them to have more.  We will see.  


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Couple of points from me.

I find it very strange that a certain poster is giving Toronto stick for not having Canadian players. If ever there was an example of how the Rugby League mentality holds back the game this is it. Sure, give stick to clubs who have had 120 years of RL in the town - but Toronto haven't even played in Canada yet, maybe we should give them chance. We are obsessed with being a local game for local people - maybe Toronto have bigger ideas than that, and I fully expect that Canadians in London couldn't care less whether the players were from Canada or England, they are representing the city of Toronto.

Interestingly, my football team Manchester City played Stoke last Wednesday. Not a single English player in the starting eleven. They seem to be doing ok in a sport that is quite strong.

On the marketing point, of course effective marketing works, that cannot be denied (although it will by at least one poster) - the important word is effective and what that is - and the reality is that it will be different for each team/club/sport etc. I don't buy the quotes from people saying Whitehaven should have got 2k for the game, that seems a little plucked out of fresh air, but there is a charge that if clubs can't make a success of themselves then that is where they are at - if their level is third division with 600 fans, then I suggest we ensure we focus on new areas to grow the game.

Finally - who cares who these players used to play for? The references to Leigh Reserves are no more than trolling.

On the Canadian player issue Toronto use the example of the town's basketball team which started 20 years ago, was ridiculed as basketball was not seen as a Canadian sport and had not been played before and had no Canadian players - two decades on (and that's how long it can take) they have a big following and the are a large number of Canadians not just playing for the Toronto team but in the NBA more generally. This seems a sensible strategy - build interest and attract local people to the sport.

On the Skolars crowd. There were certainly a fair few hundred London based Canadians there - something you are unlikely to see outside of the capital and south east and clearly a chunk of London based northerners who don't watch Skolars or Broncos but did come along to this as it was a one off (I saw a fair few SL shirts). I should also say Skolar and Bronco fans are happy attending each others games (we are just happy someone else down here likes RL) something I guess is not true in other areas. I don't then think our game is a bench mark crowd wise.

 

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21 minutes ago, bar red said:

People on here may scoff, but people consider £15/16 entrance fee to watch Hemel, Oxford, GoG etc too much when they can £2/3 to watch decent amateur games. My team Barrow have assembled a good team this year but because of the fixture list we only play 2 or 3 top teams at home.The rest of our home games are "expansion" teams. No matter how much the club advertises or how much  publicity we recieve through the local press ( which is excellent) you cannot excite the public about Barrow V Hemel, etc. Consequently every year the crowds are starting to drift away. This may come over as a very Luddite, i am very pro expansion but am pointing out the reality.

Interesting point about the lack of competitive games. It works in reverse of course. Why would people go along to watch expansion clubs get clobbered against teams like Barrow? Its difficult because expansion teams need exposure to bigger clubs and, on the whole, the gap is closing but that has to continue so league 1 becomes more competitive.

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21 minutes ago, bar red said:

People on here may scoff, but people consider £15/16 entrance fee to watch Hemel, Oxford, GoG etc too much when they can £2/3 to watch decent amateur games. My team Barrow have assembled a good team this year but because of the fixture list we only play 2 or 3 top teams at home.The rest of our home games are "expansion" teams. No matter how much the club advertises or how much  publicity we recieve through the local press ( which is excellent) you cannot excite the public about Barrow V Hemel, etc. Consequently every year the crowds are starting to drift away. This may come over as a very Luddite, i am very pro expansion but am pointing out the reality.

I am a lapsed Barrow fan. I want to take my 7 year old Daughter to watch the event that is Toronto coming to town. I'd pay for two seats in the main stand. she'd probably want a scarf and something to eat. It has reawoken my interest in the club so I'm a bit disappointed to see they are not coming. Sad to say none of the other fixtures excite me and that's as an RL fan first (expansionist) and Barrow fan second. I would probably also have dragged some others along for Toronto (the friends I drag along to the Grand Final) and personally if the club made enough of a fuss I think they would have received a much improved gate

We laugh at RU's event crowd but it happens for us too.

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3 minutes ago, Mister C said:

I am a lapsed Barrow fan. I want to take my 7 year old Daughter to watch the event that is Toronto coming to town. I'd pay for two seats in the main stand. she'd probably want a scarf and something to eat. It has reawoken my interest in the club so I'm a bit disappointed to see they are not coming. Sad to say none of the other fixtures excite me and that's as an RL fan first (expansionist) and Barrow fan second. I would probably also have dragged some others along for Toronto (the friends I drag along to the Grand Final) and personally if the club made enough of a fuss I think they would have received a much improved gate

We laugh at RU's event crowd but it happens for us too.

apparently people like you don't exist.

Anybody who wants to come to the RL already knows about it and comes.

And who wants to watch Leigh Reserves anyway?

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34 minutes ago, bar red said:

People on here may scoff, but people consider £15/16 entrance fee to watch Hemel, Oxford, GoG etc too much when they can £2/3 to watch decent amateur games. My team Barrow have assembled a good team this year but because of the fixture list we only play 2 or 3 top teams at home.The rest of our home games are "expansion" teams. No matter how much the club advertises or how much  publicity we recieve through the local press ( which is excellent) you cannot excite the public about Barrow V Hemel, etc. Consequently every year the crowds are starting to drift away. This may come over as a very Luddite, i am very pro expansion but am pointing out the reality.

Out of interest, and I really dont know so its a proper question not setting you up for a fall, but is it because Hemel/Oxford/GoG etc are not very good at the moment (i know glos has a good win on the weekend) or is it because they are who they are.. ie if they were jam packed full of quality and it was going to be a close game/loss against a team chasing promotion etc would this get people through the gates? 

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3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

apparently people like you don't exist.

Anybody who wants to come to the RL already knows about it and comes.

And who wants to watch Leigh Reserves anyway?

I think part of the issue is that such fans have been given up on.  We have a model, and the fans should adapt to it.

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"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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6 minutes ago, Mister C said:

I am a lapsed Barrow fan. I want to take my 7 year old Daughter to watch the event that is Toronto coming to town. I'd pay for two seats in the main stand. she'd probably want a scarf and something to eat. It has reawoken my interest in the club so I'm a bit disappointed to see they are not coming. Sad to say none of the other fixtures excite me and that's as an RL fan first (expansionist) and Barrow fan second. I would probably also have dragged some others along for Toronto (the friends I drag along to the Grand Final) and personally if the club made enough of a fuss I think they would have received a much improved gate

We laugh at RU's event crowd but it happens for us too.

Barrow do not play Toronto at home, i am sure we would have had a bumper crowd. (Thanks RFL).

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8 minutes ago, RP London said:

Out of interest, and I really dont know so its a proper question not setting you up for a fall, but is it because Hemel/Oxford/GoG etc are not very good at the moment (i know glos has a good win on the weekend) or is it because they are who they are.. ie if they were jam packed full of quality and it was going to be a close game/loss against a team chasing promotion etc would this get people through the gates? 

It is a combination but mainly that they are not as competative. If an expansion team were top of the league the game would be easier to market. 50/60 point walkovers are not good for either party.

Edited by bar red
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34 minutes ago, bar red said:

People on here may scoff, but people consider £15/16 entrance fee to watch Hemel, Oxford, GoG etc too much when they can £2/3 to watch decent amateur games. My team Barrow have assembled a good team this year but because of the fixture list we only play 2 or 3 top teams at home.The rest of our home games are "expansion" teams. No matter how much the club advertises or how much  publicity we recieve through the local press ( which is excellent) you cannot excite the public about Barrow V Hemel, etc. Consequently every year the crowds are starting to drift away. This may come over as a very Luddite, i am very pro expansion but am pointing out the reality.

The harsh, depressing reality, as you point out, is no heartland club wants to be in the bottom division. Selling home games against expansion teams, especially when you're charging between fourteen and sixteen quid to get in, must be extremely difficult, if not impossible. It's inevitable all but the hard core will pick their games or, as you say, simply stop going because nothing on the fixture list appeals.

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16 minutes ago, RP London said:

Out of interest, and I really dont know so its a proper question not setting you up for a fall, but is it because Hemel/Oxford/GoG etc are not very good at the moment (i know glos has a good win on the weekend) or is it because they are who they are.. ie if they were jam packed full of quality and it was going to be a close game/loss against a team chasing promotion etc would this get people through the gates? 

As a follower of the game rather than a particular club (too many moves over the years too far away from the team I supported in childhood), I'd watch the expansion teams if they were competitive. But they aren't. I'll get down to Hemel this season, albeit for a game against a fellow expansion club. Pointless, certainly as a neutral, paying to watch Stags get battered by the likes of Barrow and Keighley. In rugby league terms, Hemel, UGAG and Oxford are fairly exotic. As such, they appeal to me. But fixtures with 60-plus points between winner and loser do not. Clearly, given the state of League One's attendances, games like that don't excite fans committed to one club, either.

Edited by Hopping Mad

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21 minutes ago, Mister C said:

I am a lapsed Barrow fan. I want to take my 7 year old Daughter to watch the event that is Toronto coming to town. I'd pay for two seats in the main stand. she'd probably want a scarf and something to eat. It has reawoken my interest in the club so I'm a bit disappointed to see they are not coming. Sad to say none of the other fixtures excite me and that's as an RL fan first (expansionist) and Barrow fan second. I would probably also have dragged some others along for Toronto (the friends I drag along to the Grand Final) and personally if the club made enough of a fuss I think they would have received a much improved gate

We laugh at RU's event crowd but it happens for us too.

With all the space at the ground on view, letting kids in free might have helped adults come as well.  Certainly it would've improved the game as a spectacle.  Granted the weather didn't help but, do you know if there were any promotions to attract kids?

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29 minutes ago, EssexRL said:

Interesting point about the lack of competitive games. It works in reverse of course. Why would people go along to watch expansion clubs get clobbered against teams like Barrow? Its difficult because expansion teams need exposure to bigger clubs and, on the whole, the gap is closing but that has to continue so league 1 becomes more competitive.

I hate to ask this but is League One becoming more competitive because the heartlands clubs are getting worse rather than the expansion teams better?

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14 minutes ago, bar red said:

It is a combination but mainly that they are not as competative. If an expansion team were top of the league the game would be easier to market. 50/60 point walkovers are not good for either party.

Thanks Bar Red and Hopping Mad for pretty much the same response.... generally my feeling too but good to know from people, especially Bar Red up and around where we are talking about, that this is the case. I genuinely think expansion clubs need to be competative from the get go for all concerned and in a way it really doesnt matter how.

 

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