Are the RFL not accepting any new teams?

[NotToday]

You know why Super Rugby and Pro14 works, its because its OWNED by the National structures. It is owned by the domestic leagues.

If it wasn't it would rival it and eat into it completely. Super Rugby could be killed overnight if just NZRU and SARU said they wanted to.

First you didn't know those countries had existing domestic structures of pro-rel. And now you're unaware they are literally owned by these existing structures. Those domestic leagues CO-OWN Super Rugby and Pro14, that's why they operate unchallenged.

[Big Picture]

20 minutes ago, NotToday said:

 

What part of the barriers to entry, and material and environmental conditions of Canada, Australia and US compared to the UK and other countries did you miss?

If the Premiere League wasn't connected to the EFL today (in soccer), you would have millionaires pouring billions into the EFL (and they are to an extent), but PL gets to be top dog because the pyramid says it is.

Now if you close off PL, the EFL can eventually claim to be the top-tier as well. The millionaires would be pouring money into because PL is out of reach. EFL is then connected to the nationwide tiers, and then you have millions off people supporting it by default because their own locale clubs are in its system.

This doesn't happen in those 3 aforementioned countries due to barriers to entry. They can't get a parallel league off the ground because historically it was hard to start a national league in the first place; that's why you have dozens of regional leagues instead, and nobody pays attention to regional leagues. XFL is trying to do it in American football, trying to eat into NFL's marketshare. NFL had the luxury of building itself for a century so it won't be too hurt. Not the case for rugby and soccer, where that tradition is in the pro-rel system.

RFL is already closed off a lot, only 3 tiers and clubs are denied every year. You can't reduce it one tier, and then expect it to go unchallenged. By the time you are successful as a closed-off SL, the expanded fanbase and investment would pour money into RFLC to rival yours and it would work because there's no barriers to entry!

I missed no barriers to entry, the only such barriers would be the legal requirements relating to bringing in players, coaches and the like which Toronto has shown to be manageable.  MLS has surmounted the other barriers which you mention re soccer too and FYI they have a Spanish-language TV contract with Univision so they do have a Latino audience.  David Argyle has apparently taken note, he reportedly has an interest in attracting a Latino audience to RL.

I agree that the PL wouldn't work outside the FA and EFL and Super Rugby and Pro14 wouldn't outside their respective national governing bodies but there's a crucial difference with respect to RL.  The FA, EFL, RFU etc. are strong bodies with competent management and they are part of strong international governing bodies, none of which is true of RL.  Outside of Australia all RL governing bodies are poor and weak, and in addition the administrators of the English game are all small-minded, shortsighted and probably incompetent.  I suggest that anyone who thinks that they could mount any serious opposition or competition to an outside group setting up a new transatlantic league modelled on major North American pro leagues lives in a fantasy world, not the real world.

25 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

I know we've been here before , but for Not todays benifit , we have TWP , NY , London and who else ?

An equal number of cities on each side of the Atlantic so that the amount and cost of the transatlantic travel are balanced across the league, organized into a European Division and an American Division and including one more country than the number represented in either Super Rugby or Pro14.  I have reconsidered my initial list of cities and made one change, because it occurred to me that a city which I hadn't originally thought of would likely be a better choice than one of those; the fact that in the span of a couple of hours' research on that city a natural nickname, choice of colours and logo idea for a franchise located there just popped into my head told me that it was a better choice.

[NotToday]

Listen, I support Argyle and international expansion. But you need to stop comparing other countries with low-density high-landmass areas like Canada, to push this single-tier monopoly idea.

That is a barrier to entry that you have, which others don't. It's also the same reason why major sports in Canada entered the US leagues, instead of creating their own historically, because it was expensive even to create a national league. The CFL which is entirely domestic, is only 9 teams as a result and doesn't have international distribution or play.

 

The biggest barrier to entry for small start-ups and clubs is travel cost. Travel cost is not an issue in countries outside Canada, Australia and the US. Hence, there is nothing stopping them from creating a rival top-tier in other countries.

I have repeated this sentiment multiple times. We are going in circles, so we've both made our points.

[NotToday]

21 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

An equal number of cities on each side of the Atlantic so that the amount and cost of the transatlantic travel are balanced across the league, organized into a European Division and an American Division and including one more country than the number represented in either Super Rugby or Pro14.  I have reconsidered my initial list of cities and made one change, because it occurred to me that a city which I hadn't originally thought of would likely be a better choice than one of those; the fact that in the span of a couple of hours' research on that city a natural nickname, choice of colours and logo idea for a franchise located there just popped into my head told me that it was a better choice.

 

Why is Toronto Wolfpack not touring other cities like Ottawa and Mississauga. I had an argument with another Canadian on a different site when I merely suggested it.

Wolfpack needs to hold occasional games outside Toronto to bring awareness of the sport. RL isn't big enough there that people are taking the train to Toronto to watch a game every few weeks. Holding a game in their locale is the only way these people are going to be able to witness it live. If you plan to bring in other cities, first they need to be better accustomed to it as a sport.

[absentee thoughtlord]

On 2/11/2019 at 12:08 PM, Nate90 said:

Are the Cornish Rebels still going in Redruth? 

How are they doing?

 

Still going. Play mainly at the Recreation Ground in Camborne I think. Been to watch them a few times, and there's plenty of player potential.

If you're ever down this way I highly recommend catching a Devon v Cornwall county clash. Kind of like Lancashire v Yorkshire without the pleasantries.

[Big Picture]

7 minutes ago, NotToday said:

Why is Toronto Wolfpack not touring other cities like Ottawa and Mississauga. I had an argument with another Canadian on a different site when I merely suggested it.

Wolfpack needs to hold occasional games outside Toronto to bring awareness of the sport. RL isn't big enough there that people are taking the train to Toronto to watch a game every few weeks. Holding a game in their locale is the only way these people are going to be able to witness it live. If you plan to bring in other cities, first they need to be better accustomed to it as a sport.

It's a combination of logistics and the nature of some cities.  Ottawa has longer and much colder winters than Toronto, so playing there outside the part of the year when playing in Toronto is possible isn't feasible.  Ditto Montréal.  Mississauga is a bedroom community which isn't really looked on as separate from Toronto, and Hamilton is sort of in between.  As the cost of living in Toronto continues to climb, anyone wanting to buy a house and raise a family is pushed into moving further out, so places like Hamilton come more and more within Toronto's orbit.  Torontonians won't go to Hamilton for much (if anything) but Hamiltonians routinely go into Toronto for sports, concerts and the like.

[NotToday]

12 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

It's a combination of logistics and the nature of some cities.  Ottawa has longer and much colder winters than Toronto, so playing there outside the part of the year when playing in Toronto is possible isn't feasible.  Ditto Montréal.  Mississauga is a bedroom community which isn't really looked on as separate from Toronto, and Hamilton is sort of in between.  As the cost of living in Toronto continues to climb, anyone wanting to buy a house and raise a family is pushed into moving further out, so places like Hamilton come more and more within Toronto's orbit.  Torontonians won't go to Hamilton for much (if anything) but Hamiltonians routinely go into Toronto for sports, concerts and the like.

 

How are you going to bring in other cities, if they can't even be considered habitable for a game once a year?

How come MLS can operate in these cities? Surely playing in Ottawa once isn't crazy. It's a large size city.

 

You ignored my own logistical analyses between countries and countries-the-size-of-continents, and now you're making analyses of why cities have problems hosting games? Surely if you think in these terms my earlier points would have made sense.

The surrounding citi-zens go to Toronto for major sports, but RL and Wolpack aren't major. They need to go to the those citi-zens once a year and put on a display.

[Big Picture]

2 minutes ago, NotToday said:

How are you going to bring in other cities, if they can't even be considered habitable for a game once a year?

How come MLS can operate in these cities? Surely playing in Ottawa once isn't crazy. It's a large size city.

You ignored my own environmental analyses between countries and countries-the-size-of-continents, and now you're making analyses of why cities have problems hosting games? Surely if you think in these terms my earlier points would have made sense.

They're habitable year round, but outdoor sports are all pushed into the window of April-November by the climate here.

MLS doesn't start until March, when winter is coming an end here, and Montréal plays away for the first six weeks of the 2019 season.  Their home opener isn't until mid-April.  Toronto FC will play their home opener in mid-March, but winter's basically over in Toronto by then.

I overlooked your analysis of smaller European countries because it isn't relevant to a transatlantic league; like Super Rugby and Pro14, a transatlantic league in RL would operate on an even bigger scale than the continental-scale leagues which exist now in other sports so it would have to operate like they do.

[TIWIT]

15 hours ago, NotToday said:

But that was never the point of my discussion. You ignored the main part that there ARE domestic leagues, with pro-rel, in all of those countries.

Otherwise you'll end up like Canada, with barely any good basketball players despite the sport being watched for decades. That's why grassroots participation is a big deal. 

So far wrong it's laughable. NAM kids would love to play for their local teams in their favourite sport but under the curent system that is rare as the draft disperses young talent throughout the league's. Not all teams make equal use of that of course because of mismanagement, e.g., the Knicks, losers of 17 games in a row now.

Canada has the second most numbers of players in the NBA, even of only one - from Montreal - plays for the Raptors.

Kids in NAM just want to play pro. Many don't even want to play for their home-town team: too much pressure to win and all the blame when you lose.

[NotToday]

2 minutes ago, TIWIT said:

So far wrong it's laughable. NAM kids would love to play for their local teams in their favourite sport but under the curent system that is rare as the draft disperses young talent throughout the league's. Not all teams make equal use of that of course because of mismanagement, e.g., the Knicks, losers of 17 games in a row now.

Canada has the second most numbers of players in the NBA, even of only one - from Montreal - plays for the Raptors.

Kids in NAM just want to play pro. Many don't even want to play for their home-town team: too much pressure to win and all the blame when you lose.

 

This was a joke, and once again you too have been triggered instead of addressing the actual point of the discussion. I'm not going to go back to something which was never my point of contention to begin with.

[NotToday]

10 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

They're habitable year round, but outdoor sports are all pushed into the window of April-November by the climate here.

MLS doesn't start until March, when winter is coming an end here, and Montréal plays away for the first six weeks of the 2019 season.  Their home opener isn't until mid-April.  Toronto FC will play their home opener in mid-March, but winter's basically over in Toronto by then.

I overlooked your analysis of smaller European countries because it isn't relevant to a transatlantic league; like Super Rugby and Pro14, a transatlantic league in RL would operate on an even bigger scale than the continental-scale leagues which exist now in other sports so it would have to operate like they do.

 

Half the RFLC games are held post-April though. You have a window of 3-4 months of summer games.

[Big Picture]

Just now, NotToday said:

Half the RFLC games are held post-April though. You have a window of 3-4 months of summer games.

And in that window, the Wolfpack want to play in Toronto as many times as possible to build their crowds and local revenue.  They gain exposure further afield by putting all their matches on TV.

[NotToday]

1 minute ago, Big Picture said:

And in that window, the Wolfpack want to play in Toronto as many times as possible to build their crowds and local revenue.  They gain exposure further afield by putting all their matches on TV.

 

See, my problem with this is: they're not really making money, they're primarily doing it to spread awareness of the sport. So why not venture out a little more? Sports investment are tax-breaks for the rich, and Argyle iirc is a mining magnate. So he's not scraping for a few thousand in ticket/merch when he's spending more than that just to pay for the flight tickets and lodging of the Wolfpack and their opponents every time they have a home game.

Wolfpack have actually come out a few weeks ago saying they want to hold games in other cities in Europe....then why not other cities in Ontario? 

This is like when someone says "I'm willing to lose 10k but not 13k." You would only need to hold at most 2 outside games a year. You can promote those 2 games for months, or half a year, in advance. Crowds can't be that dead if you're saying people outside are getting it on TV, they're getting a special event that's only coming to their town once a year. Merch sales would also be higher compared to a fanbase that already bought most of the gear months ago per season.

[Big Picture]

5 minutes ago, NotToday said:

See, my problem with this is: they're not really making money, they're primarily doing it to spread awareness of the sport. So why not venture out a little more? Sports investment are tax-breaks for the rich, and Argyle iirc is a mining magnate. So he's not scraping for a few thousand in ticket/merch when he's spending more than that just to pay for the flight tickets and lodging of the Wolfpack and their opponents every time they have a home game.

Wolfpack have actually come out a few weeks ago saying they want to hold games in other cities in Europe....then why not other cities in Ontario? 

This is like when someone says "I'm willing to lose 10k but not 13k." You would only need to hold at most 2 outside games a year. You can promote those 2 games for months, or half a year, in advance. Crowds can't be that dead if you're saying people outside are getting it on TV, they're getting a special event that's only coming to their town once a year. Merch sales would also be higher compared to a fanbase that already bought most of the gear months ago per season.

My understanding is that the matches they want to hold in Europe would be during the time of year when playing in Canada isn't feasible, i.e. the first few months of the season (don't forget about the dome over the Lamport field until late April).  Merchandise sales are already aided by their matches being on TV; Canadians across the country who catch them on TV or online can order their merchandise just the same as the locals in Toronto can.

[NotToday]

12 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

My understanding is that the matches they want to hold in Europe would be during the time of year when playing in Canada isn't feasible, i.e. the first few months of the season (don't forget about the dome over the Lamport field until late April).  Merchandise sales are already aided by their matches being on TV; Canadians across the country who catch them on TV or online can order their merchandise just the same as the locals in Toronto can.

 

I'm hearing excuses just not good ones for a club of this nature. Would make sense for one that wasn't already spending thousands on flight and lodging for two teams and operating across two continents.

But hey, if you guys are happy with this situation, then do you. 

[TIWIT]

1 hour ago, NotToday said:

 

This was a joke, and once again you too have been triggered instead of addressing the actual point of the discussion. I'm not going to go back to something which was never my point of contention to begin with.

Jokes are funny. Your point seems to have been missed by many of us so clearly it's not a very good one.

TWP are still building up their own market here and without the financial support of the SL/RFL why would they give up a local gate, especially when those 2 organizations do little for them financially save take their money? When any of the 4 NAM leagues go playing in Europe their leagues back them, it's not just the 2 teams barnstorming by themselves.

[NotToday]

Just now, TIWIT said:

Jokes are funny. Your point seems to have been missed by many of us so clearly it's not a very good one.

TWP are still building up their own market here and without the financial support of the SL/RFL why would they give up a local gate, especially when those 2 organizations do little for them financially save take their money? When any of the 4 NAM leagues go playing in Europe their leagues back them, it's not just the 2 teams barnstorming by themselves.

 

This wasn't really what that discussion was about. It was about pro-rel, and why a monopoly tier league wouldn't work out outside high-landmass areas—like Canada, US and Australia—where travel costs are cheap and creating a rival top-tier league is easy.

But keep selectively seeing and responding to what you want to see though. 

[TIWIT]

5 hours ago, NotToday said:

 

See, my problem with this is: they're not really making money, they're primarily doing it to spread awareness of the sport. So why not venture out a little more? Sports investment are tax-breaks for the rich, and Argyle iirc is a mining magnate. So he's not scraping for a few thousand in ticket/merch when he's spending more than that just to pay for the flight tickets and lodging of the Wolfpack and their opponents every time they have a home game.

Wolfpack have actually come out a few weeks ago saying they want to hold games in other cities in Europe....then why not other cities in Ontario? 

This is like when someone says "I'm willing to lose 10k but not 13k." You would only need to hold at most 2 outside games a year. You can promote those 2 games for months, or half a year, in advance. Crowds can't be that dead if you're saying people outside are getting it on TV, they're getting a special event that's only coming to their town once a year. Merch sales would also be higher compared to a fanbase that already bought most of the gear months ago per season.

Booking stadiums in Canada is a major issue. Because of the short summers what stadiums we have - say 5-9000 seats - are hard to come by, especially on the prime weekend dates. And TWP would require a local promoter/partner for this. Better to stay at home for your home games and seek other places to play road games, at least until they are a SL member

[TheReaper]

4 hours ago, NotToday said:

You keep responding to the one-liners and ignoring where I disproved your point about the lack of pro-rel in domestic leagues in RU, which you've kept ignoring.

I didn't make any points about P+R in rugby, I asked one question about NYRL, and countered your "joke" about basketball.

If you're going to be this argumentative and opinionated, get your facts and posters straight.

[Hemel Stag]

On 2/11/2019 at 6:13 AM, Damien said:

Football and RU do very well and have widespread support with teams up and down the land. We seem to be intent to contract backwards towards 2 professional leagues again and no real pyramid. Then we wonder why much of the country doesn't give a damn about RL.

RU - "Team England" is a phenomena but apart from this the Premiership and Championship don't have such great gates and geographically it is concentrated in an inverted L shape along the M4 from Bath & Bristol via London and up the M1 to Northampton and Leicester. Sale and Newcastle being outposts with good teams that are poorly supported (inverse of the Broncos situation for RL) RU get a lot of media coverage from their old school chums in the mainstream media but this is disproportionate to the size of the sport, in my opinion.

RL - League structure - there are big gaps between the quality and infrastructure of the clubs, leading to an imbalance and those leagues being noncompetitive and not sufficiently entertaining for the fans. You could almost cut each league in two to match the teams levels, but six leagues of six teams would never work. But I agree with you, contracting back to two leagues wouldn't help either, it would make things worse. We need more teams at all levels to equal out the leagues and more bums on seats to fund it. There needs to be a big Marketing Drive from the RFL to get the sport noticed and tried by new people. Toronto are adding lots of noise in the media, Coventry Bears are working wonders wwith social media, fan and community engagement, showing what can be done on a minimal budget and with lots of input from dedicated volunteers that love their club. I am full of respect for the guys and gals at Coventry. 

Down here, in the deep dark south, there are lots of small teams and lots of community initiatives, there are a lot of amateur players  at all ages, but there's no audience. Talking to people at work, there's some "brand recognition" for teams such as Bradford Bulls and Leeds Rhinos. I think the World Cup, with the Semi's at Arsenal, is the golden opportunity to touch a new audience. If Broncos can keep themselves up and London Skolars benefit from the Wolfpack investment, it could be a very good springboard.

People are open to new sports, NFL is having an impact (sell out games at Wembley), you can even watch professional Ice Hockey at places like Salford and Milton Keynes ! A good selling point for RL in the South is that it is fresh, new, fast, physical, high scoring. This is the "Rock 'n' Roll" of sporting action. How can this not be sold?   

 

[Marauder]

3 hours ago, Big Picture said:

It's a combination of logistics and the nature of some cities.  Ottawa has longer and much colder winters than Toronto, so playing there outside the part of the year when playing in Toronto is possible isn't feasible.  Ditto Montréal.  Mississauga is a bedroom community which isn't really looked on as separate from Toronto, and Hamilton is sort of in between.  As the cost of living in Toronto continues to climb, anyone wanting to buy a house and raise a family is pushed into moving further out, so places like Hamilton come more and more within Toronto's orbit.  Torontonians won't go to Hamilton for much (if anything) but Hamiltonians routinely go into Toronto for sports, concerts and the like.

Have you even mentioned the development of players because you can't buy what is not there.

[NotToday]

1 hour ago, TheReaper said:

I didn't make any points about P+R in rugby, I asked one question about NYRL, and countered your "joke" about basketball.

If you're going to be this argumentative and opinionated, get your facts and posters straight.

 

If Canadians all have the same opinion in tandem, can't really blame someone else for being frustrated responding to the same minor hang-up.

The least you can do is follow the thread to see what else someone else has said instead of repeating it. You three mentioned the same points the one before you said. All triggered by the same one-line. 

 

I'll probably have that same post quoted and responded to for the next 3 months. 

[Hemel Stag]

21 hours ago, The Future is League said:

We need to concentrate on selling into non-RL areas and building up from there (Coventry, Newcastle etc).

Well said, totally agree with you   

[NotToday]

9 minutes ago, Hemel Stag said:

RU - "Team England" is a phenomena but apart from this the Premiership and Championship don't have such great gates and geographically it is concentrated in an inverted L shape along the M4 from Bath & Bristol via London and up the M1 to Northampton and Leicester. Sale and Newcastle being outposts with good teams that are poorly supported (inverse of the Broncos situation for RL) RU get a lot of media coverage from their old school chums in the mainstream media but this is disproportionate to the size of the sport, in my opinion.

RL - League structure - there are big gaps between the quality and infrastructure of the clubs, leading to an imbalance and those leagues being noncompetitive and not sufficiently entertaining for the fans. You could almost cut each league in two to match the teams levels, but six leagues of six teams would never work. But I agree with you, contracting back to two leagues wouldn't help either, it would make things worse. We need more teams at all levels to equal out the leagues and more bums on seats to fund it. There needs to be a big Marketing Drive from the RFL to get the sport noticed and tried by new people. Toronto are adding lots of noise in the media, Coventry Bears are working wonders wwith social media, fan and community engagement, showing what can be done on a minimal budget and with lots of input from dedicated volunteers that love their club. I am full of respect for the guys and gals at Coventry. 

Down here, in the deep dark south, there are lots of small teams and lots of community initiatives, there are a lot of amateur players  at all ages, but there's no audience. Talking to people at work, there's some "brand recognition" for teams such as Bradford Bulls and Leeds Rhinos. I think the World Cup, with the Semi's at Arsenal, is the golden opportunity to touch a new audience. If Broncos can keep themselves up and London Skolars benefit from the Wolfpack investment, it could be a very good springboard.

People are open to new sports, NFL is having an impact (sell out games at Wembley), you can even watch professional Ice Hockey at places like Salford and Milton Keynes ! A good selling point for RL in the South is that it is fresh, new, fast, physical, high scoring. This is the "Rock 'n' Roll" of sporting action. How can this not be sold?   

 

 

But is retaining 3 leagues feasible if they aren't selling tickets and not getting TV coverage? I hear all this talk about teams needing games and making money from that, but the attendances the lower you go down the table seems to be pretty poor.

If most RFLC games aren't being aired, then forget RFL1 is the gist of it.

Now if you force RFL1 into RFLC, without disbanding a single club but merging the leagues into one, you kind of force people's hands into following them. It won't increase the amount of games aired per se, but the variety of teams being aired would increase; and that increased awareness would drive attendances. League1 is effectively in a media blackout.

 

My idea is to divide the 26 teams of a single RFLC into 2 Conferences. The winner of each is declared Conference champion. Then the top-5 or so teams from each Conference play in they playoff stage and becomes RFL Champion and gains promotion.

The benefits of this:

1. Instead of people treating the League1 championship as meaningless, they see the two Conference titles as equals. No more blackout.

2. Variety of clubs aired and covered by media, thereby allowing all of them to gain valuable exposure and resulting revenue, which League1 teams otherwise don't.

3. By creating additional titles, but within the existing package, you create more accolades to aim for and more storylines and drama for audiences. Yet, the amount of total games played is roughly the same as prior system. Everyone can't be RFL Champion, but it's possible for 1 or 2 additional clubs to be Conference champion per year.  

4. The sponsorship value of RFLC as an organization increases because it's twice as many games, in contrast to League1 which has no real sponsorship value by itself due to no visibility.

5. Because half the teams are segregated from the other half, when the top-5 clubs from each finally get to face off, that provides a renewed boost of audience interest. It's like watching the All-Star clubs playing against each other. The media and fans will be taking about it for weeks into the lead up.

[TheReaper]

31 minutes ago, NotToday said:

If Canadians all have the same opinion in tandem, can't really blame someone else for being frustrated responding to the same minor hang-up.

The least you can do is follow the thread to see what else someone else has said instead of repeating it. You three mentioned the same points the one before you said. All triggered by the same one-line. 

Except I was the first person to call you out about the Canadian basketball comment. The least you could do is follow the thread, and keep track of who replied to you rather than argue blindly and be wrong again.

As well as now being... racist isn't the right word, but grouping everyone together because they're from the same country isn't good look. Just as on example, Big Picture and I have verrry different opinions about several things - I think I've even called him mean names before.

31 minutes ago, NotToday said:

I'll probably have that same post quoted and responded to for the next 3 months. 

About that post...

You tried to claim it was a joke, to cover up being caught out. But let's look at what you actually posted:

First this:

19 hours ago, NotToday said:

I follow the NBA, there's definitely some garbage teams in there. One of them is the Knicks. Clippers and Pelicans suck too. These teams consistently do poor.

The bottom 5 teams in any sports league is garbage. But you wouldn't know because there's nothing to take their place because there's no pro-rel.

Toronto Raptors has 1 Canadian player out of 15 players. After all these years, and basketball being one of the most-watched sports in Canada, all they've got is 1 player? ROFLMAO!!!!!

Followed immediately by this:

19 hours ago, NotToday said:

But that was never the point of my discussion. You ignored the main part that there ARE domestic leagues, with pro-rel, in all of those countries.

Otherwise you'll end up like Canada, with barely any good basketball players despite the sport being watched for decades. That's why grassroots participation is a big deal. 

Doubling down on your incorrect and uninformed statement, and NOT in a way that could be construed as a joke. Others have already pointed that our participation and professional playing numbers have only been increasing - i.e. top down expansion to Toronto with no P+R  did and is working.

For posterity, your claim of being "joking":

3 hours ago, NotToday said:

This was a joke, and once again you too have been triggered instead of addressing the actual point of the discussion. I'm not going to go back to something which was never my point of contention to begin with.

 

6 hours ago, NotToday said:

35 million people, 30 years later, and all you have is 14 players?

Lastly, because I grabbed this quote anyway. First it was one player you were laughing about, then 14. How much farther do you want to keep moving that basket?

 

Are you at 100 posts yet?