Are the RFL not accepting any new teams?

[Gerrumonside ref]

4 hours ago, NotToday said:

 

This is a really bad argument.

You're basically saying "let's handicap them, so they have no other option". In which case you can make people literally do anything. 

Take away a person's food, and you can make them dance naked for a loaf of bread too.

 

Not to mention, the only reason even those NCAA football and basketball competitions are huge is because US audiences historical saw no other option for entertainment in those sports, and US media was heavily insular. American Football doesn't get played in other countries, so all they have is NFL and NCAA.

Now that AAF and XFL are starting up, I'm not presuming they would make the NCAA irrelevant either, because they already developed a following and tradition. So people will keep watching. It's the same reason why they watch the NCAA over basketball leagues in other countries. They don't really follow the EuroLeague because of its lack of availability in the US and outside continental Europe.

Soccer and rugby is different. If audiences are done watching Premiere League, they can watch Spanish League or French and German leagues. They don't need to stoop to watching collegiate sports when there's elite pros playing year-round. It almost seems silly to follow collegiate sports if it isn't your local team you have a connection to.

I’m basically not saying that I want people to dance naked for bread.

[Gerrumonside ref]

4 hours ago, NotToday said:

 

Once again, this is a bad argument devoid of reality. You keep trying to create a world of what-ifs where we can make up literally any scenario of our lives like that. Fiji would be a world superpower.

 

Britain doesn't have the material conditions of the US, to be giving away free stadiums.

1. There's healthcare and other subsidies that government puts money into. US sports investment are about 'bread and circus' first and foremost to distract from other services or lack thereof. Sports in general tend to be a 'bread and circus' worldwide, but how much regimes spend on it varies.

2. US has 50 states each competing for attention. Hence, why the states spend money on subsidizing stadiums and corporations. They don't want to lose the corporation to another state.

When Amazon said they're picking a second HQ, everyone fell in line trying to offer benefits. In the end it turned out to be a facade because they went with NY and Virginia (i.e., the financial capital and nation's capital; Virginia borders DC). But they managed to get subsidies from both those states, which they wouldn't have otherwise.

 

So there's no "what if we did what they did" because the material conditions literally won't allow for it. And the only way you can even fantasize about it, is by fantasy alone where everything works according to your vision without any other variables coming into play. Like some early 20th-century communist dreaming of an ideal society before putting it into practice, and facing the realities.

The American system as a whole cannot be employed anywhere else like it does: Collegiate, subsidies, lack of pro-rel.

There are elements of it in other countries, that have to do with their own material conditions.

Let's take Australia:

1. Only 25 million people. Countries with small populations can do without pro-rel. 

2. Country is absolutely huge, but far less dense than the US. Lower-tier teams won't be able to travel for away games even if they wanted to; it'll be expensive. So pro-rel is practically impossible. A second-tier at most may work. They won't be financially feasible but pro-rel in the US could because they are a market of 320 million and have huge population centers.

3. Australia has states, and so does Canada, and there is some competition for attention. So there are stadiums being subsidized to an extent, but it is far less than what's going on in the US.

In regards to point #3, Britain doing that just results in the status quo: England being the more dominant cultural and economic center compared to Wales and Scotland. You have that already. Governments other than the US couldn't even build as many stadiums to equal the amount of clubs in a league, nevermind multiples leagues/collegiate sports; How many stadiums can you build in a country of say 40 or 80 million? Definitely not 20. Maybe 10. You'd have 10 major teams trying to share a single stadium (in your scenario where major/collegiate sports all play in stadiums like the US, and not local pitches like in the UK).

 

That’s just been a total waste of typing on your part where you’re demolishing a straw man argument that I’m not making.

 

 

[Chamey]

3 hours ago, Michael Gledhill said:

The RFL members (the clubs) saw the New York City bid as a perceived threat to their future existence.

The voting and acceptance power fundamentally lies with the RFL members (the clubs) and not Ralph Rimmer, Karen Moorehouse, Emma Rosewarne etc...

Survival of the fittest mentality.

Please say that you're having a laugh. Bald twits (maybe another vowel instead of the i?) fighting over a comb. It's not even like new clubs need to be a one in one out process. Expand the SL to 14, and give Toronto & NYRL the additional places. If more NA bids get proposed expand the SL again, say to 16 with Toulouse and DC for example. It won't take much of a US TV deal to be outpaying the Sky deal per club.

[RP London]

8 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

I’m basically not saying that I want people to dance naked for bread.

although film it and stick it on the internet and you have done more than the Super League and RFL marketing and PR departments have in the past decade! 

[RP London]

Just now, Chamey said:

Please say that you're having a laugh. Bald twits (maybe another vowel instead of the i?) fighting over a comb. It's not even like new clubs need to be a one in one out process. Expand the SL to 14, and give Toronto & NYRL the additional places. If more NA bids get proposed expand the SL again, say to 16 with Toulouse and DC for example. It won't take much of a US TV deal to be outpaying the Sky deal per club.

league one is down a club with an odd number so its not really hard to fit another team in! 

[Lamport Life]

5 hours ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

I’m not sure I’m against that kind of interventionist economics to be honest.

There isn't a study in North America that proves these subsidies are beneficial to the economy over-all. They are just subsidizing shifts in private spending, not new spending. The primary beneficiaries are the billionaires that own the teams, not the players, other staff, fans or local residents.

[Gerrumonside ref]

4 minutes ago, Lamport Life said:

There isn't a study in North America that proves these subsidies are beneficial to the economy over-all. They are just subsidizing shifts in private spending, not new spending. The primary beneficiaries are the billionaires that own the teams, not the players, other staff, fans or local residents.

Which is probably why I’m less than emphatic in my endorsement although I might like it in theory.

Was Clinton big into this kind of intervention?

[Lamport Life]

11 hours ago, NotToday said:

Otherwise you'll end up like Canada, with barely any good basketball players despite the sport being watched for decades. That's why grassroots participation is a big deal. 

Might want to do your research next time before spouting off.

There are a record number of Canadian NBA players:  14, the second most of any nation. Canada has also produced the second most NBA players of any nation all-time.

Canada is also the second biggest supplier of players for the NBA G-League.

There are a record number of players in NCAA D-1 basketball, the primary supplier of NBA talent: 133 (also the second most of any nation).

Of all Canadian university and college sports, basketball has experienced the most growth in the number of teams over the past decade.

Over the past decade, tens of hundreds of Canadians have either moved to US prep schools, the primary feeder of NCAA talent, or joined one of the many new prep leagues that have formed in Canada to develop high school aged players at a higher level.

Basketball is huge at the grassroots level, it is the fourth most participated organized sport and third most participated team sport.

[Lamport Life]

8 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Which is probably why I’m less than emphatic in my endorsement although I might like it in theory.

Was Clinton big into this kind of intervention?

Subsidization of pro sports venues has always been at the municipal and state levels (though mostly the former, often pitting one city in the same metropolitan area against another.) It's never been a Federal issue.

[Big Picture]

5 hours ago, Toby Chopra said:

This would be the obvious endgame - a full breakaway - except... even the biggest Superleague clubs and Elstone himself seem rather cold about the overseas teams. I think they see them as more of a threat than a benefit too. They're happy with the status quo too, as long as they keep near the top of it. 

IF there was a market for 'Big City' rugby league - and I'm not persuaded there is - then someone's going to have to come in from the outside and blow the existing system out of the water with a *huge amount of cash, like Murdoch threatened to do to union in the early 90s before it professionalised.

*(The 'huge amount of cash' needed to take over British Rugby league isn't actually that huge compared to other sports, but would still be a hell of a gamble.) 

The existing system wouldn't be blown out of the water if the new league was a whole separate entity sitting above it all the way Super Rugby and Pro14 are separate entities sitting above the domestic RU structures in the countries where they operate.  In that case the existing leagues and clubs could continue as they always were with the sole exception that they couldn't maintain the false pretense of being big time outfits.

[NotToday]

1 hour ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

That’s just been a total waste of typing on your part where you’re demolishing a straw man argument that I’m not making.

 

 

 

What strawman argument? This was a breakdown on their differing economic and political situations. Keep ignoring the informative bits because your dream got hurt.

[Gerrumonside ref]

14 minutes ago, NotToday said:

 

What strawman argument? This was a breakdown on their differing economic and political situations. Keep ignoring the informative bits because your dream got hurt.

I just found it to be a rant to be honest that wasn’t addressing anything I’d said just your misinterpretation of my point.

 

[NotToday]

4 hours ago, TheReaper said:

You are way off here. We're in a golden age of Canadian basketball.  It has more popularity and participation than ever before. There are currently 14 Canadian players in the NBA, more than ever before (38 all time, including those 14). Canada is qualified for the world cup. A new Canadian summer league is starting in May. We've had a winter league for several years.

Almost all of this is due to Canada getting two NBA teams in the 90's, boosting awareness and popularity of the sport.  

 

35 million people, 30 years later, and all you have is 14 players? That was never my point though, it was merely responding a cheeky comment to your non-comment with the "ROFLMAO!!!" nonsense.

Did I suggest the 90s NBA pro teams weren't a good idea? I'm very much for that line of thinking, hence, why I like the idea of a Wolfpack and a Liverpool team, etc.

You keep responding to the one-liners and ignoring where I disproved your point about the lack of pro-rel in domestic leagues in RU, which you've kept ignoring.

 

Other countries aren't 30 million with a low population density. It takes large sums of money for anyone in the east of Canada to travel west, and the southeast to travel to Quebec; and the same for Australia. Thereby making it financially unfeasible for lower-tier teams (lack of funding due to small market, combined with high expenses for travel), and hence you can get away with a single-tier league.

That's not the case for most other high density countries, where most away games is an hour or two bus-drive away. Travel is cheap and populations are often higher, thereby making pro-rel a logistical possibility, and therefore a necessity because people will demand it (or they'll organize their own parallel system with pro-rel). In places where population is equal or lower than 30 mill, once again density is high and travel is cheap, thereby making pro-rel a logistical possibility and often a necessity.

But keeping ignoring these material and enviromental differences between countries, I keep pointing out for the last 2 pages.

[GUBRATS]

47 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

The existing system wouldn't be blown out of the water if the new league was a whole separate entity sitting above it all the way Super Rugby and Pro14 are separate entities sitting above the domestic RU structures in the countries where they operate.  In that case the existing leagues and clubs could continue as they always were with the sole exception that they couldn't maintain the false pretense of being big time outfits.

Yes they would continue , but probably not full time , but still with more people watching them than the new competition above them , which wouldnt last very long due to lack of interest

[Big Picture]

Just now, GUBRATS said:

Yes they would continue , but probably not full time , but still with more people watching them than the new competition above them , which wouldnt last very long due to lack of interest

On the contrary, the new competition just might capture the imagination of the punters in Toronto, London, New York, etc. and break down the game's image as a small-time regional sport with limited appeal, and consequently be a big success.  The more I reflect on the subject, the more I am inclined to the view that nothing else could possibly overcome that negative image which seems so prevalent over there.

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, Big Picture said:

On the contrary, the new competition just might capture the imagination of the punters in Toronto, London, New York, etc. and break down the game's image as a small-time regional sport with limited appeal, and consequently be a big success.  The more I reflect on the subject, the more I am inclined to the view that nothing else could possibly overcome that negative image which seems so prevalent over there.

In Toronto , New York and London [ doubtful but you can dream I suppose ] perhaps , but where else do you see people being interested enough to pay to attend ?

[Oliver Clothesoff]

1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

In Toronto , New York and London [ doubtful but you can dream I suppose ] perhaps , but where else do you see people being interested enough to pay to attend ?

Looking at the figures teams have had turning up when Toronto have been in town, places across the M62 corridor. 

[Big Picture]

5 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

In Toronto , New York and London [ doubtful but you can dream I suppose ] perhaps , but where else do you see people being interested enough to pay to attend ?

In any of the big, world-class cities which would be home to franchises which would regularly play opponents from other big, world-class cities in matches of a type never seen in other sports due to the mix of cities and countries carefully chosen to maximize the Wow! factor.

[NotToday]

2 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

On the contrary, the new competition just might capture the imagination of the punters in Toronto, London, New York, etc. and break down the game's image as a small-time regional sport with limited appeal, and consequently be a big success.  The more I reflect on the subject, the more I am inclined to the view that nothing else could possibly overcome that negative image which seems so prevalent over there.

 

It can incorporate the big city teams and foreign teams, while maintaining a second-tier division (and when it grows a third-tier division again).

I propose that RFL1  be merged into RFLC, and then divided into 2 Conferences running in parallel. The winners of each become Conference Champion, and the top-5 teams in each come together for a playoff stage which determines RFL Champion.

 

Try to cut off the smaller teams entirely and their fans will either stop watching, or just not bother to watch yours. Now you may say "well, who needs them?!", but you do. You can't throw away your proven core for a risk which will take a decade to develop and may or may not work. Right now there's a large fanbases, arguably half the British-French fanbase following the RFLC-RFL1 teams because their clubs are in it.

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Looking at the figures teams have had turning up when Toronto have been in town, places across the M62 corridor.

So 1,000s and 1,000s of new RL fans sprouting up in places that dont have a RL club would suddenly start attending these games ?

[Oliver Clothesoff]

1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

So 1,000s and 1,000s of new RL fans sprouting up in places that dont have a RL club would suddenly start attending these games ?

That’s not what you said. 

However, yes, numeours Canadians who’d never seen a game before attended the Skolars v Toronto game. 

[NotToday]

2 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

In any of the big, world-class cities which would be home to franchises which would regularly play opponents from other big, world-class cities which are never seen in other sports due to the mix of cities and countries carefully chosen to maximize the Wow! factor.

This is what needs to be built on overtime; you don't do this by throwing away your core.

By the time RL is popular enough to have attracted that large fanbase, you're going to need a 2nd and 3rd division anyways. If you decide to ignore the newly-large fanbase at that point, they're going to create rival leagues and eat into your claim to a first-tier league anyways.

The UK isn't a low-density large country like a few others, people can travel very easily and affordably; there is no barrier to entry for another national league to rival your version of SL at that point. 

[Big Picture]

14 minutes ago, NotToday said:

It can incorporate the big city teams and foreign teams, while maintaining a second-tier division (and when it grows a third-tier division again).

I propose that RFL1  be merged into RFLC, and then divided into 2 Conferences running in parallel. The winners of each become Conference Champion, and the top-5 teams in each come together for a playoff stage which determines RFL Champion.

 

Try to cut off the smaller teams entirely and their fans will either stop watching, or just not bother to watch yours. Now you may say "well, who needs them?!", but you do. You can't throw away your proven core for a risk which will take a decade to develop and may or may not work. Right now there's a large fanbases, arguably half the British-French fanbase following the RFLC-RFL1 teams because their clubs are in it.

What part of separate entity from the existing structure (ala Super Rugby and Pro14) modelled on major North American pro leagues in all respects did you miss?

I envision a scenario in which every franchise does what Toronto did 2 years ago: draws good crowds to their first couple of home matches (even if they're just curious about such an out-of-the-box setup), then makes sure that they have a great time and want to come back for more and builds from there.  The modest existing fan base watching would then be a bonus but not a requirement.

 

[GUBRATS]

8 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

What part of separate entity from the existing structure (ala Super Rugby and Pro14) modelled on major North American pro leagues in all respects did you miss?

I envision a scenario in which every franchise does what Toronto did 2 years ago: draws good crowds to their first couple of home matches (even if they're just curious about such an out-of-the-box setup), then makes sure that they have a great time and want to come back for more and builds from there.  The modest existing fan base watching would then be a bonus but not a requirement.

 

I know we've been here before , but for Not todays benifit , we have TWP , NY , London and who else ?

[NotToday]

2 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

What part of separate entity from the existing structure (ala Super Rugby and Pro14) modelled on major North American pro leagues in all respects did you miss?

I envision a scenario in which every franchise does what Toronto did 2 years ago: draws good crowds to their first couple of home matches (even if they're just curious about such an out-of-the-box setup), then makes sure that they have a great time and want to come back for more and builds from there.  The modest existing fan base watching then be a bonus but not a requirement.

 

 

What part of the barriers to entry, and material and environmental conditions of Canada, Australia and US compared to the UK and other countries did you miss?

 

If the Premiere League wasn't connected to the EFL today (in soccer), you would have millionaires pouring billions into the EFL (and they are to an extent), but PL gets to be top dog because the pyramid says it is.

Now if you close off PL, the EFL can eventually claim to be the top-tier as well. The millionaires would be pouring money into because PL is out of reach. EFL is then connected to the nationwide tiers, and then you have millions off people supporting it by default because their own locale clubs are in its system.

This doesn't happen in those 3 aforementioned countries due to barriers to entry. They can't get a parallel league off the ground because historically it was hard to start a national league in the first place; that's why you have dozens of regional leagues instead, and nobody pays attention to regional leagues. XFL is trying to do it in American football, trying to eat into NFL's marketshare. NFL had the luxury of building itself for a century so it won't be too hurt. Not the case for rugby and soccer, where that tradition is in the pro-rel system.

RFL is already closed off a lot, only 3 tiers and clubs are denied every year. You can't reduce it one tier, and then expect it to go unchallenged. By the time you are successful as a closed-off SL, the expanded fanbase and investment would pour money into RFLC to rival yours and it would work because there's no barriers to entry!