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Reports suggest Toronto Wolfpack not guaranteed SL place

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My opinion Harry is the RFL and SL have to decide what they are willing to allow , with regards overseas teams and declare as such , personally it's 2 non European and 4 European for the foreseeable ( 10 years ) future , with a reassessment on a 2 yearly basis 

Then everybody knows where they stand 

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1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

My opinion Harry is the RFL and SL have to decide what they are willing to allow , with regards overseas teams and declare as such , personally it's 2 non European and 4 European for the foreseeable ( 10 years ) future , with a reassessment on a 2 yearly basis 

Then everybody knows where they stand 

With all due respect Gubby, you have not offered anything why it will be advantageous for the UK game to "Expand" (again loosely) in the manner you suggest, give me the positives it will bring and how it will be orchestrated to bring about benefits to both the clubs and the game over here, or are you happy for it to be initiated ad-hoc and hopefully learn as we go along.

I would have thought with your background in the game at boardroom level you would have given a better offering and input than just "My Opinion", that was the whole crux of my post, none of the people who favour "Expansion" posts anything with any clarity, I have given what I consider could be of a reaction of reasonable or probable detrimental consequences to the game over here, I am wanting someone willing to put the positives in place which helps the game as a whole here, protects it and adds to it, it will be good for debate.

So please lets play a game, anybody please:-

I am on the panel of Dragons Den, you are the chief executive of The Transatlantic Rugby League, pitch to me why it would be in my interests to invest in the project. 

Edited by Harry Stottle
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1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

My opinion Harry is the RFL and SL have to decide what they are willing to allow , with regards overseas teams and declare as such , personally it's 2 non European and 4 European for the foreseeable ( 10 years ) future , with a reassessment on a 2 yearly basis 

Then everybody knows where they stand 

And these overseas clubs should not be part of P&R into a UK lower league structure. That itself is ridiculous and a complete waste of resources. Ottawa should be preparing to be offered an expanded SL place (or to replace) and existing NA club. York should be battling to replace Wakefield (not Catalans). Toulouse should be joining (or replacing) Catalans etc. We cannot grow when we think like a corner shop operation. 

Edited by Scubby
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5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

With all due respect Gubby, you have not offered anything why it will be advantageous for the UK game to "Expand" (again loosely) in the manner you suggest, give me the positives it will bring and how it will be orchestrated to bring about benefits to both the clubs and the game over here, or are you happy for it to be initiated ad-hoc and hopefully learn as we go along.

I would have thought with your background in the game at boardroom level you would have given a better offering and input than just "My Opinion", that was the whole crux of my post, none of the people who favour "Expansion" posts anything with any clarity, I have given what I consider could be of a reaction of reasonable or probable detrimental consequences to the game over here, I am wanting someone willing to put the positives in place which helps the game as a whole here, protects it and adds to it, it will be good for debate.

So please lets play a game, anybody please:-

I am on the panel of Dragons Den, you are the chief executive of The Transatlantic Rugby League, pitch to me why it would be in my interests to invest in the project. 

In a growing world Harry you grow with it or shrink , similarly you are no doubt aware as you've been ' in business ' that you need to  constantly look for new markets and new customers , I lost my business because as my core product was coming to the end of its life I missed opportunities to change my business from a supply only to a supply and fit one , when I think back it was essentially fear of having to do something new 

So , yes I do think we need to learn as we go along , 2 clubs we can accommodate without too much risk IMO , there isn't any huge financial risk other than to the investors supporting the new clubs , we set the rules , as with most things , let's display some common sense and see where it might take us 

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6 minutes ago, Scubby said:

And these overseas clubs should not be part of P&R into a UK lower league structure. That itself is ridiculous and a complete waste of resources. Ottawa should be preparing to be offered an expanded SL place (or to replace) and existing NA club. York should be battling to replace Wakefield (not Catalans). Toulouse should be joining (or replacing) Catalans etc. We cannot grow when we think like a corner shop operation. 

I do agree with you. We need an injection of new resource and energy. You can see where that is coming from including Newcastle and York as well as those non U.K. teams. Frankly a lot of the pro/semi pro clubs feel very precarious in terms of money and levels of support. TWP are one of the few things in the game that make me feel positive and I’m a very optimistic soul. 

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9 minutes ago, Scubby said:

And these overseas clubs should not be part of P&R into a UK lower league structure. That itself is ridiculous and a complete waste of resources. Ottawa should be preparing to be offered an expanded SL place (or to replace) and existing NA club. York should be battling to replace Wakefield (not Catalans). Toulouse should be joining (or replacing) Catalans etc. We cannot grow when we think like a corner shop operation. 

Again just an opinion, I thought you were a buisness man Scubby,  put some flesh on the bones - if you are capable that is. 

Not at all surprised by Damien's emoji, I expect many more from those with nothing positive to offer.

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9 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Not at all surprised by Damien's emoji, I expect many more from those with nothing positive to offer.

Because you've gone down the route of being obtuse, posting repetitively and making the thread all about you. As for positivity I am certainly more positive than you, you have consistently been the most negative person on this thread. Sad really as I thought you were a better poster than that.

Edited by Damien
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14 minutes ago, EssexRL said:

I do agree with you. We need an injection of new resource and energy. You can see where that is coming from including Newcastle and York as well as those non U.K. teams. Frankly a lot of the pro/semi pro clubs feel very precarious in terms of money and levels of support. TWP are one of the few things in the game that make me feel positive and I’m a very optimistic soul. 

Exactly, but Newcastle and York should be streamlined to potentially oust Wakefield (if they don't get their act together). They shouldn't be fighting it out with Toronto, Toulouse, Catalans, Ottawa, New York like some kind of Fifa 2019 customised league. Stop wasting ####ing money and put it into growth.

As Gubrats said, decide what you want e.g. 8-10 UK clubs, 4 (or whatever) overseas clubs for the next 5 years and replace like for like or fill quotas like for like. You can still have P&R if you really want it but it actually needs to make sense!!

The idea that you have Toronto (full time, NA, huge resources), fighting it out with Featherstone (3 clubs in the same city, using players from other clubs on limited resources) - to replace a club that plays on a park field, reads as ridiculous as it is was to write.

Edited by Scubby
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6 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

In a growing world Harry you grow with it or shrink , similarly you are no doubt aware as you've been ' in business ' that you need to  constantly look for new markets and new customers , I lost my business because as my core product was coming to the end of its life I missed opportunities to change my business from a supply only to a supply and fit one , when I think back it was essentially fear of having to do something new 

So , yes I do think we need to learn as we go along , 2 clubs we can accommodate without too much risk IMO , there isn't any huge financial risk other than to the investors supporting the new clubs , we set the rules , as with most things , let's display some common sense and see where it might take us 

Good post and common sense. It's a pity a small section of fans just want things to stay the same and even shrink as long as their club is okay.

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4 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

In a growing world Harry you grow with it or shrink , similarly you are no doubt aware as you've been ' in business ' that you need to  constantly look for new markets and new customers , I lost my business because as my core product was coming to the end of its life I missed opportunities to change my business from a supply only to a supply and fit one , when I think back it was essentially fear of having to do something new 

So , yes I do think we need to learn as we go along , 2 clubs we can accommodate without too much risk IMO , there isn't any huge financial risk other than to the investors supporting the new clubs , we set the rules , as with most things , let's display some common sense and see where it might take us 

Yes I was in buisness and changed the whole ethos of the company, but it was done on a calculated basis risk free way over a period of time.

I have pointed out what consequential damage I think can accur with a headling dive into so called expansion, nobody refutes that could happen, but also does not offer any alternative.

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On 12/09/2019 at 20:56, Krzzystuff said:

Is that because Toronto typically wins? lol just couldn't help myself, you just hung it out there.

That's an issue Rugby League has in general.  Unlike Soccer games can get very one-side quickly.

Argued for a while we should change the kick return to be the same as the NFL to prevent teams getting rolled over in the first 10.

 

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10 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Again just an opinion, I thought you were a buisness man Scubby,  put some flesh on the bones - if you are capable that is. 

Not at all surprised by Damien's emoji, I expect many more from those with nothing positive to offer.

As a business man, I would ask Toulouse and Toronto exactly how much money has it cost you ####### about trying to weave through a chippy part-time league structure in the UK. Had that money been spent on infrastructure, marketing, player development, outreach etc. - while building towards a SL place in say 2020 or 2021 - what could that have done?

You would then have a UK structure of clubs part-time clubs knowing what they were playing for (e.g. York trying to get promoted to replace Huddersfield or Wakefield) - not wondering who in my squad has a drink driving conviction and needs a day off the building site to play an overseas away game they are going to get thrashed in.

Edited by Scubby
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3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes I was in buisness and changed the whole ethos of the company, but it was done on a calculated basis risk free way over a period of time.

I have pointed out what consequential damage I think can accur with a headling dive into so called expansion, nobody refutes that could happen, but also does not offer any alternative.

Equally Harry I don't think youve acknowledged the risks of not expanding.

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1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes I was in buisness and changed the whole ethos of the company, but it was done on a calculated basis risk free way over a period of time.

I have pointed out what consequential damage I think can accur with a headling dive into so called expansion, nobody refutes that could happen, but also does not offer any alternative.

As I suggest Harry , we set the rules , that is 2 NA teams , as Toronto have done , they take the financial risks , isn't that then done on a calculated basis risk free over a period of time ?

No way am I suggesting ' open door ' to numerous other clubs , although I do believe we have a different strategy with Europe ( France ) where I believe more can be accommodated within the lower tiers as we have seen Toulouse slowly build 

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7 minutes ago, TheLegendOfTexEvans said:

That's an issue Rugby League has in general.  Unlike Soccer games can get very one-side quickly.

Argued for a while we should change the kick return to be the same as the NFL to prevent teams getting rolled over in the first 10.

 

Agree , it is an obvious rule to apply , so no wonder we haven't 🤔

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22 minutes ago, Damien said:

Because you've gone down the route of being obtuse, posting repetitively and making the thread all about you. Sad really as I thought you were a better poster than that.

Damien, you are a cheif exponent of this so called expansion, please tell me in your opinion how it can be rolled out to the best advantage to protect the British game here,  no one it seems can offer anything other than wetting a finger sticking it in the air and waiting to see which way the wind blows. 

Yes I agree it is repetative, but only because no one offers any answers to the questions, have you got any? 

It just seems to me that the band of expansion brother's on these pages believe that sticking together and hoping everything turns out fine is enough of a strategy.

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44 minutes ago, Scubby said:

And these overseas clubs should not be part of P&R into a UK lower league structure. That itself is ridiculous and a complete waste of resources. Ottawa should be preparing to be offered an expanded SL place (or to replace) and existing NA club. York should be battling to replace Wakefield (not Catalans). Toulouse should be joining (or replacing) Catalans etc. We cannot grow when we think like a corner shop operation. 

Ah , well there I disagree , especially with OttAwa , Perez has suggested they are going to " do things differently " , we assume he means potentialy some home produced players , if that's the case then either L1 or Championship to start 

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4 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Damien, you are a cheif exponent of this so called expansion, please tell me in your opinion how it can be rolled out to the best advantage to protect the British game here,  no one it seems can offer anything other than wetting a finger sticking it in the air and waiting to see which way the wind blows. 

Yes I agree it is repetative, but only because no one offers any answers to the questions, have you got any? 

It just seems to me that the band of expansion brother's on these pages believe that sticking together and hoping everything turns out fine is enough of a strategy.

Your suggested plan for growth Harry ? 

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57 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I am on the panel of Dragons Den, you are the chief executive of The Transatlantic Rugby League, pitch to me why it would be in my interests to invest in the project. 

Firstly Harry, I'm a little disappointed with your general negative attitude on things but so be it.  You are coming across as a grumpy old disgruntled man and I know you are better than that.

I'm just about to pull out for the long drive to the game now but just had to reply to your quote.  I actually know someone quite well who turned down a spot as a panelist on the Dragons den....he was approached by them but its not his gig.

How would I sell it to him...simple....its the same problem that IBM faced many years ago...they were the dominant player in the market and they knowingly  chose to ignore software development and put their resources into hardware.  A  little startup called 'Apple' got into  the field of software to fill a vacuum, and we all know how that turned out.  Microsoft also (you might have heard of them).

Its about positive growth and money Harry, you sound like the old executives from IBM who couldn't see past their noses and were afraid of their own shadows.   Think of the Wolfpack and NA expansion like Microsoft and Apple compared to IBM.

RL MUST innovate or die in the modern sports world of today....it has, and currently is, losing market share...and deep inside you know it.  That is what the Naysayers are really afraid of.   You are better than that Harry....now off to the game...I hopefully will read a well thought out response upon my joyful return late tonight.

Signed,

He Who Is Of the Kayak

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22 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Damien, you are a cheif exponent of this so called expansion, please tell me in your opinion how it can be rolled out to the best advantage to protect the British game here,  no one it seems can offer anything other than wetting a finger sticking it in the air and waiting to see which way the wind blows. 

Yes I agree it is repetative, but only because no one offers any answers to the questions, have you got any? 

It just seems to me that the band of expansion brother's on these pages believe that sticking together and hoping everything turns out fine is enough of a strategy.

Read the thread. This has been answered time and again. The trouble is you can't take on board the opinion of others and pompously lecture them by saying things like I've forgot more about Rugby League than you'll ever know.

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42 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Equally Harry I don't think youve acknowledged the risks of not expanding.

Tommy, that is the question I keep asking, how can it be done to avert what I believe could be catastrophic consequences for the game here, as I say nobody disputes the picture I paint as a real possibility, and nobody can give me any way of avoiding it happening if the speed that they want this metamorphosis of the British game should happen.

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1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

Tommy, that is the question I keep asking, how can it be done to avert what I believe could be catastrophic consequences for the game here, as I say nobody disputes the picture I paint as a real possibility, and nobody can give me any way of avoiding it happening if the speed that they want this metamorphosis of the British game should happen.

The picture you paint ( and indeed what Parky suggests ) is one of multiple NA teams coming in displacing existing heartland clubs , that isn't going to happen , we just set the structure now with one simple meeting and announcement , set the limit and the time scale , if that isn't acceptable to them , then that's the end of it , 

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51 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Agree , it is an obvious rule to apply , so no wonder we haven't 🤔

We did. It didn't work and meant a team that were struggling couldn't get away from their own line, gave up possession in a bad place and struggled even more.

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10 minutes ago, Damien said:

Read the thread. This has been answered time and again. The trouble is you can't take on board the opinion of others and pompously lecture them by saying things like I've forgot more about Rugby League than you'll ever know.

Pardon, but what has been answered many times Damien, I have not had one suggestion that what I describe could not happen.

I like to know how things work perhaps that is down to my background of being an engineer, what comes back to me in posing the questions I have done is like the guy who was asked how does an automatic car work and his answer was automatically! 

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7 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

The picture you paint ( and indeed what Parky suggests ) is one of multiple NA teams coming in displacing existing heartland clubs , that isn't going to happen , we just set the structure now with one simple meeting and announcement , set the limit and the time scale , if that isn't acceptable to them , then that's the end of it , 

Gubby (first of all it's ###### with no game to attend don't you think?), have you not been reading these pages or any others for that matter for the last couple of years on this expansion theme and explicitly on the NA venture, there are those who would open the doors of a NA new venture club every season for the next 5 years, if not sooner.

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