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1 minute ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

Can we not use it to showcase the sport also? Isn't that what we want to do? 

Nobody is suggesting it replaces normal rugby, just an addition too for reasons such as promotion to new audiences ūüĎć

But we wouldn't be promoting RL , we'd be promoting 9s , just as twenty/20 promotes twenty/20 , not one day or 4/5 day cricket 

7s rugby union bears no relation to a boring 80 minutes ( 110 if it's a SA v Lions brawl ) kickfest , hence why it has become a completely different sport with little if any overlap with the players 

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2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

But we wouldn't be promoting RL , we'd be promoting 9s , just as twenty/20 promotes twenty/20 , not one day or 4/5 day cricket 

7s rugby union bears no relation to a boring 80 minutes ( 110 if it's a SA v Lions brawl ) kickfest , hence why it has become a completely different sport with little if any overlap with the players 

If it worked as well as 20/20 and RU 7s then it would introduce new people to Rugby League, even if another version. We are not successful enough at raising our profile to dismiss something so easily because it isn't the same as what we already have. Any suggestion needs exploring to see if it can help meet our needs. If not fine but I firmly believe we need to be open minded and innovative, people dismissing thoughts, ideas without exploration is one reason we have struggled to grow.

I've said before I don't like 9s but I'm not the type of person we are trying to attract, I'm already here! I'm a fan of test cricket and don't like 20/20, but that's not the point, plenty people do particularly younger people.

Another risk is people slate it so much they then have a vested interest in its failure, willing it to fail so they can say "I told you so" the RFL/SL or whoever is rubbish.

If I was building a team to grow RL I would want positive engaging and innovative people who make the appropriate due diligence and remain optimistic but realistic. I am sure they would at least explore an idea such as 9s.

I realise you don't like the idea, what idea for promotion of RL and brining in new audiences do you support? 

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3 minutes ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

If it worked as well as 20/20 and RU 7s then it would introduce new people to Rugby League, even if another version. We are not successful enough at raising our profile to dismiss something so easily because it isn't the same as what we already have. Any suggestion needs exploring to see if it can help meet our needs. If not fine but I firmly believe we need to be open minded and innovative, people dismissing thoughts, ideas without exploration is one reason we have struggled to grow.

I've said before I don't like 9s but I'm not the type of person we are trying to attract, I'm already here! I'm a fan of test cricket and don't like 20/20, but that's not the point, plenty people do particularly younger people.

Another risk is people slate it so much they then have a vested interest in its failure, willing it to fail so they can say "I told you so" the RFL/SL or whoever is rubbish.

If I was building a team to grow RL I would want positive engaging and innovative people who make the appropriate due diligence and remain optimistic but realistic. I am sure they would at least explore an idea such as 9s.

I realise you don't like the idea, what idea for promotion of RL and brining in new audiences do you support? 

Good luck, with your last line! LOL

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9s has some, quite limited, potential in the club game imo. We have to be realistic about what it can be though.

Tournaments/festivals in strategic areas and markets that otherwise would not see top flight RL should be where 9s can work. (In Union 7s for example it is in the areas where the event brings together the whole RU community because it is a top level event there are where it has the highest profile and success - USA or Hong Kong).

Even then, I wouldn't be expecting 30k a day to watch. Areas and markets applies to both geography and demographics though which means heartland event(s) should be possible too - but as you'd expect it would have a significant if not total focus on people who wouldn't usually turn up to an RL fixture in these places.

It also undoubtedly should be played in high summer/warm weather. Nothing worse than sitting in a freezing cold stadium watching a load of dropped balls.

9s festivals would open the opportunity for invitational sides to come in. They could reasonably be from wherever given the nature of the game - which opens its own possibilities.

The obvious benefit of RL9s over union 7s is that fundamentally it is still RL. Front rowers and other forwards can still play. It provides a platform therefore for players in these positions to play at a higher level in sides that otherwise would be annihilated at the elite level over 80 minutes.

Edited by Tommygilf
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Stop this obsession with nines, it is a pointless concept with no merit other than as a pre-season warm up that may make, or lose, a club a few bob.

 

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4 minutes ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

If it worked as well as 20/20 and RU 7s then it would introduce new people to Rugby League, even if another version. We are not successful enough at raising our profile to dismiss something so easily because it isn't the same as what we already have. Any suggestion needs exploring to see if it can help meet our needs. If not fine but I firmly believe we need to be open minded and innovative, people dismissing thoughts, ideas without exploration is one reason we have struggled to grow.

I've said before I don't like 9s but I'm not the type of person we are trying to attract, I'm already here! I'm a fan of test cricket and don't like 20/20, but that's not the point, plenty people do particularly younger people.

Another risk is people slate it so much they then have a vested interest in its failure, willing it to fail so they can say "I told you so" the RFL/SL or whoever is rubbish.

If I was building a team to grow RL I would want positive engaging and innovative people who make the appropriate due diligence and remain optimistic but realistic. I am sure they would at least explore an idea such as 9s.

I realise you don't like the idea, what idea for promotion of RL and brining in new audiences do you support? 

Innovation to me is not 9s. Even the 7s has sort of faded away despite World Rugby (away with that name, jokers) to continue pushing it. It hasn't actually led to any noticeable improvement in weaker nations.

Innovation involves moving beyond the M62 corridor and building the sport in all parts of the country and beyond.

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3 minutes ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

If it worked as well as 20/20 and RU 7s then it would introduce new people to Rugby League, even if another version. We are not successful enough at raising our profile to dismiss something so easily because it isn't the same as what we already have. Any suggestion needs exploring to see if it can help meet our needs. If not fine but I firmly believe we need to be open minded and innovative, people dismissing thoughts, ideas without exploration is one reason we have struggled to grow.

I've said before I don't like 9s but I'm not the type of person we are trying to attract, I'm already here! I'm a fan of test cricket and don't like 20/20, but that's not the point, plenty people do particularly younger people.

Another risk is people slate it so much they then have a vested interest in its failure, willing it to fail so they can say "I told you so" the RFL/SL or whoever is rubbish.

If I was building a team to grow RL I would want positive engaging and innovative people who make the appropriate due diligence and remain optimistic but realistic. I am sure they would at least explore an idea such as 9s.

I realise you don't like the idea, what idea for promotion of RL and brining in new audiences do you support? 

9s has a place , just as 7s had a place , that was in developing new markets outside the countries that don't currently play the longer versions of the sport 

Football ( soccer ) can be played competitively by 2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 ad infinitum , rugby is very different , and it is difficult to find 26 people willing to play what can be the hardest most physical team sport in existence , compared to football the rules and basic tactics and indeed skills are much more complicated ( union especially ) , so a shorter version makes it easier to get new countries to try to play ' Rugby ' , that isn't something we are trying to do , we are trying to get new ' watchers ' , improve the core sport , not pretend it's something else 

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3 minutes ago, redjonn said:

funny enough I'd go...

Me too ūüėČ

At the start of licencing I posted several idea's that I suggested the lower tiers needed to explore to find their way and survive/grow , one of them would have been an " Easyjet Cup " , played in northern Spain in late January , with Elite 1 clubs , not necessarily a 9s but a shortened time game , with whatever number of players was sensible , a 6/7 day tournament , it is in that sort of situation where a shortened version of the sport would be viable 

As Padge suggested , pre season warm up , with as others have suggested , invited expansion teams 

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14 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

9s has a place , just as 7s had a place , that was in developing new markets outside the countries that don't currently play the longer versions of the sport 

Football ( soccer ) can be played competitively by 2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 ad infinitum , rugby is very different , and it is difficult to find 26 people willing to play what can be the hardest most physical team sport in existence , compared to football the rules and basic tactics and indeed skills are much more complicated ( union especially ) , so a shorter version makes it easier to get new countries to try to play ' Rugby ' , that isn't something we are trying to do , we are trying to get new ' watchers ' , improve the core sport , not pretend it's something else 

Also makes it easier to build events.  A 9's tournament one of  the two mid season international weekends would be worth a go.  

Book a  snug stadium over Saturday and Sunday in London or Cardiff. Have 4 or 5 nations, chance for games to stay close.  Men and Womens. Finals on Sunday.  Make it an event with the mascots,  maybe a performer at the break. I prefer proper league but if it gets new eyeballs why not ?

Edited by ShropshireBull
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If someone suggested RL clubs joined forces and formed regional mash-up 9s teams like West Yorkshire Tykes, Cumbria Lakers, Humber Eels, Merseyside Storm, France Revolution, Jamaica Bolts, Welsh Dragons, London Pride etc you’d be laughed at.

But that’s what cricket has done with The Hundred and it’s a hit. Would it be so mad to try it, with a view to having a cities circuit with the emphasis on having a good time in high summer, e.g Newcastle 9s at Kingston Park, Leeds 9s at Headingley and London 9s at Wimbledon? 

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29 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Also makes it easier to build events.  A 9's tournament one of  the two mid season international weekends would be worth a go.  

Book a  snug stadium over Saturday and Sunday in London or Cardiff. Have 4 or 5 nations, chance for games to stay close.  Men and Womens. Finals on Sunday.  Make it an event with the mascots,  maybe a performer at the break. I prefer proper league but if it gets new eyeballs why not ?

Again , you are suggesting an International time filler for fans attending who are not there to support ' their ' club 

So maybe 

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3 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

If someone suggested RL clubs joined forces and formed regional mash-up 9s teams like West Yorkshire Tykes, Cumbria Lakers, Humber Eels, Merseyside Storm, France Revolution, Jamaica Bolts, Welsh Dragons, London Pride etc you’d be laughed at.

But that’s what cricket has done with The Hundred and it’s a hit. Would it be so mad to try it, with a view to having a cities circuit with the emphasis on having a good time in high summer, e.g Newcastle 9s at Kingston Park, Leeds 9s at Headingley and London 9s at Wimbledon? 

Sheeeeesh , again , the 100 has chopped out the boring bits , that's it , nothing else , it's still longer than a game of RL , we don't need to shorten the time played or the numbers playing , just cut out the 5 drives and a kick , change the rules if necessary to give you what you want , as I suggested , restart every ' set ' at the half way line , score or give up possession on the half way 

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4 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

If someone suggested RL clubs joined forces and formed regional mash-up 9s teams like West Yorkshire Tykes, Cumbria Lakers, Humber Eels, Merseyside Storm, France Revolution, Jamaica Bolts, Welsh Dragons, London Pride etc you’d be laughed at.

But that’s what cricket has done with The Hundred and it’s a hit. Would it be so mad to try it, with a view to having a cities circuit with the emphasis on having a good time in high summer, e.g Newcastle 9s at Kingston Park, Leeds 9s at Headingley and London 9s at Wimbledon? 

Don't need to do that. A 9s competition can't be limited to existing clubs within the SL/Championship.

Want to grow the game through a 9s completion then have a place for developing teams as well. Leicester Storm, Nottingham Outlaws, etc. These are the places which need to be targeted.

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6 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Again , you are suggesting an International time filler for fans attending who are not there to support ' their ' club 

So maybe 

Well I think if the aim is to use 9's to grow the sport and internationals are massively undertapped in regards to potential, then a mid season weekend international 9's I think would be perfect.

1) It's internationals which makes it more marketable than Salford Wakefield 9's.

2) Shorter length games have the potential to be more competitive so blowouts arent so common.

3) We can take it to target markets with no negative preconcieved notions of the sport attached. 

Lets have a 'proper mid season international' next year but also give a second weekend, outside of the footy season, over to this and give it a go. 

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3 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Sheeeeesh , again , the 100 has chopped out the boring bits , that's it , nothing else , it's still longer than a game of RL , we don't need to shorten the time played or the numbers playing , just cut out the 5 drives and a kick , change the rules if necessary to give you what you want , as I suggested , restart every ' set ' at the half way line , score or give up possession on the half way 

You could certainly find ways to jazz it up to make it more entertaining though I haven’t given it any thought.

It’s not really about the rugby and pleasing old f@rts anyway. It’s about attracting a new, younger audience. That’s what The Hundred is, it’s essentially an advert for the sport of cricket. 

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3 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

You could certainly find ways to jazz it up to make it more entertaining though I haven’t given it any thought.

It’s not really about the rugby and pleasing old f@rts anyway. It’s about attracting a new, younger audience. That’s what The Hundred is, it’s essentially an advert for the sport of cricket. 

Yes , because one day cricket was 75% boring , 4 day cricket was 90% boring , and 5 day cricket quite often was 99% boring 

So they've cut the boring bits , so the new younger audience will be enthralled , with the 100 , and bored to tears with all the longer versions 

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1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

Yes , because one day cricket was 75% boring , 4 day cricket was 90% boring , and 5 day cricket quite often was 99% boring 

So they've cut the boring bits , so the new younger audience will be enthralled , with the 100 , and bored to tears with all the longer versions 

Some will, some won’t. Some will take up playing the game, some won’t. The point is they are engaged with cricket. 

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1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

So an International 9s competition held in the most RL mad city in the world , containing large numbers of ex pat immigrants from the majority of the countries taking place , and they held it in a stadium half the size of the one being suggested we take our club 9s to ? 

Seriously ?

That's what I mean, think only about 5k a day turned up....

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I was against nines, but....

Compared to Loop Fixtures, a nines series is a superior product....

The last nines series tried had potential but it lasted one season ūüėā shock....& was mostly depth squad players, reserves & academies, no 1st team players really.¬†

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50 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Sheeeeesh , again , the 100 has chopped out the boring bits , that's it , nothing else , it's still longer than a game of RL , we don't need to shorten the time played or the numbers playing , just cut out the 5 drives and a kick , change the rules if necessary to give you what you want , as I suggested , restart every ' set ' at the half way line , score or give up possession on the half way 

The Hundred has done a lot more than just shorten further T20 cricket. They realised that 18 counties with names like Middlesex and Glamorgan perhaps don't resonate with some people, and they realised that having a smaller number of elite teams, playing a smaller number of matches in a shortish period of time, is likely to give people better opportunities to engage with the 'tournament' than might otherwise be possible.

It has certainly worked for me. I've watched all the Southern Brave matches and a fair number involving neutral teams too. I feel more able to commit to it because I know that I've only got to find time for 8 matches over the space of a few weeks. If it was 30 matches over several months, I wouldn't be able to sustain my interest, as football and other things would encroach on that.

I will always try to watch England play, including test matches (the Ashes is still the pinnacle for me), and I'll try and keep an eye on Hampshire when I can (mostly in the T20's), but I'm trying to juggle a lot of things. To have an elite and condensed tournament, with all the trimmings such as top coaches like Shane Warne, new kits and names, big stadiums etc. is really great for me. It's making me watch more cricket than I otherwise would have done. That surely must be a good thing from the perspective of the sport in general.

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43 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Yes , because one day cricket was 75% boring , 4 day cricket was 90% boring , and 5 day cricket quite often was 99% boring 

So they've cut the boring bits , so the new younger audience will be enthralled , with the 100 , and bored to tears with all the longer versions 

Have they though?  From my perspective the boring part of the one day cricket formats is that one team puts up a score, the other team chases that score that's the sum of what's involved.  Momentum doesn't switch from one team to the other, the lead never changes hands, etc.  I don't see how a couple of tweaks could change that.

I'm fully in agreement with you that in RL the rules of the game need to be looked at to produce a better on-field product and nines isn't an answer.

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A lot of comments have been made about how the game should go forward but is there yet another way?

For quite a few years I have thought about this analogy between a Government Department and the RFL/SL.

Once upon a time a Government Department created new legislation that initially looked to have addressed a particular issue - for RL look at the introduction of SL and influx of money

However, over a number of years the particular issue that the Government Department thought they had addressed continued to evolve due to differing internal and externals factors - for RL look at the decrease in income from TV, dwindling crowds, lack of international matches, lack of visibility in the media, lack of growth at all levels of the game etc.

So in response the Government Department,¬†not wanting to show that their legislation is now inadequate, starts to ‚Äėbolt‚Äô¬†on new legislation¬†in the hope of finding a formula that plugs the gap -¬†in RFL and SL this refers to the continued change of league structure;¬†licensing or not; address loss of TV income; fewer amateur teams; fewer people playing the game etc.

What neither a Government Department nor SL/RFL will do is to realise that bolting on legislation usually fails to fully resolve an issue and just leads to further tweaking being required at some point in the future.

Sometimes the best course of action for a Government Department, and usually the most difficult decision to take - bearing in mind the Department is actually stating that they have failed in addressing the issue through the tweaking of legislation - is to have the strength of character to admit that have got it wrong and will start again with a blank sheet of paper and listen to all viewpoints - IMHO I believe that the time is right fir the RFL and SL to sit down with a blank sheet of paper and build a shared vision for the game but unfortunately for RL in the UK I believe that the decision makers in the RFL and SL are just as stubborn as Government Departments.

 

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On 30/07/2021 at 19:01, ShropshireBull said:

2 tens, unless it is one competition but two conferences of ten, is dire... 

This is the fundamental issue, but...

I can accept a 2 divisions of 10 SL as long as it's a time-limited stepping stone to the 2 conferences version. It has to be a means to an end.

The only good thing to come out of the 8s debacle is that it increased the quality and interest of the second tier by playing regular games against the top flight teams.

So, here's my take:

Initially, 2 divisions of 'SL 10s' for limited time only (say, 5 years, but coordinated with selling the TV rights) after which two equal conferences. This allows time for new teams to develop and existing teams to get up to speed. All teams should be full time with reserves and academies by the end of the phasing-in period.

Each team plays home and away against its own division and 5 home 5 away against the other division. The cross-divisional games are spread through the season. The same structure would apply to the conferences. At the moment, the gap between the top 10 and bottom 10 is too wide, so any mixed conferences would involve more than half the games (15/28) as one-sided affairs.

18 + 10 = 28 regular fixtures (14 home games)

Challenge cup, potentially up to 5 games - SL1 only enter at last 16, so 4 rounds

Play-offs, up to 4 games - top 16, highest placed at home against lowest placed, straight knock-out. With 2 conferences it would be top 8 from each one. Having expanded play-offs means that it makes it one competition as all teams can (in theory) win the main prize at the start of the season. Each year, the bottom 4 teams' places will be up for review and compared with teams outside the 20 (franchise style)

Magic (if retained) as a 9s comp with proper sponsorship and an irresistible prize fund to ensure 1st team representation. All teams would play on both days, keeping more fans attending both days. The 9s have never been done properly over here and the magic weekend is an ideal opportunity to establish it. Invitational teams, women's comp etc. fill the whole weekend.

A total of between 31 and 38 games.

Internationals can be played on weekends of cross-division games. All teams must release players selected. I have no issue with games played on the same weekend, just not the same day.

P & R between the 2 divisions - 2 up to down initially and maybe increasing to 3 up 3 down towards the end of the divisions.

Sky money initially divided by 30 with SL1 getting 2 shares (1/15) and SL2 getting one share (half of SL1). Money to be gradually equalised as the conference structure approaches.

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  • John Drake changed the title to League Restructure Thread (Merged Threads)

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