Jump to content

Westerman, England squad?


Recommended Posts

11 minutes ago, Szymala said:

Westerman has never been quite good enough as his meagre tally of caps illustrates.

I don't  think this really comes into it the number of caps a player has, there are many who have a load of caps who was the choice of the coach at the time, on the other hand there are number of player's who should have won caps but were disregarded by the coach at the time, remember the time some coaches thought it better to play forwards in the Stand-Off or Centre position purely as a defensive measure and completely disregarding the offensive side of the game.

Wayne Bennett did it in the last WC and I will catagorically say he was wrong, one of our main strike force weapons Ryan Hall was a passenger in 8 matches, including the final, look at the scoreboard for confirmation.

  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


16 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Knowles is ahead of Westerman, but I can see the benefit of starting the game with 3 props, Walmsley, Oledzki, Burgess, Thompson, Sutton, Lees, Cooper will be in the mix. Australia, New Zealand, Tonga, Samoa have so much size starting with 3 props will help us match them.

The player's who represent Australia, NZ, Tonga, Fiji etc, will be used to these types of players every week Kev, with the exception of Walmsley who has the abillity to off load the ball, the second rows that are in the train on squad are mainly edge player's, we need someone to offer something different in the forwards, Westerman can fill that gap - if he is playing well enough at the end of the season. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

The player's who represent Australia, NZ, Tonga, Fiji etc, will be used to these types of players every week Kev, with the exception of Walmsley who has the abillity to off load the ball, the second rows that are in the train on squad are mainly edge player's, we need someone to offer something different in the forwards, Westerman can fill that gap - if he is playing well enough at the end of the season. 

What's the obsession with wanting to use an 'inferior' player just because he manages a couple more offloads at club level ??

The fact remains his all round game is nowhere near as good as that of Knowles (or Sutton IMO). Westerman is in his 15th year as a 1st team player and the only thing he's been consistent with is the inconsistency of his performances.

You may not like it but when it comes to knockout competitions like the WC you need to play the percentages because its win at all costs. Its no point having a guy in there that might get 1 good offload in a game but not put in that extra effort, workrate & defensive strength that shuts down a dozen other plays during a game.

One of the main reasons the Aussies have been so successful is their whole game is based around having a solid defence, and having players (particularly in the forwards) who have high workrates. Admittedly they then have the luxury if plenty of backs who can do something spectacular which England probably don't, but they're always defensively strong. If England can't match them at that then they won't give themselves a chance.

  • Like 2

St.Helens - The Home of record breaking Rugby Champions

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

What's the obsession with wanting to use an 'inferior' player just because he manages a couple more offloads at club level ??

The fact remains his all round game is nowhere near as good as that of Knowles (or Sutton IMO). Westerman is in his 15th year as a 1st team player and the only thing he's been consistent with is the inconsistency of his performances.

You may not like it but when it comes to knockout competitions like the WC you need to play the percentages because its win at all costs. Its no point having a guy in there that might get 1 good offload in a game but not put in that extra effort, workrate & defensive strength that shuts down a dozen other plays during a game.

One of the main reasons the Aussies have been so successful is their whole game is based around having a solid defence, and having players (particularly in the forwards) who have high workrates. Admittedly they then have the luxury if plenty of backs who can do something spectacular which England probably don't, but they're always defensively strong. If England can't match them at that then they won't give themselves a chance.

How long have we been playing percentages with the emphasis on a defensive stratergy Toppy, a very long time and I have been witness to quite a lot of them.

Let us just single out the Aussies here, what good has it done us in any test series, 3 or 4 nations, or WC there is a common denominator of playing percentage and defensive football WE LOSE, like the obsession with playing Farrell, Sculthorpe or Sinfield at Stand Off, I have the proof it didn't work I just consult the record books, don't you know that the best form of defense is offense.

I have no doubt Mr Wane will adopt your attitude, and I will state here and now we will lose again, it could very well be we don't win should my suggestion be adopted, but what you state has been tried till the cows come home one would think the penny should have dropped by know, should we reserve this discussion for November time?

Edited by Harry Stottle
Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

How long have we been playing percentages with the emphasis on a defensive stratergy Toppy, a very long time and I have been witness to quite a lot of them.

Let us just single out the Aussies here, what good has it done us in any test series, 3 or 4 nations, or WC there is a common denominator of playing percentage and defensive football WE LOSE, like the obsession with playing Farrell, Sculthorpe or Sinfield at Stand Off, I have the proof it didn't work I just consult the record books, don't you know that the best form of defense is offense.

I have no doubt Mr Wane will adopt your attitude, and I will state here and now we will lose again, it could very well be we don't win should my suggestion be adopted, but what you state has been tried till the cows come home one would think the penny should have dropped by know, should we reserve this discussion for November time?

Strange argument -if we lose by playing our best player then so be it, but what your suggesting is playing inferior players instead. You do realise that would just result in even bigger losses don't you ???

So Westerman might get an offload that might result in a try - utterly pointless if he then misses the tackles players like Knowles or Sutton would have made or doesn't shut down the plays those players would have done and then the team concedes 3 or 4 more try's.

Westerman has a slightly better offensive game with his ability to offload, but that's far outweighed by his all round game compared to players like Knowles & Sutton. Westrman isn't the best 13 that England have available IMO he's probably only 4th choice behind Knowles, Sutton & Whitehead. And if its size & tackle busting ability that Wane wants to go with to start a game and utilise a 3rd prop then its likely he'd go with someone like Thompson.

  • Like 3

St.Helens - The Home of record breaking Rugby Champions

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Strange argument -if we lose by playing our best player then so be it, but what your suggesting is playing inferior players instead. You do realise that would just result in even bigger losses don't you ???

So Westerman might get an offload that might result in a try - utterly pointless if he then misses the tackles players like Knowles or Sutton would have made or doesn't shut down the plays those players would have done and then the team concedes 3 or 4 more try's.

Westerman has a slightly better offensive game with his ability to offload, but that's far outweighed by his all round game compared to players like Knowles & Sutton. Westrman isn't the best 13 that England have available IMO he's probably only 4th choice behind Knowles, Sutton & Whitehead. And if its size & tackle busting ability that Wane wants to go with to start a game and utilise a 3rd prop then its likely he'd go with someone like Thompson.

Not a strange argument at all, in your mind the team you pick is our best player's!

You have side stepped my argument that we have tried and tested the same old percentage and defensive stratergies for 40 odd years you champion, like I said do the same again and you gaurentee we lose again, it will be very easy for Mal Meninga "you know what they are going to do guy's, no problem" again we will resume this discussion come November, or it could be earlier than that when we play the All Stars, or Fiji, or when we exit the comp.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Not a strange argument at all, in your mind the team you pick is our best player's!

You have side stepped my argument that we have tried and tested the same old percentage and defensive stratergies for 40 odd years you champion, like I said do the same again and you gaurentee we lose again, it will be very easy for Mal Meninga "you know what they are going to do guy's, no problem" again we will resume this discussion come November, or it could be earlier than that when we play the All Stars, or Fiji, or when we exit the comp.

I'm really not sure what argument your still trying to put forward here ? - is it the style of play from the England team or are you still insistent the coach pick 'inferior' players just because we've failed to beat the top teams in the past ?

If its a change in style then fair enough, although you still need to bear in mind that Knowles is a big part of a  team who consistently score more points than most other teams in SL year after year.

If its the latter then I guess i'll just never understand why someone would want to pick the 3rd / 4th best player available in a position over the best ones ?

St.Helens - The Home of record breaking Rugby Champions

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

I'm really not sure what argument your still trying to put forward here ? - is it the style of play from the England team or are you still insistent the coach pick 'inferior' players just because we've failed to beat the top teams in the past ?

If its a change in style then fair enough, although you still need to bear in mind that Knowles is a big part of a  team who consistently score more points than most other teams in SL year after year.

If its the latter then I guess i'll just never understand why someone would want to pick the 3rd / 4th best player available in a position over the best ones ?

Look back in the thread, I said I would have both Knowles and Westerman in the team, but yes I want a change in style, offer something that takes the game to the opposition (Aussies) instead of just trying to contain them ala Bennett with his Bateman in the centre fiasco, play a centre with Hall and that increases our chances of scoring immensely. This is what I think we should do in the forwards as I said we only have Walmsley we need to mix it up and give them something to think about.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Look back in the thread, I said I would have both Knowles and Westerman in the team, but yes I want a change in style, offer something that takes the game to the opposition (Aussies) instead of just trying to contain them ala Bennett with his Bateman in the centre fiasco, play a centre with Hall and that increases our chances of scoring immensely. This is what I think we should do in the forwards as I said we only have Walmsley we need to mix it up and give them something to think about.

So you agree with me then that we play the best players available in their best positions ?

So best wingers on the wing, best centres at centre, best LF at LF ??

or do you want them to pick the 4th best LF at LF (with Westerman) and like Bennett did by picking probably the 10th best available centre at centre (with Bateman) or the 50th best available winger on the wing (with Austin) 

St.Helens - The Home of record breaking Rugby Champions

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

So you agree with me then that we play the best players available in their best positions ?

So best wingers on the wing, best centres at centre, best LF at LF ??

or do you want them to pick the 4th best LF at LF (with Westerman) and like Bennett did by picking probably the 10th best available centre at centre (with Bateman) or the 50th best available winger on the wing (with Austin) 

Now it's getting silly, Knowles for me could do a second row job he has all the attributes I would most definatley put him ahead of who I expect Mr Wane will favour with his Wigan connection at SR, but we need that second ball player (Walmsley can't be expected to play 80 mins a game) as far as I'm concerned in the LF position and the best one for that ON CURRENT FORM IS Westerman, with the best will in the world even Morgan's mum would have to admit that he is behind Westrman as a ball handler, whether Westerman  remains with this form throughout the season only time will tell, I hope he does, on this form he us exhibiting he will be an asset.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

Now it's getting silly, Knowles for me could do a second row job he has all the attributes I would most definatley put him ahead of who I expect Mr Wane will favour with his Wigan connection at SR, but we need that second ball player (Walmsley can't be expected to play 80 mins a game) as far as I'm concerned in the LF position and the best one for that ON CURRENT FORM IS Westerman, with the best will in the world even Morgan's mum would have to admit that he is behind Westrman as a ball handler, whether Westerman  remains with this form throughout the season only time will tell, I hope he does, on this form he us exhibiting he will be an asset.

Now you are getting silly - seems like its only you, his own coach and the 2 ex Sky muppets who think Westerman is a better LF than Knowles.

As for Westerman being a better ball handler - is he ?? based on what ??

Knowles regularly acts as a 1st receiver or takes it to line before passing out, its a big part of his game. He also played junior rugby at 6 & 9 (and played 9 a few times in Saints 1st team) so arguably his passing is as good if not better than Westerman's.

The only facet that Westerman is more noted for and adept at is offloading. But given pretty much every other facet of the game he's not at the same standard as Knowles then I really don't see why your so insistent on having him as a 1st choice LF before a player who's clearly much better. He offers more in just 1 aspect of the game but a lot less in all the rest

St.Helens - The Home of record breaking Rugby Champions

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I certainly wouldn't be looking to play Knowles at 2nd row.  He is a middle forward and that's where he should be selected if he is.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I certainly wouldn't be looking to play Knowles at 2nd row.  He is a middle forward and that's where he should be selected if he is.

Second rows can be middles Dunny, they don't have to play in the centre's.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

59 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Second rows can be middles Dunny, they don't have to play in the centre's.

Oooh lets play Westerman at 2nd row then - he'll only be the 10th best option in that position instead of 4th best at LF 🤣

St.Helens - The Home of record breaking Rugby Champions

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Second rows can be middles Dunny, they don't have to play in the centre's.

Defending and attacking on the edge is a very different role than playing in the middle.  Of course there are some players who can switch between the two but it is not massively common and when you look at Bateman at Wigan and Whitehead at Canberra we can see two players who are very good on the edge not being nearly as effective in the centre.  Conversely, when the Cowboys experimented with Jason Taumalolo on the edge, he wasn't nearly as effective - same with Cam Murray at Souths.

I would even go as far to say that playing a regular middle forward on the edge in internationals is a bigger risk than playing an edge forward in the centre (i.e. John Bateman for example that you are so adamant is a bad idea).

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 07/04/2022 at 09:07, fighting irish said:

Don't forget 'Arry, you are displaying the (audacity) temerity to favour Westerman over a ''Saints'' player, so you should have expected that kind of response. 

And a Yorkshireman.

  • Haha 1

Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.

http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

How long have we been playing percentages with the emphasis on a defensive stratergy Toppy, a very long time and I have been witness to quite a lot of them.

Let us just single out the Aussies here, what good has it done us in any test series, 3 or 4 nations, or WC there is a common denominator of playing percentage and defensive football WE LOSE, like the obsession with playing Farrell, Sculthorpe or Sinfield at Stand Off, I have the proof it didn't work I just consult the record books, don't you know that the best form of defense is offense.

I have no doubt Mr Wane will adopt your attitude, and I will state here and now we will lose again, it could very well be we don't win should my suggestion be adopted, but what you state has been tried till the cows come home one would think the penny should have dropped by know, should we reserve this discussion for November time?

Funny how when Farrell & Scunthorpe played stand-off they were usually our best & most creative players in those tests,playing one of those at 6 allowed the other to play 13.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Westerman is a good solid Superleague player who has the ability to have the odd outstanding game but c’mon an England starter at loose forward for a player who’s most memorable moment is him putting his own dislocated knee back in during a game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

Mick Crane at 13.  He had more skill than Westerman and Knowles combined.

If he'd looked after himself he could have been anything.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

Oooh lets play Westerman at 2nd row then - he'll only be the 10th best option in that position instead of 4th best at LF 🤣

I thought we were having a civilised conversation just goes to show how wrong one can be, grow up.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Davo5 said:

Funny how when Farrell & Scunthorpe played stand-off they were usually our best & most creative players in those tests,playing one of those at 6 allowed the other to play 13.

Still lost in all the series they played Dav, not that it was their fault two great players in their respective positions LF or SR, still ould have played a Briers to give more options, now don't say I'm wrong he could have made a difference than the two aforementioned didn't accomplish.

Edited by Harry Stottle
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Still lost in all the series they played Dav, not that it was their fault two great players in their respective positions LF or SR, still ould have played a Briers to give more options, now don't say I'm wrong he could have made a difference than the two aforementioned didn't accomplish.

We lost all those tests/series because 1-17 we were inferior to Australia and not because we played 1 of those 2 in the halves and that continues to be the problem and picking a journeyman to play in a pivotal role isn’t going to change that.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...