IMG - Vote on Wednesday

[Cerulean]

4 hours ago, gingerjon said:

FFS.

....

An unnecessary expletive. There are about a dozen posters on here who consider themselves to be the reservoir of all wisdom on rugby league, pouring scorn on those who don’t bow to their superior viewpoint. It sets an uncomfortable tone.

As all employees of poor management know, there is no such thing as a good idea, there are only untested hypotheses: For the IMG thoughts to become sufficiently meaningful to be acted on, they need to be thoroughly examined, thought through, evaluated, quantified, pathways to outcome explained, fine details considered. The question is: who derives those pathways and fine details? And there is a suspicion that the ones who will control the output, those really in charge, the owners of the top few teams in Super League, are driven by self-interest, and not the interest of rugby league as a whole. This is an internet forum, it’s interesting to hear all contributions, and it will be entertaining to measure these contributions against the eventual outcome.

 

[gingerjon]

17 hours ago, idrewthehaggis said:

demonstrates that IMG don't get the Game.

 

57 minutes ago, Cerulean said:

posters on here who consider themselves to be the reservoir of all wisdom on rugby league,

Yup.

[Jughead]

Super League clubs coming in a round earlier and whacking clubs for 70+ points isn’t interesting, exciting or in any way going to make people attend the final come May or June or July or August or whatever month they decide the final is in based on a whim. We’ll soon remember why we moved away from bringing clubs into the competition at such a stage when these results occur, just as they did previously, and when crowds are poor. 

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Jughead said:

Super League clubs coming in a round earlier and whacking clubs for 70+ points isn’t interesting, exciting or in any way going to make people attend the final come May or June or July or August or whatever month they decide the final is in based on a whim. We’ll soon remember why we moved away from bringing clubs into the competition at such a stage when these results occur, just as they did previously, and when crowds are poor. 

I don't necessarily disagree, but you ate ignoring the attractive element of it. It allows for the luck of the draw to come into play. By having a more open draw you have more chance of SL clubs meeting each other and knocking some out, adding some uncertainty and unpredictability, which has been a draw of the cup. 

Only bringing in the 12 SL Clubs in at the last 16 stage is a round too late for me in terms of interest. The chances now are that you are just going to get a standard draw against a normal SL team. 

[DI Keith Fowler]

9 minutes ago, Jughead said:

Super League clubs coming in a round earlier and whacking clubs for 70+ points isn’t interesting, exciting or in any way going to make people attend the final come May or June or July or August or whatever month they decide the final is in based on a whim. We’ll soon remember why we moved away from bringing clubs into the competition at such a stage when these results occur, just as they did previously, and when crowds are poor. 

Just throwing it out there but, handicap the SL teams in the early rounds. They can only play under 25's (or some other arbitrary cut off) with one or two old heads. It might not allow Swinton to win the Challenge cup but it might provide a few upsets and gate receipts for clubs who could use it.

I expect you'd get what you have now by the quarters but it might provide some intrigue in the early rounds.

[Jughead]

7 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I don't necessarily disagree, but you ate ignoring the attractive element of it. It allows for the luck of the draw to come into play. By having a more open draw you have more chance of SL clubs meeting each other and knocking some out, adding some uncertainty and unpredictability, which has been a draw of the cup. 

Only bringing in the 12 SL Clubs in at the last 16 stage is a round too late for me in terms of interest. The chances now are that you are just going to get a standard draw against a normal SL team. 

How long does the novelty last? Crowds of 652, 2,788, 1,965, 3,879, 3,210, 4,198 and 3,563 when Super League sides hosted lower league opposition at round four stage in the last four seasons before the change in format suggests there wasn’t and, arguably, isn’t an attractiveness and even after a period, I’d expect crowds to drop down again to those sort of numbers. I also don’t agree with forcing the draw and having lower league opposition as the home side. The draw element of a knockout competition is very important (IMO) and again, what happens when the novelty of a lower league team away every year wears off, which I think it will? 

[Jughead]

2 minutes ago, DI Keith Fowler said:

Just throwing it out there but, handicap the SL teams in the early rounds. They can only play under 25's (or some other arbitrary cut off) with one or two old heads. It might not allow Swinton to win the Challenge cup but it might provide a few upsets and gate receipts for clubs who could use it.

I expect you'd get what you have now by the quarters but it might provide some intrigue in the early rounds.

I don’t get these arguments. 

Sport is seemingly moving, or attempt to move, from being aligned with betting and betting companies. I can’t see why any credible sport would handicap teams or why they would use a system that is so deeply linked with gambling. 

It’s not feasible in any way, either, which makes it a non-starter, which is great. 

[Dave T]

Just now, Jughead said:

How long does the novelty last? Crowds of 652, 2,788, 1,965, 3,879, 3,210, 4,198 and 3,563 when Super League sides hosted lower league opposition at round four stage in the last four seasons before the change in format suggests there wasn’t and, arguably, isn’t an attractiveness and even after a period, I’d expect crowds to drop down again to those sort of numbers. I also don’t agree with forcing the draw and having lower league opposition as the home side. The draw element of a knockout competition is very important (IMO) and again, what happens when the novelty of a lower league team away every year wears off, which I think it will? 

The problem is, crowd numbers have been just as bad for some all-SL clashes. Wasn't it as low as 2.5k at Wire this year? More were at Whitehaven I think for them hosting Saints. 

[Toby Chopra]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I don't necessarily disagree, but you ate ignoring the attractive element of it. It allows for the luck of the draw to come into play. By having a more open draw you have more chance of SL clubs meeting each other and knocking some out, adding some uncertainty and unpredictability, which has been a draw of the cup. 

Only bringing in the 12 SL Clubs in at the last 16 stage is a round too late for me in terms of interest. The chances now are that you are just going to get a standard draw against a normal SL team. 

I agree the nature of the tournament would change, and a maybe that would be a good thing for generating more interest in a wider selection of clubs. I still don't think you'd get actual giantkilling, just a lower div clubs lucking their way through to the semis by avoiding the big guns. But it still might be worth doing. 

I have my doubts though on whether this would make a difference in restoring the final to an event that people from all over the game attend, like they used to. I think people would just have other reasons not to go. I'm also not sure how magic canaibalises it, as img put it. Will more non-finalist superleague fans go, if they're not going to Newcastle to see their own club? 

If the CCF is to be revived, I think it'll be the other bit of IMG's remit - media, marketing, comms etc - that will do it. 

[Jughead]

6 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The problem is, crowd numbers have been just as bad for some all-SL clashes. Wasn't it as low as 2.5k at Wire this year? More were at Whitehaven I think for them hosting Saints. 

They have but I think there’s more to that regarding how many games are played in Super League as much as a lack of attractiveness because the cup isn’t what it once was.

As I say, would there be that kind of crowd every year when fans know that they’re going to be doing the same again next year and where one set of fans are, in many cases, going to get dumped out convincingly.

I think the random draw element is important to preserve. Manufacturing it isn’t for me. I know it’s done in German football and it seems to work for them but I don’t know if it’s something for us. There are so few teams in the sport compared to other sports so only so many variations of clubs you can face. 

Also, I don’t see how Oldham playing Wakefield or Hunslet playing Salford creates a greater demand for final tickets. 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Jughead

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, Toby Chopra said:

I'm also not sure how magic canaibalises it, as img put it.

I think it's just an acknowledgement that we're selling more and more events to the same fans over and over.

That doesn't happen in other sports.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Toby Chopra said:

I agree the nature of the tournament would change, and a maybe that would be a good thing for generating more interest in a wider selection of clubs. I still don't think you'd get actual giantkilling, just a lower div clubs lucking their way through to the semis by avoiding the big guns. But it still might be worth doing. 

I have my doubts though on whether this would make a difference in restoring the final to an event that people from all over the game attend, like they used to. I think people would just have other reasons not to go. I'm also not sure how magic canaibalises it, as img put it. Will more non-finalist superleague fans go, if they're not going to Newcastle to see their own club? 

If the CCF is to be revived, I think it'll be the other bit of IMG's remit - media, marketing, comms etc - that will do it. 

Agree with most of this, but I do think the cannibalisation point is pretty easy to buy into. 

I can easily see some neutrals spending their event cash going to Magic and Bash where they will have a great day and actually guaranteed to see their team. It has the feel of a cup final (without the match being crucial). 

As GJ points out, we are just fishing in the same pool. I'm disappointed that the conclusion is to scrap it rather than try and tap into new markets for the Cup Final. 

[JohnM]

2 hours ago, Jughead said:

I don’t get these arguments. 

Sport is seemingly moving, or attempt to move, from being aligned with betting and betting companies. I can’t see why any credible sport would handicap teams or why they would use a system that is so deeply linked with gambling. 

It’s not feasible in any way, either, which makes it a non-starter, which is great. 

..and horse racing? Is that moving away from being aligned from betting?

[Sitona]

Especially in todays financially constrained times many people will be more aware of spending. A season ticket may be justified, but no spare to spend on other matches that are not included such as cc. I can see away support at league matches also being affected.

[Jughead]

6 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

But they wouldnt host it would be the other way around so that non SL clubs get to host a big team and sell the early rounds of the cup. Bulls beat Leeds not too long ago. Saints going to cumbria looked great for the sport

And again, what happens when the novelty wears off? And as I’ve also said, the random element of a draw is an important factor to preserve without manufacturing it. 

[frank]

On 12/10/2022 at 00:07, Harry Stottle said:

Hi Frank sorry for the late reply, but I recall we have had a similar conversation before about fans, re the match you comment on Leigh v Batley and the lack of support at the game in a "RL Stronghold" area you must be aiming at the fans of the three big SL teams in the area, but that would also apply in the other direction, I was at the game and I would estimate there was about 800 Batley fans that would leave somewhere close to 6,500 Leigh fans, if Leigh did not exist would you expect our close neighbour Wigan would suddenly gain a massive increase in attendance from Leigh, or Warrington and Saints would also benefit, or all 3 to get a share of the 6500 Leigh fans, not a chance I would say there would be a maximum of 300 who would attend any of the others on a permanent basis the others I fear would be lost to the sport. 

Hi Harry, Your right  in regard to the clubs you mention and also your support ( going to those clubs) if Leigh didn't exist. I assume in the other direction you mean clubs in the Championship. Those clubs  don't have very good support and their away following wouldn't amount to much.

Considering what I have just said the Dogs supporters traveled in good numbers for the final.

I stayed up for that game but was unable to tune into  it so settled for the scores coming up on the BBC.

 

[frank]

3 minutes ago, frank said:

Hi Harry, Your right  in regard to the clubs you mention and also your support ( going to those clubs) if Leigh didn't exist. I assume in the other direction you mean clubs in the Championship. Those clubs  don't have very good support and their away following wouldn't amount to much.

Considering what I have just said the Dogs supporters traveled in good numbers for the final.

I stayed up for that game but was unable to tune into  it so settled for the scores coming up on the BBC.

I hope you have a good season in SL and when they distribute the cash, you get your fair share