Maximus Decimus Posted June 15, 2024 Author Posted June 15, 2024 13 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said: On the subject of first memories of Euros, I have vague recollections from pre-1980 when the finals were 4-nations affairs. First, some highlights shown on Football Focus (or maybe On the Ball) of Yugoslavia 1976. And West Germany beating England 3-1 at Wembley in a 1972 quarter-final first leg. Wouldn't have known the status of the fixture at the time. The Germans were in green. Watched it at the house of a relative who had just got a colour TV. Was it a big deal then? I have an impression that it wasn't, but maybe the qualifiers were more high profile? I have vague recollections that the 1992 edition wasn't massive, and the 96 one had plenty of empty seats until the latter stages. A Widnesian in Ireland blog What is the best system for Super League? An honest appraisal
The Hallucinating Goose Posted June 15, 2024 Posted June 15, 2024 (edited) Brilliant goal from Fabian! Incredible footwork! Edited June 15, 2024 by The Hallucinating Goose
The Hallucinating Goose Posted June 15, 2024 Posted June 15, 2024 BLOODY HELL!!! What a start to the game!!!
The Hallucinating Goose Posted June 15, 2024 Posted June 15, 2024 23 seconds, the fast goal in euros history, scored by Albania! You couldn't write it could you?
unapologetic pedant Posted June 15, 2024 Posted June 15, 2024 2 hours ago, Maximus Decimus said: Was it a big deal then? I have an impression that it wasn't, but maybe the qualifiers were more high profile? I have vague recollections that the 1992 edition wasn't massive, and the 96 one had plenty of empty seats until the latter stages. I think in the 70s the status of the Euros vis-a-vis the World Cup was similar to the Commonwealth Games vis-a-vis the Olympic Games. Maybe even lower. Expansion to 8 teams in 1980 was a turning point. That tournament was a big deal for us. England hadn't qualified for anything since Mexico 70. First game v Belgium was a late afternoon kick-off. I was on Thursday detention at school. Teacher let us go early. He also wanted to get home for the game. 23 hours ago, gingerjon said: Apparently neither BBC nor ITV showed Euro 84 live which will be why I don't remember it. Had to check this on the BBC Genome. Apparently the final was shown live. On a Wednesday. Otherwise restricted to highlights. Definitely remember Motty going nuts over Platini's extra-time winner in the semi. Significant that in 1984 no home nations still meant no live coverage. 2
The Masked Poster Posted June 16, 2024 Posted June 16, 2024 (edited) 15 hours ago, Maximus Decimus said: Was it a big deal then? I have an impression that it wasn't, but maybe the qualifiers were more high profile? I have vague recollections that the 1992 edition wasn't massive, and the 96 one had plenty of empty seats until the latter stages. 1992 was a fairly big deal really, although nothing like today. I remember being in a packed pub when England went out to Sweden and particularly the final when Denmark won...but didn't actually qualify and only made it due to the Yugoslavia situation. Re 1996. I don't dispute that there was empty seats somewhere but I remember a few mates grumbling that they couldn't get tickets for the Elland Rd game (which wasn't an England game). But that could have just been them... Edited June 16, 2024 by The Masked Poster
The Masked Poster Posted June 16, 2024 Posted June 16, 2024 12 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said: I think in the 70s the status of the Euros vis-a-vis the World Cup was similar to the Commonwealth Games vis-a-vis the Olympic Games. Maybe even lower. Expansion to 8 teams in 1980 was a turning point. That tournament was a big deal for us. England hadn't qualified for anything since Mexico 70. First game v Belgium was a late afternoon kick-off. I was on Thursday detention at school. Teacher let us go early. He also wanted to get home for the game. Had to check this on the BBC Genome. Apparently the final was shown live. On a Wednesday. Otherwise restricted to highlights. Definitely remember Motty going nuts over Platini's extra-time winner in the semi. Significant that in 1984 no home nations still meant no live coverage. You've stirred up some great memories, thanks.
gingerjon Posted June 16, 2024 Posted June 16, 2024 25 minutes ago, The Masked Poster said: Re 1996. I don't dispute that there was empty seats somewhere but I remember a few mates grumbling that they couldn't get tickets for the Elland Rd game (which wasn't an England game). But that could have just been them... There were empty seats all through the rounds. Mostly because, it appears, blocks had been sold to tour and package companies who didn't then sell them and didn't release them back. It was a moderate deal at the time that became less of one as England did well enough to distract attention from it. 1 Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)
Maximus Decimus Posted June 16, 2024 Author Posted June 16, 2024 39 minutes ago, The Masked Poster said: 1992 was a fairly big deal really, although nothing like today. I remember being in a packed pub when England went out to Sweden and particularly the final when Denmark won...but didn't actually qualify and only made it due to the Yugoslavia situation. Re 1996. I don't dispute that there was empty seats somewhere but I remember a few mates grumbling that they couldn't get tickets for the Elland Rd game (which wasn't an England game). But that could have just been them... I don't personally recall the empty seats, I've just seen them on subsequent highlights. It seems mad considering now you'd be fighting to get a ticket to Georgia vs Slovenia. It's hard to judge how much has changed because football and event culture has got bigger or because the Euros has. As a 12 year old, Euro 96 seemed like a massive deal even at the beginning, and tbh following that there was very little difference between winning a WC and a Euros in my mind. I just dreamed of seeing England win something. However, I can still recall being shocked in 2000 when Belgium didn't sell out their opening game involving the host nation, which suggests it still wasn't up to where it is now. I suspect had we won in 2020 or even win this time, the focus might shift a little and all of a sudden the World Cup will become the new holy grail with the Euros taking a back seat in comparison. A Widnesian in Ireland blog What is the best system for Super League? An honest appraisal
Maximus Decimus Posted June 16, 2024 Author Posted June 16, 2024 23 minutes ago, gingerjon said: There were empty seats all through the rounds. Mostly because, it appears, blocks had been sold to tour and package companies who didn't then sell them and didn't release them back. It was a moderate deal at the time that became less of one as England did well enough to distract attention from it. I've seen the highlight game at Anfield and wondered why didn't my dad take me as there were plenty of seats and it was probably reasonably priced. I'll cut him some slack... A Widnesian in Ireland blog What is the best system for Super League? An honest appraisal
The Masked Poster Posted June 16, 2024 Posted June 16, 2024 4 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said: I don't personally recall the empty seats, I've just seen them on subsequent highlights. It seems mad considering now you'd be fighting to get a ticket to Georgia vs Slovenia. It's hard to judge how much has changed because football and event culture has got bigger or because the Euros has. As a 12 year old, Euro 96 seemed like a massive deal even at the beginning, and tbh following that there was very little difference between winning a WC and a Euros in my mind. I just dreamed of seeing England win something. However, I can still recall being shocked in 2000 when Belgium didn't sell out their opening game involving the host nation, which suggests it still wasn't up to where it is now. I suspect had we won in 2020 or even win this time, the focus might shift a little and all of a sudden the World Cup will become the new holy grail with the Euros taking a back seat in comparison. Just to add, there were plenty of empty seats during Italia 90 too, and I think even during England games.....which seems unimaginable now. I think the "event culture" is a major part of how it is today. For instance, can you imagine a pop star like Rita Ora being seen at an Albania football game back then? The only pop stars into football back then were Rod Stewart and Elton John. (There maybe more, but they were prominent football fans) RL, for a myriad of reasons, just seems unable to get on this particular gravy train.
The Masked Poster Posted June 16, 2024 Posted June 16, 2024 32 minutes ago, gingerjon said: There were empty seats all through the rounds. Mostly because, it appears, blocks had been sold to tour and package companies who didn't then sell them and didn't release them back. It was a moderate deal at the time that became less of one as England did well enough to distract attention from it. I do remember games not being full but just put it down to lack of travelling fans. But by the time England beat Holland 4-1, not many people were noticing!
gingerjon Posted June 16, 2024 Posted June 16, 2024 16 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said: I've seen the highlight game at Anfield and wondered why didn't my dad take me as there were plenty of seats and it was probably reasonably priced. I'll cut him some slack... I remember because a group of us saw the gaps in the opening few games and tried to get tickets but found the matches were sold out - even with empty seats. 1 Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)
Maximus Decimus Posted June 16, 2024 Author Posted June 16, 2024 On 14/06/2024 at 23:35, 17 stone giant said: 6-1 and 6-2 wins against Panama and Iran? Is that more impressive than when we beat Netherlands 4-1 in 1996? Or Croatia 4-2 in Euro 2004. Or Switzerland 3-0 in Euro 2004? Or when we beat Poland 3-0 in 1986 and then Paraguay 3-0 in the last 16? Or you could throw in group stage wins against Germany in 2000, Argentina in 2002. I'm not arguing that Southgate has done badly. I'm saying that in my opinion he isn't deserving of being held in significantly higher esteem than so many previous England managers. I think like Gingerjon you've maybe been seduced by the Southgate spin regarding the culture and togetherness. For me that's just waffle. Every England team (in fact you can include every team too) always says at the time how together they are, how much they love playing for England, etc. It's only years later when they write their books that they're able to give more private thoughts about things such as team selections and tactics. The same is true in every sport. Anyway, I hope England perform at this Euros to a level that enables me to say that I think Southgate has done an amazing job this tournament. Apologies, I had one of those moments where I'd typed out a whole reply only for it to get wiped by turning my phone off. I'm sure you're gutted... As I said, I only refer to specific results as a comparison. 6-1 and 6-2 was in contrast to 0-0 vs Algeria or a late 2-0 win against Trinidad and Tobago. Results in football often rarely tell the story. For instance, the 1-0 wins over Germany in 2000 and Argentina in 2002 were actually pretty poor performances where we got a result. The same is true of a lot of our penalty failures. For every Argentina in 1998 where we played well, there is an instance where we were lucky to get to penalties as we offered nothing all game (2006, 2012). 2018 was fortunate, no doubt about it. We got the draw, we got the luck of the penalties etc it was very much akin to 1990 or 1996. Had it stood alone, Southgate couldn't have got much credit. But it was backed up with a final. This alone is unprecedented and demonstrates the shortness of memory. A very solid QF after that only cements the job he's done historically as an England coach. But it's not even about that for me. The experience has been totally different these last 3 tournaments. Not just because we've done well. 2022 was a lot better than 2002, 2006 or 2012. We lost in the quarters but we're actually the better side for once. Not just struggling to string 2 passes together and hoping it goes to penalties. It used to be a decent performance surrounded by guff. Now it is a bad performance surrounded by decent ones. I'm not saying Southgate is the one but with another manager it was far more likely we'd have had continued abject failure rather than a tournament win. People treat it like he's the problem and he's holding back these great players. History just doesn't support that proposition. As for the culture, ask Gary Neville. He was intimately involved with England throughout this period and was even assistant coach in the disaster of 2016. He raves about the job Southgate has done on this front, as do other ex-England internationals. I'll eagerly await the game tonight, and I'll be honest about how we do. After the Iceland game, I have reservations about the old England making an appearance but we'll see. Even if they do, we've been able to grow into tournaments over the last couple. 1 A Widnesian in Ireland blog What is the best system for Super League? An honest appraisal
Maximus Decimus Posted June 16, 2024 Author Posted June 16, 2024 26 minutes ago, The Masked Poster said: Just to add, there were plenty of empty seats during Italia 90 too, and I think even during England games.....which seems unimaginable now. I think the "event culture" is a major part of how it is today. For instance, can you imagine a pop star like Rita Ora being seen at an Albania football game back then? The only pop stars into football back then were Rod Stewart and Elton John. (There maybe more, but they were prominent football fans) RL, for a myriad of reasons, just seems unable to get on this particular gravy train. RL isn't working class in a trendy working class way, being associated with cool counterculture cities like Liverpool, Manchester and Newcastle. It's proper working class, associated with largely unpopular northern towns. 1 A Widnesian in Ireland blog What is the best system for Super League? An honest appraisal
Maximus Decimus Posted June 16, 2024 Author Posted June 16, 2024 There are lies damn lies and statistics. I've just seen something on Sky, showing how we've only lost 1 Euros game in our last 18 (if you don't include pens) and how England can take encouragement from it. When you consider those games cover 2012 and 2016 you can see the absurdity of it. Interestingly, we've only ever once won our opening game of a Euros, that being a pretty uninspiring 1-0 win in 2020. A Widnesian in Ireland blog What is the best system for Super League? An honest appraisal
gingerjon Posted June 16, 2024 Posted June 16, 2024 1 hour ago, Maximus Decimus said: There are lies damn lies and statistics. I've just seen something on Sky, showing how we've only lost 1 Euros game in our last 18 (if you don't include pens) and how England can take encouragement from it. When you consider those games cover 2012 and 2016 you can see the absurdity of it. Interestingly, we've only ever once won our opening game of a Euros, that being a pretty uninspiring 1-0 win in 2020. It also shows just how much space there is to fill when you have endless, endless talking head programmes about football - especially when they are then mostly filled with people who aren't very good at talking intelligently about football (or assume their audience does not want to hear intelligent talk about football). It does remind that the one very useful thing about the relative success of Southgateism is that we don't hear so much about how the lads would do so much better if only they played with passion, with heart and with pride. 1 Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)
Maximus Decimus Posted June 16, 2024 Author Posted June 16, 2024 Decent game between Netherlands and Poland. Not for the first time this tournament, I'm going to have a rant about why football doesn't have a stop the clock function.... It doesn't seem to be like the PL at the moment, where they have started adding on a lot. For instance, it took nearly two minutes before the game restarted after the final goal. In the end, they added on a mere 5 minutes. A Widnesian in Ireland blog What is the best system for Super League? An honest appraisal
HawkMan Posted June 16, 2024 Posted June 16, 2024 19 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said: Decent game between Netherlands and Poland. Not for the first time this tournament, I'm going to have a rant about why football doesn't have a stop the clock function.... It doesn't seem to be like the PL at the moment, where they have started adding on a lot. For instance, it took nearly two minutes before the game restarted after the final goal. In the end, they added on a mere 5 minutes. That's the difference between competition rules and laws of the game. There's an amount of leeway for difference comps to play with how time is added on. PL and EFL add on a lot more than UEFA do for their comps. As for a stop the clock function, there is one, the clock is on the referee's wrist, it just isn't connected to the off the field stuff.
gingerjon Posted June 16, 2024 Posted June 16, 2024 27 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said: Decent game between Netherlands and Poland. Not for the first time this tournament, I'm going to have a rant about why football doesn't have a stop the clock function.... It doesn't seem to be like the PL at the moment, where they have started adding on a lot. For instance, it took nearly two minutes before the game restarted after the final goal. In the end, they added on a mere 5 minutes. I think the clock will be the next thing to be sorted but, this being football, that could be decades off it actually happening. 1 Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)
Maximus Decimus Posted June 16, 2024 Author Posted June 16, 2024 22 minutes ago, HawkMan said: That's the difference between competition rules and laws of the game. There's an amount of leeway for difference comps to play with how time is added on. PL and EFL add on a lot more than UEFA do for their comps. As for a stop the clock function, there is one, the clock is on the referee's wrist, it just isn't connected to the off the field stuff. If the referee was stopping his clock properly, then there shouldn't be much leeway between divisions at all. It suggests to me, that there is very little standardisation about when referees are stopping the clock. I would argue it makes more sense to take the process of keeping time out of the hands of the referees entirely. Then I don't see why they don't just share this with the public and be transparent about where they are stopping and adding time. I would argue that there was around 5 minutes wasted after the late goal, never mind across the whole half. It would certainly help with fan frustration when it is taking forever for the game to restart and you're chasing a goal. I don't know if it is just because it is so big and they don't feel the need to make obvious changes or so culturally diverse that it is hard to persuade people, but football in many respects is so slow to move with the times. A Widnesian in Ireland blog What is the best system for Super League? An honest appraisal
gingerjon Posted June 16, 2024 Posted June 16, 2024 7 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said: If the referee was stopping his clock properly, then there shouldn't be much leeway between divisions at all. It suggests to me, that there is very little standardisation about when referees are stopping the clock. I would argue it makes more sense to take the process of keeping time out of the hands of the referees entirely. Then I don't see why they don't just share this with the public and be transparent about where they are stopping and adding time. I would argue that there was around 5 minutes wasted after the late goal, never mind across the whole half. It would certainly help with fan frustration when it is taking forever for the game to restart and you're chasing a goal. I don't know if it is just because it is so big and they don't feel the need to make obvious changes or so culturally diverse that it is hard to persuade people, but football in many respects is so slow to move with the times. Quite a lot of football fans are utterly oblivious to how stop/start the game can be so I think there's a certain amount of inadvertent blindness about it. Denmark have just scored. ITV have been able to show several replays and then slo-mo of the reactions and, as far as I can tell, about 90 seconds has passed and the game has not restarted. 1 Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)
HawkMan Posted June 16, 2024 Posted June 16, 2024 Bearing in mind the VAR controversies if we had a separate timekeeper, with the clock in full view of everyone I suspect they'd be more arguing about the difference in how time is added on from one match to the next. Football is such a fluid game with subjective decisions as part of the laws , they'll never be uniformity in how referees manage the game. This generates talking points that are part of its popularity.
Maximus Decimus Posted June 16, 2024 Author Posted June 16, 2024 1 minute ago, HawkMan said: Bearing in mind the VAR controversies if we had a separate timekeeper, with the clock in full view of everyone I suspect they'd be more arguing about the difference in how time is added on from one match to the next. Football is such a fluid game with subjective decisions as part of the laws , they'll never be uniformity in how referees manage the game. This generates talking points that are part of its popularity. I'm more talking about a system very similar to sports like RL. The clock runs unless the referee specifically thinks time is being wasted and calls for the clock to be stopped. In instances where a player is getting treatment, it is genuinely silly that the clock is still running. I genuinely can't think of any actual instances in RL where fans have been annoyed because a referee didn't stop the clock quickly enough. We had to bring in a shot clock for conversions but this is slightly different. I lost all sympathy with the 'talking points' argument when Lampard's goal wasn't given. A Widnesian in Ireland blog What is the best system for Super League? An honest appraisal
17 stone giant Posted June 16, 2024 Posted June 16, 2024 16 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said: I'm more talking about a system very similar to sports like RL. The clock runs unless the referee specifically thinks time is being wasted and calls for the clock to be stopped. In instances where a player is getting treatment, it is genuinely silly that the clock is still running. I agree. I think they need to change it. The last World Cup became ridiculous with 30 minutes of stoppage time in the England v Iran game. Then you get the confusion of being already in stoppage time when a player gets injured and delays things for another 5 minutes. No system is perfect and Hawkman gives a good example of that, but I still think that overall I prefer the idea of a stricter control and transparency of the time keeping. I'd at least like to see it trialled. 1
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