Euro 2024

[graveyard johnny]

glad I decide to watch Columbo instead - at least he always gets the right result at the end 

[Gomersall]

2 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

To say I'm really concerned is an understatement.

All the progress we've made since 2016 is in fear of being lost. Not just because we're playing badly, but the negativity is creeping in amongst the fans again.

My 40 odd years of watching England teams leads me to think that, we're heading for a poor exit in the knockouts.

Why do we never have an England team, successful or not that plays well?

Lineker touched on it at HT for me. We play much faster and aggressively, for want of a better expression, domestically but for some strange reason think we can play a continental style i .e. stroking the ball around the midfield waiting for an opening, internationally. 

[Gomersall]

2 minutes ago, graveyard johnny said:

glad I decide to watch Columbo instead - at least he always gets the right result at the end 

I knew who the murderer was after ten minutes. Columbo, pfft.

[graveyard johnny]

Just now, Gomersall said:

I knew who the murderer was after ten minutes. Columbo, pfft.

just one more thing

[Sidi Fidi Gold]

2 minutes ago, graveyard johnny said:

glad I decide to watch Columbo instead - at least he always gets the right result at the end 

Columbo, I'd sooner watch an England side coached by Dave Bassett ! or even Mike Basset

[Maximus Decimus]

1 minute ago, Gomersall said:

Lineker touched on it at HT for me. We play much faster and aggressively, for want of a better expression, domestically but for some strange reason think we can play a continental style i .e. stroking the ball around the midfield waiting for an opening, internationally. 

Been this way barring the odd decent performance for 30 years.

[Gomersall]

2 minutes ago, Sidi Fidi Gold said:

Columbo, I'd sooner watch an England side coached by Dave Bassett ! or even Mike Basset

Only if he brings Dave Dodds with him.

[Sidi Fidi Gold]

1 minute ago, Gomersall said:

Only if he brings Dave Dodds with him.

And picks Wacko Wacket and Tonka.

[Gomersall]

38 minutes ago, Sidi Fidi Gold said:

And picks Wacko Wacket and Tonka.

That’s a given

[The Future is League]

I did try to watch the England game, but got bored after 10 minutes so turned it off.

[Maximus Decimus]

Can someone tell ITV to stop playing this game in fast-forward its hard to keep up, and also get the message to Spain that they need to stop playing the ball forward so much. Aimlessly passing around the back is top level football. 

[JohnM]

I believe England are unbeaten in 13 group stage matches at the European Championship (W8-D5-L0), since a 2-1 defeat against France in Lisbon at Euro 2004. This is a tournament record.

Southgates record as England manager is second to none.

But OMG, Ingerland is a hard watch. Go one up then retreat and put themselves under pressure. So ########## frustrating to watch.

Odd team selection at times, too. Does Kane fit in with a team with Bellingham , Foden etc. but Kane is almost God at Bayern Munich and is an excellent player.

Finally, credit to Denmark. I think we may have underestimated them.

[RayCee]

Southgate started off well but has gradually fallen as other managers realised he is a Plan A only guy.

Comparing England's historical success requires much more than statistics. Many unique factors that each coach had to deal with could vary. GS has had many factors in his favour but is increasingly failing to deliver anywhere near England's potential. Surely that is the standard he should be judged on. 

His record has benefitted from the modern trend of top sides playing lesser ones. Under his tenure, England has played Lithuania, Malta, Montenegro, Kosovo, San Marino, Andorra, N Macedonia and Bosnia. Has any previous manager had such opposition? He has a fine squad at his disposal but seems to be adept at turning top club players into bang average international ones. 

The FA failed miserably in not replacing GS sometime before the 2024 Euros. There are much better managers out there, Whether they want the England job is another matter of course. 

If England can somehow extract a successful outcome from the Euros, good on them. GS's limited talent as a manager suggests otherwise. If the players can reach the standards they are capable of, they are in with a shot. Unfortunately, their standards are well ahead of the one that leads them. 

[The Hallucinating Goose]

4 hours ago, RayCee said:

Southgate started off well but has gradually fallen as other managers realised he is a Plan A only guy.

Comparing England's historical success requires much more than statistics. Many unique factors that each coach had to deal with could vary. GS has had many factors in his favour but is increasingly failing to deliver anywhere near England's potential. Surely that is the standard he should be judged on. 

His record has benefitted from the modern trend of top sides playing lesser ones. Under his tenure, England has played Lithuania, Malta, Montenegro, Kosovo, San Marino, Andorra, N Macedonia and Bosnia. Has any previous manager had such opposition? He has a fine squad at his disposal but seems to be adept at turning top club players into bang average international ones. 

The FA failed miserably in not replacing GS sometime before the 2024 Euros. There are much better managers out there, Whether they want the England job is another matter of course. 

If England can somehow extract a successful outcome from the Euros, good on them. GS's limited talent as a manager suggests otherwise. If the players can reach the standards they are capable of, they are in with a shot. Unfortunately, their standards are well ahead of the one that leads them. 

I think people forget the only reason he got the job is because he was the England U21s manager and so was already contracted to the FA and it was just easy to appoint him as first team manager. Because when you think, the only job he'd had before the U21s was as Middlesbrough boss where he'd had a shockingly bad tenure and then hadn't even managed, or done anything for that matter, for a few years between Middlesbrough and the U21s.

[Maximus Decimus]

4 hours ago, RayCee said:

Southgate started off well but has gradually fallen as other managers realised he is a Plan A only guy.

Comparing England's historical success requires much more than statistics. Many unique factors that each coach had to deal with could vary. GS has had many factors in his favour but is increasingly failing to deliver anywhere near England's potential. Surely that is the standard he should be judged on. 

His record has benefitted from the modern trend of top sides playing lesser ones. Under his tenure, England has played Lithuania, Malta, Montenegro, Kosovo, San Marino, Andorra, N Macedonia and Bosnia. Has any previous manager had such opposition? He has a fine squad at his disposal but seems to be adept at turning top club players into bang average international ones. 

The FA failed miserably in not replacing GS sometime before the 2024 Euros. There are much better managers out there, Whether they want the England job is another matter of course. 

If England can somehow extract a successful outcome from the Euros, good on them. GS's limited talent as a manager suggests otherwise. If the players can reach the standards they are capable of, they are in with a shot. Unfortunately, their standards are well ahead of the one that leads them. 

I think this is unfair. What was striking about the second half of Sunday and last night is how often you are hearing the accusation that it was like the bad old days. This itself is a reflection of how things haven't been like that.

As for his record, nobody judges it on qualifying or friendlies. Not only was he not the first manager to benefit from playing teams like this, but the teams he's faced in tournaments have certainly been no different in quality since say 2004. 

The reality is that since Alf Ramsey, England haven't strung 2 decent tournaments together until Southgate who managed 3. That's the record he's judged on.

Don't get me wrong, we've never been a great team to watch - the closest we came was 2022 - but we were effective and didn't suffer from an inability to keep the ball like the worst teams of yonderyear. 

Southgate himself said he knows how this ends. Either in Trafalgar Square or in disaster. I suspect heavily we're looking at the latter and it was one tournament too far for him. Sadly, like a boxer who ruins his record by fighting on too long, it'll allow his detractors to pour scorn over his previous record.

What I will say is be careful what you wish for. Before Southgate, we had a string of failed managers from every stripe who just couldn't figure out how to get England to play. I don't know why we suddenly think it'll be any different next time around.

[Maximus Decimus]

8 hours ago, JohnM said:

I believe England are unbeaten in 13 group stage matches at the European Championship (W8-D5-L0), since a 2-1 defeat against France in Lisbon at Euro 2004. This is a tournament record.

Southgates record as England manager is second to none.

But OMG, Ingerland is a hard watch. Go one up then retreat and put themselves under pressure. So ########## frustrating to watch.

Odd team selection at times, too. Does Kane fit in with a team with Bellingham , Foden etc. but Kane is almost God at Bayern Munich and is an excellent player.

Finally, credit to Denmark. I think we may have underestimated them.

I was saying this last night, and tbf it goes back a generation not just recently.

For as bad as England are at times, we have an incredible knack of not actually losing. If you'd have said to me last night the game would be 1-1, I wouldn't automatically have assumed it was terrible. After all, that's the same score from 2020 before extra-time.

In so many of those penalty defeats, we were basically dreadful for long periods but got the game to penalties. I include Italy 2020 in that. 

The outlier is of course Germany 4-1. Other than that, when was the last time we lost by say 2 clear goals in a tournament. 1988?

Edited June 21 by Maximus Decimus

[gingerjon]

26 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

What I will say is be careful what you wish for. Before Southgate, we had a string of failed managers from every stripe who just couldn't figure out how to get England to play. I don't know why we suddenly think it'll be any different next time around.

I don't think people really get just how toxic for the players and staff the environment around the England team gets. What Southgate seemed to manage was making the players ignore most of that and, for a time, the media went along with it.

Now the media are not going along with it - they have their reasons and some will be fair.

But I suspect it will be a long, long time before the team gels again like it did before once Southgate has gone, simply because that protective shield will be gone.

Now, if this was a proper football forum or social media there would already be a dozen replies going, "200 grand a week and we have to be nice to them?" Thereby straight up proving the point.

[tonyXIII]

It has been mentioned, but not built on. The problem is FEAR.

The whole set up is frightened of defeat. This means that the chosen manager is a 'steady Eddie' type. So, his squad is based on not losing, which is why we are serial qualifiers, not serial winners. His team selection is based on stability. His tactics are staid, one-dimensional and boring.

IMO, in order to win, you have to take risks. Play 'unknown' players, play strange patterns. Just shake it up! 

[gingerjon]

Just now, tonyXIII said:

in order to win, you have to take risks. Play 'unknown' players, play strange patterns. Just shake it up! 

Which teams have won tournaments doing that?

[tonyXIII]

Just now, gingerjon said:

Which teams have won tournaments doing that?

I don't follow football closely enough to come up with a quick answer.

Try Pele in '58. Hurst and Peters in '66. Klinsmann in God knows when. Mbappe more recently.

I know they weren't exactly 'unknown', but they were not well-known at the time. I'm trying to find a way to fire things up. Not that I care that much.

[RayCee]

5 hours ago, RayCee said:

Southgate started off well but has gradually fallen as other managers realised he is a Plan A only guy....

GS has had many factors in his favour but is increasingly failing to deliver anywhere near England's potential.

54 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

I think this is unfair. The reality is that since Alf Ramsey, England haven't strung 2 decent tournaments together until Southgate who managed 3. That's the record he's judged on.

If you read what I said...I know his record but my comments are about his drop in success. Coaches should never be judged on what they did some time ago but on what they did recently, are doing now and likely to do moving forward. For that reason, he should have gone before Euro 24. He has some outstanding players at his disposal but messes up trying to best ultilise their talent. He lacks the ability to change things when they aren't working during a match.  

His downward trend. That 2022-23 nations league is the most recent and what an underachievement that was. 

2018	World Cup	4th
2022	World Cup	6th
18-19	Nations L	3rd
20-21	Nations L	9th
22-23	Nations L	15th
2020	Euros	2nd
2024	Euros

 

[gingerjon]

That made me check the Nations League fixtures for 24/25.

Any England manager couldn't ask for a better starting tournament.

League B opponents are Greece, Finland and Ireland.

[Maximus Decimus]

I read an interesting quote from back in the day from an FA suit when talking about England at big tournaments.

"Unrealistic expectations, dawning realisations, bitter recriminations."

Southgate's reign largely hasn't been this, but right now it seems rather prophetic when talking about 2024.

Far from being a dead rubber, the Slovenia game feels like it's make or break for England. We have to see something that gets people positive again or we could see a real spiral.

[Maximus Decimus]

12 minutes ago, RayCee said:

If you read what I said...I know his record but my comments are about his drop in success. Coaches should never be judged on what they did some time ago but on what they did recently, are doing now and likely to do moving forward. For that reason, he should have gone before Euro 24. He has some outstanding players at his disposal but messes up trying to best ultilise their talent. He lacks the ability to change things when they aren't working during a match.  

His downward trend. That 2022-23 nations league is the most recent and what an underachievement that was. 

2018	World Cup	4th
2022	World Cup	6th
18-19	Nations L	3rd
20-21	Nations L	9th
22-23	Nations L	15th
2020	Euros	2nd
2024	Euros

 

This very much depends the stock you hold in the Nations League. Personally, I don't hold much. It's a step up from previous friendlies but still not a fully fledged competition. Don't get me wrong, it's not good but in the past England have been great in tournament qualification and friendlies only to fail miserably when it matters. I'm pretty sure in the build up to 2016 we had some great results like beating Germany in Germany.

Using 2022 as a step down in comparison to 2018 is completely disingenuous IMO. You don't choose when you face the best teams. Facing the current champions and actually outplaying them for large periods, isn't a step backwards because it happened in a Quarter-Final rather than a semi-final.

IMO 2022 performance wise was probably our best overall since 2004. It's close with 2020, but the final performance takes away from that somewhat.

[RayCee]

England has a squad capable of going all the way in Euro 24. Good on them if they can. It would be nice if they showed what they are capable of, regardless of the outcome.

Over here, the week is over and getting close to bedtime so have a nice weekend.