gingerjon

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gingerjon last won the day on November 1

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  1. gingerjon

    The all-new-ish Brexit Thread

    I think it's a very bad deal for the country but about as good as you could expect a Brexit deal given the 'red lines' that the UK put forward and the 'never possible' option that the EU would bend on any of its essential four pillars. There are things which are positive. Gibraltar and the Cyprus bases get treated as if they were the UK. The British citizens in Europe and European citizens here are protected. From what I've read they are fewer demands on British businesses trading in Europe than for any third country and we are still able to transport goods without the third country restrictions (i.e. vehicle limits). There are, to my mind, very positive things in it about maintaining security cooperation and I imagine our GPS will keep working. There are things that are negative. Most of those come from leaving the EU so there isn't a deal which would keep them. We've just lost the right to live and work in 27 other countries with minimal issue, for example. 80% of our economy - services - isn't included at all and is now effectively totally compromised. There are things that are necessary. The insurance backstop for Northern Ireland that keeps the whole UK is one of those. Some people might like to stamp their feet about politicising a border but nobody - nobody - has yet come up with a solution that keeps that border 'soft' and handles divergence between Northern Ireland and Ireland. And there are some things that were always going to be rubbish because the government doesn't care except when it's politically expedient to do so. See fishing as an example. But do bear in mind that a gung-ho no-deal Brexit would be worse even for fishing because whilst they may get the waters they wouldn't have anywhere to sell most of the catch. Most British fish is sold to Europe. So it's an awful deal. In fact, not even a deal. It's a treaty that enables a transition after which a more formal deal may follow. But it's an awful deal that is substantially better than No Deal. People like to squawk Project Fear even now but there really is no guarantee we would have enough medicine or food. We really would be unable to fly out of the country, access GPS or receive anti terrorist information. That's not Project Fear, it's just where we are. And we've got four months to sort out the sort of things that take 585 pages *between friends* to sort out if we want to avoid all that. So. Put a gun against my head and say you have two options: This Deal or No Deal and I will obviously go for this deal. Because I'm obviously not patriotic enough to want to impoverish myself or my country any more than necessary. But it's not the best deal. The best deal is the one we have now. Full membership of the EU but with so many opt-outs it's almost like we're an independent sovereign nation talking in imperial measurements and driving on the other side of the road ...
  2. gingerjon

    The all-new-ish Brexit Thread

    So why include people supporting it with people who aren’t supporting it?
  3. gingerjon

    The all-new-ish Brexit Thread

    But it appears that May’s deal is a betrayal of Brexit?
  4. Did she give lots of money to the Clinton Foundation?
  5. gingerjon

    The all-new-ish Brexit Thread

    Why would we add them together as they utterly contradict each other?
  6. gingerjon

    The all-new-ish Brexit Thread

    Then you are repeating a lie.
  7. gingerjon

    The all-new-ish Brexit Thread

    That is an untruth. You are saying something that is not true. The YouGov figure, excluding don’t knows is 59% in favour of a new vote.
  8. gingerjon

    The all-new-ish Brexit Thread

    That’s better. It is exciting, isn’t it?
  9. gingerjon

    The all-new-ish Brexit Thread

    You’ve lost. Get over it.
  10. gingerjon

    The all-new-ish Brexit Thread

    No one on the Leave side knows how to switch on a printer?
  11. gingerjon

    The all-new-ish Brexit Thread

    It’s okay, if I were a conspiracy nut I’d be showing the widespread collusion between dark Russian money and far right influences combined with fraud that Leave specialised in. What’s that? Some mewling that Remain were meanies too?
  12. gingerjon

    The all-new-ish Brexit Thread

    Just be grateful someone edited the original tweet which referred to Bob Realperson MP.
  13. gingerjon

    The all-new-ish Brexit Thread

    See my earlier point: those people have had plenty of opportunities to do it. And, to head off a reasonable response, we've had two very committed Leave people as Brexit Secretary and a prominent Leaver as Foreign Secretary. The argument seems to be that they've been outflanked by Theresa May. Now, if that's the case - that *Theresa May* managed to outwit them - how do you think they'd have managed against the EU?
  14. gingerjon

    The all-new-ish Brexit Thread

    Then, to take this to a logical conclusion, there's no point worrying that it was May & Co who got this rubbish deal. None of the others would have done any better.
  15. gingerjon

    The all-new-ish Brexit Thread

    Except ... and this is a pretty important bit ... the Leavers have had several opportunities from the morning of the referendum to *even now* to either lead this thing themselves or publish alternatives. They have done neither. The equivalent would be the RFL handing the phone to the RFU and saying, "You negotiate this for us, we can't be bothered."