The Kiwis should be favorites for the Four Nations

[jim_57]

what a fool! shenton is not as good! look at the tries on youtube that someone posted earlier! shenton couldnt do that in sl nevermind nrl!!!! he did nothing in the four nations apart from get p****d all over by folau, inglis, morris twins etc!

what a load of (insert appropriate word here)! You must be Kenny-Dowell's uncle or something, he's good but nowhere near being an elite centre, IMO Shenton is better... to say he was "p****d all over by folau, inglis, morris twins etc!" is laughable considering one of those didn't play a 4 Nations game and two were on the other side of the field. Shenton was superb in defence last year and it was no coincidence that when he went off in the final the floodgates opened. Infact I remember all the 26 points Australia scored against England in the first game, first half were down the side Lee Smith was defending.

You're too far in Australia's pocket mate, you're delusional.

[HappyDave]

I'm not a dreamer I don't think we can win the G4N but I think the Aussies & the NRL lovers really underrate our Backs. It may take England 5-10 years to get up to the fitness & stamina levels of the Kangaroos & Kiwis but I think we're up their skill-wise. I think it could be a Aussie Vs NZ final if they are as good as the Kiwis will be as strong as they may be but I think the games between the full strength NZ squad playing a full strength England squad may be fairly close. I might be possible that the weaken Aussies may only beat us by 10 - 15 points (maybe?).

I just hate how people who drool over the NRL really underrate England even after how well we played in the G4N 2010 & even though the French 'Test' was a non-contest we still showed our class. People on here talked about how Briscoe wasn't a strong enough FB last year it seems we'll have 2 fantastic FBs this year.

[bendyas]

I'm a massive massive fan of the NRL. However, i'm a fan of their structure and their media presence, too.

If we played the same amount of games and had the the same 'ethos' we'd be laughing. Until we do we'll continue to gallantly lose. This does not make the Aussie/Kiwi/Polynesian players better it just makes them the players in the better place at the right time. Good on 'em.

[HappyDave]

The Polynesians/South Pacific Islanders are better than he English players?... Not likely. What percentage of the PNG team (the Kumuls?) play in the NRL? I'd imagine they're an excellent squad but don't seem them being that much better than the French.

As I say I don't think we (England RL) are that far off the Aussies & New Zealanders skills-wise. As I say I just think they're fitter (faster) and have more stamina to play at a higher intensity. However, unfortunately I do think their climate is a factor. Is there anyway our players can get vit D supplimentation?

[roughyedspud]

can you all stop putting the kiwis up there with australia!!!!

they beat australia as often as we do...and england & kiwi games are generally 50/50 games

[TheObserver]

I'm a massive massive fan of the NRL. However, i'm a fan of their structure and their media presence, too.

If we played the same amount of games and had the the same 'ethos' we'd be laughing. Until we do we'll continue to gallantly lose. This does not make the Aussie/Kiwi/Polynesian players better it just makes them the players in the better place at the right time. Good on 'em.

I agree with this sentiment. If England's test stars were limited to playing about 18 regular round SL & CC games for their club, plus finals (rather than the 29 SL & CC games they play), given time to recondition before the test season, give time to train together as a group and some decent warm-up games, you could beat us and the Kiwis with the talent you already have at your disposal. Unfortunately, as it is, England will fall at the final hurdle.

[East Coast Tiger]

Looks likes Matai will be out for at least some of the tournament after his effort yesterday.

[Futtocks]

Kiwis preliminary squad named. Obviously early days, and will be pruned down over the next few weeks, but there's a fair few new names included:

• Alex Glenn, Antonio Winterstein (Brisbane)
• Bryson Goodwin, Ben Roberts (Canterbury)
• Bronson Harrison (Canberra)
• Greg Eastwood (Leeds)
• Kieran Foran, Steve Matai, Tony Williams (Manly)
• Adam Blair, Sika Manu (Melbourne)
• Junior Sa'u, Zeb Taia (Newcastle)
• Krisnan Inu, Fuifui Moimoi (Parramatta)
• Sam McKendry, Frank Pritchard (Penrith)
• Nathan Fien, Jason Nightingale, Jeremy Smith (St George Illawarra)
• Roy Asotasi, Issac Luke, Eddy Pettybourne, Fetuli Talanoa (South Sydney)
• Shaun Kenny-Dowall, Joseph Leilua, Mose Masoe, Frank-Paul Nuuausala, Sam Perrett, Jared Waerea-Hargreaves (Sydney Roosters)
• Lewis Brown, Aaron Heremaia, Lance Hohaia, Kevin Locke, Simon Mannering, Ben Matulino, Russell Packer, Sam Rapira, Jerome Ropati, Ukuma Ta'ai, Manu Vatuvei (New Zealand Warriors)
• Benji Marshall (Wests Tigers)
• Thomas Leuluai (Wigan)

[petero]

what a load of (insert appropriate word here)! You must be Kenny-Dowell's uncle or something, he's good but nowhere near being an elite centre, IMO Shenton is better... to say he was "p****d all over by folau, inglis, morris twins etc!" is laughable considering one of those didn't play a 4 Nations game and two were on the other side of the field. Shenton was superb in defence last year and it was no coincidence that when he went off in the final the floodgates opened. Infact I remember all the 26 points Australia scored against England in the first game, first half were down the side Lee Smith was defending.

You're too far in Australia's pocket mate, you're delusional.

Firstly if I may: Hannibal ; shut up! You are embarrassing.

Jim, SKD would certainly be in the England squad where he elegible and thats a fact?

You are absolutely correct on Shentons defensive efforts in the 2010 4N, he was superb and yes it was only after he left the field that OZ began to make any inroads in the final.

Not many have given Inglis a start, chased him down and made the tackle, once he was in the clear! Let's not forget Shenton did that and did it well.

I absolutely concur with your comment on Lee Smith: never at centre!!

I would not even allow him to carry the boots for the other's as his positional sense is pathetic. Strong on the wing and a pretty impressive finisher too but International class, well diplomatically, I reserve that judgement.

On your last comment; there's nothing at all delusional about praising both the Aussies and the Kiwi's players, they are in general, individually and most certainly collectively, with a few notable exceptions, superior to ours, its possible that even Hannibal would find it difficult to argue that point?

I don't hold with the supermen accolade, but I can recognise better when I see it.

Their entire game is much better structured and more entertaining, the defence over there is so consistently solid and easy matches are almost nil,N/Queensland apart possibly.

Whereas we have at least 7 of the 14 S/L sides that cannot be relied upon to turn up consistently.

[scotthouston2008]

http://www.smh.com.au/photogallery/rugby-l...0904-14v1l.html

SKD in nrl team of the year ahead of inglis, jennings, lyon.............

terrible player.

[bendyas]

So Dugan is a better player than Slater?

[ArmchairRhino]

http://www.smh.com.au/photogallery/rugby-l...0904-14v1l.html

SKD in nrl team of the year ahead of inglis, jennings, lyon.............

terrible player.

good to see the two Poms in there

[petero]

In answer to Bendyas, yes.

Dugan has and is quite outstanding and going off one statistic alone : tackle-breaks, he has completely overshadowed every other this season player in the NRL, not just Billy Slater!

I don't know if you have been watching MSK and the NRL but Dugan really is something special and is second to no other player in Oz, in practically every aspect expected, not simply of a F/B but for that matter any R/L player regardless of position.

[steef]

only been able to see NRL highlights but Dugan seems to be a stand out player for the Raiders every week, looks like a hell of a player.

[bendyas]

In answer to Bendyas, yes.

Dugan has and is quite outstanding and going off one statistic alone : tackle-breaks, he has completely overshadowed every other this season player in the NRL, not just Billy Slater!

I don't know if you have been watching MSK and the NRL but Dugan really is something special and is second to no other player in Oz, in practically every aspect expected, not simply of a F/B but for that matter any R/L player regardless of position.

He's very good but you're getting carried away aren't you.

I'd be surprised if he makes the Aus squad.

[L Bow]

can you all stop putting the kiwis up there with australia!!!!

they beat australia as often as we do...and england & kiwi games are generally 50/50 games

Really? I can't recall our world cup win or tri-nations win in the last 10 years.

[RP London]

my opinion and mine only is that its a proper 3 way this time around..

Australia are always good but perhaps not as strong with the unjuries they have this time around

New Zealand look good but depends if they turn up or not..

England.. when was the last time our pack got dominated? yes we are without Peacock but that is one player, we still have graham and morely leading the line with then a couple of inform (one would hope) players coming in too if its LMS then by god he has to prove himself as he will next year and this may make a big difference, he looks good at quins, how good could he be with the right support around him etc. we will not be dominated IMO

the 3/4 line got us to the final last time around and arguably will be stronger this year becuase they are a year older, we have otpions at fullback, Atkins has looked good this year, bridge too and shenton so there is competition in the centres etc...

Personally england could balls this up like they did last time in aus, mcnamara could ###### it up BUT to right them off now becuase we have seen a good but not sh*t scarey nz team is just daft (but i'm not shocked).. i[ve watched a lot of the NRL this year, and the games are intense but none of theplayers in the NZ team bar Isaac Luke and Benji make me tremble.

[Dave T]

my opinion and mine only is that its a proper 3 way this time around..

Australia are always good but perhaps not as strong with the unjuries they have this time around

New Zealand look good but depends if they turn up or not..

England.. when was the last time our pack got dominated? yes we are without Peacock but that is one player, we still have graham and morely leading the line with then a couple of inform (one would hope) players coming in too if its LMS then by god he has to prove himself as he will next year and this may make a big difference, he looks good at quins, how good could he be with the right support around him etc. we will not be dominated IMO

the 3/4 line got us to the final last time around and arguably will be stronger this year becuase they are a year older, we have otpions at fullback, Atkins has looked good this year, bridge too and shenton so there is competition in the centres etc...

Personally england could balls this up like they did last time in aus, mcnamara could ###### it up BUT to right them off now becuase we have seen a good but not sh*t scarey nz team is just daft (but i'm not shocked).. i[ve watched a lot of the NRL this year, and the games are intense but none of theplayers in the NZ team bar Isaac Luke and Benji make me tremble.

Good post, and I agree with much of this, in terms of the merits of the England team at least, as I have seen very little of the NRL.

As you say, the three-quarters are much better than they previously were in past years, as are the halves, so this can only be a good thing and move us in the right direction. I'd also hope that we have learnt from the WC and last year's 4N (which was very positive let's not forget).

Edited September 7, 2010 by Dave T

[boxhead]

It does not really matter at this level about pack domination.

Packs do not win games on their own.

If a pack sets up a platform and the backs do not have the strike power it does not really matter.

You have to score more points at the end of the day.

[Dave T]

It does not really matter at this level about pack domination.

Packs do not win games on their own.

If a pack sets up a platform and the backs do not have the strike power it does not really matter.

You have to score more points at the end of the day.

I think the point was more that if you play the Aussies or Kiwis and your pack is poor then you will get trampled as their backs will get on top. We shouldn't have that issue really, and if the forward battle is even then it can become a battle of the backs. If that is the case, the Aussies will probably win, but if we can get on top, it makes it difficult for their backs to get a roll on.

I do agree though that in previous years we have been on top at times and not been able to turn ths into points, hopefully this is where our new backline can click.

[boxhead]

I think the point was more that if you play the Aussies or Kiwis and your pack is poor then you will get trampled as their backs will get on top. We shouldn't have that issue really, and if the forward battle is even then it can become a battle of the backs. If that is the case, the Aussies will probably win, but if we can get on top, it makes it difficult for their backs to get a roll on.

I do agree though that in previous years we have been on top at times and not been able to turn ths into points, hopefully this is where our new backline can click.

You hoping its a close game wrestle then Dave.

An open game on nearly summer pitches will be a fast open game where power and pace will decide the contest.

England need a game that pins Oz and NZ down in their quarter with kicks and chases, that has not been the strong suite in recent times.

I think Oz will play an expansive game where after a grind in the forwards they will push their running Second Rowers out wide (Thaiday, Gallen and Watmough perhaps) to run at the England playmakers and punch holes in the line.

The backs to spread it around and isolate English defenders one on one where a player like Hayne or Slater will be hard to stop.

I hope for the games sake its a tight contest and Oz and England are in the Final.

[scotthouston2008]

You hoping its a close game wrestle then Dave.

An open game on nearly summer pitches will be a fast open game where power and pace will decide the contest.

England need a game that pins Oz and NZ down in their quarter with kicks and chases, that has not been the strong suite in recent times.

I think Oz will play an expansive game where after a grind in the forwards they will push their running Second Rowers out wide (Thaiday, Gallen and Watmough perhaps) to run at the England playmakers and punch holes in the line.

The backs to spread it around and isolate English defenders one on one where a player like Hayne or Slater will be hard to stop.

I hope for the games sake its a tight contest and Oz and England are in the Final.

Thaiday and gallen have been awesome this year. Pretty sure watmough isnt in the squad though?

he's awesome but perhaps not had the best season. Big dave taylor is in though and he's a handful!

[boxhead]

Thaiday and gallen have been awesome this year. Pretty sure watmough isnt in the squad though?

he's awesome but perhaps not had the best season. Big dave taylor is in though and he's a handful!

Australian have only named their train on squad from teams not contesting the final 8.

Watmough and Manly are still in the play offs.

[scotthouston2008]

Australian have only named their train on squad from teams not contesting the final 8.

Watmough and Manly are still in the play offs.

ohhh i see. thanks for clearing that up

[jim_57]

Firstly if I may: Hannibal ; shut up! You are embarrassing.

Jim, SKD would certainly be in the England squad where he elegible and thats a fact?

You are absolutely correct on Shentons defensive efforts in the 2010 4N, he was superb and yes it was only after he left the field that OZ began to make any inroads in the final.

Not many have given Inglis a start, chased him down and made the tackle, once he was in the clear! Let's not forget Shenton did that and did it well.

I absolutely concur with your comment on Lee Smith: never at centre!!

I would not even allow him to carry the boots for the other's as his positional sense is pathetic. Strong on the wing and a pretty impressive finisher too but International class, well diplomatically, I reserve that judgement.

On your last comment; there's nothing at all delusional about praising both the Aussies and the Kiwi's players, they are in general, individually and most certainly collectively, with a few notable exceptions, superior to ours, its possible that even Hannibal would find it difficult to argue that point?

I don't hold with the supermen accolade, but I can recognise better when I see it.

Their entire game is much better structured and more entertaining, the defence over there is so consistently solid and easy matches are almost nil,N/Queensland apart possibly.

Whereas we have at least 7 of the 14 S/L sides that cannot be relied upon to turn up consistently.

I agree that SKD would be in the centre spot for England but still maintain that I think Shenton is better, apparently that means I think he's a bad player

I am an Aussie and I'll give praise where it's due, I just don't think massive raps were justified on Kenny-Dowell, he's a finisher and not a great attacking centre like Inglis, Falou or Lyon etc. He still has a lot of development in him, could be a great player in a few years time.

Certainly agree with the rest of what you've said, the NRL's intensity is in a League of it's own and Super League really needs to strive towards that level of competitivness. That doesn't mean all NRL players are better than their English equivalent though IMO, Burgess and Ellis and to an extent Flanagan have proved that. Ellis and Burgess are two of the top five back rowers in the World and Flanagan played more games in half a year at the Tigers then he did in years at Wigan. England just needs to hope a few backs head over there in coming years, certainly plenty of players that could handle it. Some one I'd like to see:

Sam Tomkins

Michael Shenton

Tom Briscoe

Richard Owen

Ben Jones-Bishop

Kyle Eastmond

Always couldn't hurt to get a few more forwards over here. In particular if Perth get back in 2013 I think they should/will go after a couple of Englishmen. Sam & Joel Tomkins would be a publicity boom after the sucess of Englishmen in recent years. Burgess' parents live on the West Coast too from what I've heard so Luke, George, Tom and Sam may all be in the sights of the Reds,

http://www.smh.com.au/photogallery/rugby-l...0904-14v1l.html

SKD in nrl team of the year ahead of inglis, jennings, lyon.............

terrible player.

wow. I said IMO Shenton is better, did I ever claim SKD was a "terrible player"? Comprehension isn't your strong point.