The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[The Parksider]

using a non super league club to weigh facts in your favour against other super league clubs is a bit wrong don't you think?

 

I come across this style of debate a lot where if the point isn't to someones liking they try to pick at the reasoning, find a problem and declare the whole thing null and void.

 

It's Fev who are the "non super league club". Now let's see......

 

Featherstones best crowds in the top division in living memory are 4722....

 

Nope that doesn't change the overall point. Put the big clubs in SL and back them for maximum real growth.

[The Parksider]

Just a note on comparing attendance. Of course bigger the crowd the better but also important is the revenue from that crowd,  Bradford may seem to get more through the turnstiles but how does the paying demographic compare.  Having loads of juniors and families is really good to see but may not help the revenue.  Same for commercial and hospitality - look at the difference between Leeds/Wigan v the likes of Bradford..... mind you the facilities at Leeds/Wigan are much superior and hence helps command higher price.

 

Even if Bradford Wigan and Leeds for example all had same gates and hospitality numbers the revenues would be far greater at Leeds and Wigan.   Something to consider when thinking long term.

 

That's a good point, best illustrated by Castleford who put 6,292 into their stadium last year and announced late on that the stadium was a massive problem as it didn't draw the income streams. Some clubs have said they can break even on 10,000 crowds like Bradford and HKR. Salford and Widnes said they could break even on 8,000 thanks to the stadium facilities.

[GIANTSTRIDES]

1. Clearly you are superficially happy if someone provides some entertainment for you. Be a punter if you want. I'll remain passionate that RL builds on solid foundations.

 

2. We can differ but not on the false premises you offer. I am talking not about what could happen but what is actually happening. A club on low crowds with poor junior development is set to replace a club with many more fans and good junior development because Davey's money pays for the losses of his club to the detriment of their neighbouring club who bring much more resource to Rugby League.

 

Your appalling second false premise is about me taking the game back 20 years. Those were the days it was a free for all and one club dominated. Don't pin that on me. I'm for central planning to prevent such financial domination and always have been.

 

Your linking of "SKY" and "Moneymen" as though it's the same thing is IMHVO convenient nonsense.

 

SKY money evenly shared enables the bigger clubs to become professional which in turn boosts crowds and fans.

 

A Rich mans money enables small clubs to become professional along with the TV money, but as small clubs they don't offer the crowds nor the players to the game.

 

No rich man is pumping money into Saints, Bradford and Hull.....

 

Average crowds over 10,000, top class SL professionals 20

 

Rich men are pumping money into Fev, Fartown and Salford

 

Average crowds 4,000, top class SL professionals 11

 

The proposal I make is simple. Put the biggest clubs with the biggest potential in SL.

 

Rich men at small clubs merely fund losses to the detriment of clubs who create gains.  We do not need them.

 

 

No rich man is pumping money into Saints, Bradford and Hull.....

 

Don't know what this proves, Other than two have money men behind them, the other is Fighting for survival.

 

Two of them play in great modern stadia, the other have a millstone round their neck.

 

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Average crowds over 10,000, top class SL professionals 20

 

Should all go very well this year then

 

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Rich men are pumping money into Fev, Fartown and Salford

 

Average crowds 4,000, top class SL professionals 11

 

 

I wonder if KD has realised that  the last year average  of 6.500, is in your real world actually 4.000, and we have donated the rest to a championship side, And with so few professionals between us , It's a miracle we managed to give Wigan a game at all last night.  

 Deary me.

 

 

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The proposal I make is simple. Put the biggest clubs with the biggest potential in SL.

 

 

All you need now is someone to impliment it,  Is it worth me holding my breath.

 

It may well happen some day which would be good, ( not in my day or yours i think )  Till the people who really run the game make it happen, We have to go with what we have, We are going with what we have, Whether you like it or not,

 

I don't really like this new format, It is still happening.

 

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Rich men at small clubs merely fund losses to the detriment of clubs who create gains. We do not need them.

 

 

Just your opinion, and may be shared by many others, who knows, Reality is we have them, your or my opinion will affect nothing, so once again we are debating a situation that doesn't exist.

 

A while ago you listed what you called the well documented reasons for the fall of the Bulls, I can't be bothered to traul back for the list but it was the Harris thing, the mismanagement, the loss of fans, Odsal etc, All of which made sense to me,

If they don't manage to get things right, will that then be the fault of these unwanted money men.

 

I see you ignored my comment on the number of overseas players Bradford have fielded in their great days, despite the wonderfull acadamy they had. Didn't bother me , I just enjoyed watching them.

 

I have been happy to swap words with you but i feel we are just going in circles, I think you don't really have an argument, you have a Dream , and i can see that in time it may well come about and would be good for the game, Until it does it remains a Dream, I truely wish the Bulls well, But i refuse to blame their troubles on anyone else.

[The Parksider]

I have been happy to swap words with you but i feel we are just going in circles, I think you don't really have an argument, you have a Dream , and i can see that in time it may well come about and would be good for the game, Until it does it remains a Dream, I truely wish the Bulls well, But i refuse to blame their troubles on anyone else.

 

Yes I've been happy too, I enjoy a good debate so thanks. If my dream is just that then it is strange that you "see that in time it may well come about".

 

We shall see how it goes but for me there is already a strong move to ring fencing Superleague. I don't think the CC clubs accepted an opportunity to grow, develop and become SL clubs. Rather they grabbed at a survival lifeline. Equally I think that what limited opportunity is given to CC clubs and relegated SL clubs to rise to the top, will play out quickly until either they make or break.

 

At that point the strongest 12 will probably be set in stone, I think you can be sure the clubs won't allow Wakefield or Bradford to not be in there. Will Huddersfield be there??? Probably as long as it's a 12 club league and not 10.....

[Lobbygobbler]

I come across this style of debate a lot where if the point isn't to someones liking they try to pick at the reasoning, find a problem and declare the whole thing null and void.

It's Fev who are the "non super league club". Now let's see......

Featherstones best crowds in the top division in living memory are 4722....

Nope that doesn't change the overall point. Put the big clubs in SL and back them for maximum real growth.

What was Warringtons best average between 1973 and the start of SL?

[DAZROVER1985]

What was Warringtons best average between 1973 and the start of SL?

and in that period featherstone reached 3 challenge cup finals winning 2 and won the league with a few top 4 finishes, yet with low crowds they best erase them from the record books according to parksider

[GIANTSTRIDES]

Yes I've been happy too, I enjoy a good debate so thanks. If my dream is just that then it is strange that you "see that in time it may well come about".

 

We shall see how it goes but for me there is already a strong move to ring fencing Superleague. I don't think the CC clubs accepted an opportunity to grow, develop and become SL clubs. Rather they grabbed at a survival lifeline. Equally I think that what limited opportunity is given to CC clubs and relegated SL clubs to rise to the top, will play out quickly until either they make or break.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes I've been happy too, I enjoy a good debate so thanks. If my dream is just that then it is strange that you "see that in time it may well come about".

 

 

Nothing strange about it, I have said our end game is probably the same, I want SL to be the best it can be, It will IMO just take time for it to Get enough top clubs.

 

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At that point the strongest 12 will probably be set in stone, I think you can be sure the clubs won't allow Wakefield or Bradford to not be in there. Will Huddersfield be there??? Probably as long as it's a 12 club league and not 10.....

 

 

I don't know who the SL clubs will ultimately be, I Don't really care as long as they are good to watch, are competitive and are finacially sound,  Will Huddersfield be there ?  I honestly don't know, If they meet those standards yes , If not then no they wont.

 

Where we will always disagree i think Is that you believe that the clubs will automatically decide, to divide the money up between the 10 best supported clubs at the turnstiles, I dont agree with that at all, IMO ( Maybe wrongly) They game will become more and more about TV.  That's not to say fans are not needed, or are not important, But you have to agree that SKY's stake in the game is growing.

 

 They are the major income for the game, In years to come it will be the clubs who can deliver who will be the elite, wherever they get their money and players from, and whoever they are.

 

The stronger clubs will be the ones with the extra income from the bigger fan base, and will win most . But whats new.

[Johnoco]

I'm pretty certain Tevita Vaikona was/is a Tongan. Plus even if it was 3 Kiwis (of the apocalypse), that's hardly overwhelming.

[Terry Mullaney]

I come across this style of debate a lot where if the point isn't to someones liking they try to pick at the reasoning, find a problem and declare the whole thing null and void.

It's Fev who are the "non super league club". Now let's see......

Featherstones best crowds in the top division in living memory are 4722....

So what were Leeds averaging at this particular time Parky? It's nearly 20 years since Rovers were in the top flight. How does it have any relevance to what might happen should Rovers join SL sometime in the future or even take the ascendancy in the WMDC area? Edited February 8, 2014 by Terry Mullaney

[Jimmy B]

^{I come across this style of debate a lot where if the point isn't to someones liking they try to pick at the reasoning, find a problem and declare the whole thing null and void.}

 

^{It's Fev who are the "non super league club". Now let's see......}

 

^{Featherstones best crowds in the top division in living memory are 4722....}

 

^{Nope that doesn't change the overall point. Put the big clubs in SL and back them for maximum real growth.}

 

^{Parky, that figure was pre superleague, pre  full time players , pre sky monies,  you, and nobody else have any idea as to what average crowd the Rovers would attract should they ever get into SL.}

^{What average First Division crowd did Wakefield attract immediately prior to there elevation into the so called "elite" professional ranks ?}

^{I'll save you getting your Rothmans out - it was ; -}

^{1994/95    3,438}

^{1993/94    3,822}

^{1992/93    4,505}

^{1991/92    5,022}

^{1991/92    4,848}

 

^{Hardly way out in front of that figure, quoted by you, presumably, as a reason why Rovers could not make it in SL.}

^{How can you assume that the Rovers average gate could not grow as Wakefields have done ?}

^{I repeat you have no idea as what crowd Rovers may attract as a Full time professional outfit - and nobody else has either !}

Edited February 9, 2014 by Jimmy B

[Bob8]

^{Parky, that figure was pre superleague, pre  full time players , pre sky monies,  you, and nobody else have any idea as to what average crowd the Rovers would attract should they ever get into SL.}

^{What average First Division crowd did Wakefield attract immediately prior to there elevation into the so called "elite" professional ranks ?}

^{I'll save you getting your Rothmans out - it was ; -}

^{1994/95    3,438}

^{1993/94    3,822}

^{1992/93    4,505}

^{1991/92    5,022}

^{1991/92    4,848}

 

^{Hardly way out in front of that figure, quoted by you, presumably, as a reason why Rovers could not make it in SL.}

^{How can you assume that the Rovers average gate could not grow as Wakefields have done ?}

^{I repeat you have no idea as what crowd Rovers may attract as a Full time professional outfit - and nobody else has either !}

"We could be almost as big as Wakey" is not that strong an argument in the context of what Parksider is discussing.

[The Parksider]

So what were Leeds averaging at this particular time Parky? It's nearly 20 years since Rovers were in the top flight. How does it have any relevance to what might happen should Rovers join SL sometime in the future or even take the ascendancy in the WMDC area?

 

Terry, the bad news is when Featherstone Rovers were breaking 4,000 competing in the top division Leeds were breaking 12,000.  It's not rocket science is it - the bigger the population to draw from the bigger the crowds can be and actually were.

 

Bet you never wished you asked that question Terry?

[The Parksider]

^{Parky, that figure was pre superleague, pre  full time players , pre sky monies,  you, and nobody else have any idea as to what average crowd the Rovers would attract should they ever get into SL.}

^{What average First Division crowd did Wakefield attract immediately prior to there elevation into the so called "elite" professional ranks ?}

 

They attracted poor crowds for a City club but with a large catchment area have got up to 8,000 as an average and have put a number of 10,000 crowds in Belle Vue including an 11,000 crowd me and Agbrigg were in.

 

So I've seen all the Wakefield support with my own eyes.

 

Rovers are based in a small town so yes we have a really good idea what their crowds will be. Try looking at small town Widnes or Leigh for likely SL crowds. Ponte are seemingly split between Cas and Rovers, the danger being Rovers 18 years in the championship may have depleted that support in Ponte.

 

Rovers crowds for the big cup games were poor as well and prompted a whole thread on here discussing likely Rovers SL crowds. It started with the idea thousands would flock down from Barnsley to watch Fev, but in time we tended to have a concensus of opinion that about 5,000 average would be a very good estimate IF they competed.

 

The trick is to declare that nobody can have any idea what crowds Rovers would get which is ludicrous and just an attempt to shut down a reality you don't like. We know they wont get nobody turning up, and they won't average 10,000 so let's split the difference?

Edited February 9, 2014 by The Parksider

[DAZROVER1985]

Terry, the bad news is when Featherstone Rovers were breaking 4,000 competing in the top division Leeds were breaking 12,000. It's not rocket science is it - the bigger the population to draw from the bigger the crowds can be and actually were.

Bet you never wished you asked that question Terry?

did that stop rovers winning trophies

[The Parksider]

did that stop rovers winning trophies

 

Not at that time. The days when a locally produced team could all stay at the semi pro club.

 

The dice will be loaded against them this time Daz big time.

 

If nahaboo can pump £2,000,000 a year in for 12 years and if Wakefield and Cas collapse you may win the hubcap like Fartown.

[DAZROVER1985]

Not at that time. The days when a locally produced team could all stay at the semi pro club.

The dice will be loaded against them this time Daz big time.

If nahaboo can pump £2,000,000 a year in for 12 years and if Wakefield and Cas collapse you may win the hubcap like Fartown.

only time will tell but for me things are definitely looking a bit more optimistic for the future

[Griff]

only time will tell but for me things are definitely looking a bit more optimistic for the future

 

"A bit" is the key expression.

 

No doubt, rather like the new league structure, we'll need to get Rovers into the top division to agree who's right.

[Griff]

Announced yesterday

 Just one more meeting to go, then.

[Terry Mullaney]

Terry, the bad news is when Featherstone Rovers were breaking 4,000 competing in the top division Leeds were breaking 12,000. It's not rocket science is it - the bigger the population to draw from the bigger the crowds can be and actually were.

Bet you never wished you asked that question Terry?

Well I asked because I didn't know the answer but I've been in crowds as low as 3000 -7000 at Headingley so it hasn't always been rosey has it? In fact if they were almost relegated one year but for Fev beating Oldham. I also remember The iconic Odsal when little more than 300 were in attendance for a first team game. Times and fortunes change.

Let's see what Wakey's crowds are this season now that they aren't doing half price season tickets, forged season tickets and freebies. They've already said the 5300 stadium capacity will be adequate for the first few home games.

Using Rovers' cup tie crowds to assess their league potential is ludicrous when even the big guns can't pull them in for such games. Why should Rovers in SL be deemed to only have the potential to attract a few hundred more than they did 20 ago for top flight rugby when the overall trend since SL evolved suggests much greater? Seems a flawed argument to my mind.

We're back to P&R with a system which the RFL believe will capture the imagination of RL lovers old and new. Let's give it a chance, you might just be surprised at the outcome.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Terry Mullaney

[Griff]

We're back to P&R ......

 

Well, that's a big assumption.

[Terry Mullaney]

Well, that's a big assumption.

As I said though Griff, let's give it a chance.

[The Parksider]

Well I asked because I didn't know the answer but I've been in crowds as low as 3000 -7000 at Headingley so it hasn't always been rosey has it?

 

I suppose you've been in crowds of 1,900 at POR in 1993 and 890 in 2006 too??

 

So it's all relative.

 

My point remains that to maximise the number of fans paying to attend RL games the game needs to showcase where the crowds have the biggest potential, and remove distractions.

 

It's a simple point, just divvying up SKY money every year is not investment, yet we maybe all agree the game needs investment.

[The Parksider]

We're back to P&R with a system which the RFL believe will capture the imagination of RL lovers old and new.

 

"WILL" yes Terry it will be fascinating in the coming weeks the fans response. Get your book of excuses ready mate!!

[Griff]

As I said though Griff, let's give it a chance.

 

Suppose we'll have to.

[DAZROVER1985]

"WILL" yes Terry it will be fascinating in the coming weeks the fans response. Get your book of excuses ready mate!!

why are fev starting the season in super league