Salford Red Devils

[jannerboyuk]

A few things to mention about the 'big four' in the states - there is little overlap in the seasons. That must help. People can only devote so much time to their teams, and lets face it, football is a 9 month season now, all year in world cup/euros seasons. Also, there's only what, 16 games in the NFL (admittedly the other have loads of games). And, out of interest, how many cities have all four?

I can think of - New York, Washington DC, Denver, Philly. Any others?

maybe I'm getting it wrong but surely 3 of the big four all overlap? Ice hockey overlaps with the entire american football season for example?

[RSN]

and RU has had six different winners in the last nine years as well.

This point will be ignored by him.

[keighley]

A few things to mention about the 'big four' in the states - there is little overlap in the seasons. That must help. People can only devote so much time to their teams, and lets face it, football is a 9 month season now, all year in world cup/euros seasons. Also, there's only what, 16 games in the NFL (admittedly the other have loads of games). And, out of interest, how many cities have all four?

 

I can think of - New York,  Washington DC, Denver, Philly. Any others?

 

Boston/new England, Chicago, Detroit, Houston and Toronto ( CFL football).

 

As we speak, the NHL, NBA and NFL are all playing either regular season or playoffs.

 

An average ticket price of the upcoming super bowl is $3,900.

[The Parksider]

Manchester isn't in Salford, nor is Salford in Manchester. 

 

So, it's not really a question of whether 'Manchester' wants a club, as someone asked earlier. if Salford Red Devils are to somehow become the club for the whole conurbation, it needs to reacquaint itself with the citizens of Salford and introduce itself to the citizens of Manchester.

 

Dear me John, we're back to the idea that nobody ever leaves their place of birth and crosses imaginary borders and nobody knows anyone in Halifax who supports Bradford, or anyone in Leigh who supports Wigan.

 

You'd best take note of where fans do come from and travel from to watch games. I always note the addresses or places people are quoted from who descend on Headingley, and they come from all over. Same at castleford where Cas Vegas used to say few of the fans he stood with lived in Castleford. Same at Bulls where they ran a season ticket bus to travel outside of Bradford to sell them. Same at Hunslet where I wasn't born, never lived in and came from a north Leeds council estate that played no Rugby league. 

 

The transition when I travel through the seamless Salford/Manchester conurbation is just that- seamless. Unless you look for the signs you don't know which your in. The amount of anecdotal evidence that people travel to watch winning attractive sides from distances is overwhelming.

 

No side could have been more attractive than the Early seventies Salford, even in those days, and I went with Hunslet, I'm sure that they drew from all over Greater Manchester and beyond. 

[Red John]

Dear me John, we're back to the idea that nobody ever leaves their place of birth and crosses imaginary borders and nobody knows anyone in Halifax who supports Bradford, or anyone in Leigh who supports Wigan.

 

You'd best take note of where fans do come from and travel from to watch games. I always note the addresses or places people are quoted from who descend on Headingley, and they come from all over. Same at castleford where Cas Vegas used to say few of the fans he stood with lived in Castleford. Same at Bulls where they ran a season ticket bus to travel outside of Bradford to sell them. Same at Hunslet where I wasn't born, never lived in and came from a north Leeds council estate that played no Rugby league. 

 

The transition when I travel through the seamless Salford/Manchester conurbation is just that- seamless. Unless you look for the signs you don't know which your in. The amount of anecdotal evidence that people travel to watch winning attractive sides from distances is overwhelming.

 

No side could have been more attractive than the Early seventies Salford, even in those days, and I went with Hunslet, I'm sure that they drew from all over Greater Manchester and beyond. 

Eh? Where did I say that? Can you point me to the part where I said people from Manchester don't travel to watch Salford? I know they do, and I've not had to conduct the same kind of extensive survey you appear to have done to know that because I stand with some of them. What I'm saying is that, for some reason, there isn't much support for RL in the city of Manchester, as evidenced by the fact there has never been a particularly strong amateur game in the city, and there's never been a professional club there, bar the couple of years of Belle Vue Rangers. Despite its location, the city of Manchester is not what you'd call part of the heartlands.

 

What I'm saying is that, for most people in the city of Manchester, the game is off the radar. So, while people will watch a successful team, the job for the club is, as I said, to use that successful team to reacquaint itself with the people of Salford and to introduce itself to the people of Manchester. Not all of them, obviously, but the vast majority of them.

[zorquif]

Boston/new England, Chicago, Detroit, Houston and Toronto ( CFL football).

 

As we speak, the NHL, NBA and NFL are all playing either regular season or playoffs.

 

An average ticket price of the upcoming super bowl is $3,900.

Well colour me wrong!

[DeadShotKeen]

 

What "Bigger" match do you want than .v.Wigan? 

 

Vs London. Leeds. Birmingham. Glasgow.

 

Getting the picture?

 

Wigan is fine. They’re a big Northern club with a near 20K fanbase. Ditto St Helens, who can be to Liverpool what Salford can be to Manchester.

 

But no-one in Manchester is clamouring to see Widnes, Hull FC/KR, Castleford or Wakefield. Trust me. I know the psyche here. They play Liverpool and the big London clubs at soccer. And even the big Euro teams. That’s what we have to compete with and look to mimic. Little RL heartland sides is just not getting it done here (or in Liverpool). You might just as well try selling them junior netball.

[DeadShotKeen]

Manchester isn't in Salford, nor is Salford in Manchester. Although people like to use 'Manchester' as a lazy shorthand for Salford (even though the word is longer) or in an interclub attempt to rile Salford fans (kids, eh? ), they are separate cities, and the distinction is important. For some reason, RL has struggled to gain even a toehold in the city of Manchester. Its only professional club (Belle Vue Rangers: an ill-fated move by the former Broughton Rangers out of Salford and into Manchester back in the 1950s) lasted - what? - two years? It's not had much of an amateur presence over the years either, and only in the last decade or so have clubs started to appear and stay on the scene.

 

I don't think it's just RL though. Ice Hockey and Basketball both made fleeting appearances in the city before returning to their previous position as 'niche sports' and retreating out to the suburbs. Someone asked above why people can't follow more than one sport. Perhaps it's a peculiarly British thing, but people seem not to want to. In order of popularity, we've got football (soccer), then a big patch of daylight, then everyone else. They're all minority sports compared to football, some, like both codes of rugby, appealing mostly to limited markets (the north of England and the upper middle class respectively). In addition, big football clubs like Manchester United (and, increasingly, City) have converted themselves into incredibly efficient machines for sucking money out of the pockets of the hapless victims they refer to as 'fans'. It reduces the ability of other clubs to get a look in - not just from other sports, but smaller professional football clubs in the area - since there's only so much money to go round.

 

In RL, Salford (the club) haven't really helped matters by maintaining a profile so low over the past quarter century that they've almost been two-dimensional. It's nearly 40 years since they won a major trophy, and the dust on the trophy cabinet is so thick you can't write your name in it any more because it all just falls back in. Inevitably, they've started to fade from the minds of the people of Salford too. It's anecdotal - but, nevertheless true - that if you tell someone you're a Salford fan, you get the reply "Oh, I used to go, but..." followed by the reasons why, which, invariably, are because the club is pants.

 

So, it's not really a question of whether 'Manchester' wants a club, as someone asked earlier. if Salford Red Devils are to somehow become the club for the whole conurbation, it needs to reacquaint itself with the citizens of Salford and introduce itself to the citizens of Manchester. Marwan, for all that (some) people like to think about him, seems to know what he's doing, building a competitive team and then getting into the schools in both cities to tell them about it. Whether he'll succeed remains to be seen, but the upsurge in attendances at the start of last season are a promising sign.

 

A good post but I disagree with your idea of Manchester and Salford as bitter rivals, having lived in Manchester for over 20 years. I have mates who follow Salford and Man Utd. Everyone in Salford follows Man Utd.

 

I sense more of a mutual respect or "big brother" (Manchester) vs "little brother" (Salford) kind of mentality either side of the divide.

 

Manchester would take to a strong Salford side in a modernised structure with better geographical reach. I am sure of it.

[keighley]

Dear me John, we're back to the idea that nobody ever leaves their place of birth and crosses imaginary borders and nobody knows anyone in Halifax who supports Bradford, or anyone in Leigh who supports Wigan.

 

You'd best take note of where fans do come from and travel from to watch games. I always note the addresses or places people are quoted from who descend on Headingley, and they come from all over. Same at castleford where Cas Vegas used to say few of the fans he stood with lived in Castleford. Same at Bulls where they ran a season ticket bus to travel outside of Bradford to sell them. Same at Hunslet where I wasn't born, never lived in and came from a north Leeds council estate that played no Rugby league. 

 

The transition when I travel through the seamless Salford/Manchester conurbation is just that- seamless. Unless you look for the signs you don't know which your in. The amount of anecdotal evidence that people travel to watch winning attractive sides from distances is overwhelming.

 

No side could have been more attractive than the Early seventies Salford, even in those days, and I went with Hunslet, I'm sure that they drew from all over Greater Manchester and beyond. 

 

Indeed the potential for Salford is huge. in fact the Manchester/Salford/Stockport conurbation is so huge that, notwithstanding United and City there is room for more than one top level RL team and we used to have that in Salford, Swinton, Broughton and Oldham, all top teams in the past, sometimes at the same time.

 

We should aim for at least two SL strength teams in Manchester. Expansion is not always in new areas, sometimes it is regaining areas lost with the passage of time.

[Red John]

A good post but I disagree with your idea of Manchester and Salford as bitter rivals, having lived in Manchester for over 20 years. I have mates who follow Salford and Man Utd. Everyone in Salford follows Man Utd.

 

I sense more of a mutual respect or "big brother" (Manchester) vs "little brother" (Salford) kind of mentality either side of the divide.

 

Manchester would take to a strong Salford side in a modernised structure with better geographical reach. I am sure of it.

 

I'm not saying they're bitter rivals (although when Salford beat Manchester to get the BBC, Manchester's CEO got a mega pout on about it...heh). I'm sure Mancunians would support a strong Salford. My comments were in response to a number of things, one of which being someone asking whether 'Manchester' wants a strong RL team. The problem here is in this lazy lumping the city of Salford in with the city of Manchester, because Salford does have a RL history (of sorts), whereas Manchester doesn't. So, in Salford you've got a lot of lapsed supporters who would, I believe, return if the team was even moderately successful. In Manchester, you've got fewer. despite the city having a larger population than Salford (and, yes, it will have some because people do migrate, I know). That enjoyment of the sport we probably inherited from our peer groups isn't as strong there, because there's never really been an RL presence in the city. The task, then, is to attract new fans from Manchester and lapsed ones (and some new ones, obviously) from Salford. I think the lapsed fans will be an easier task than the new ones. Just dangle a semi-final at them or something. It just won't happen overnight, and looking at the attendance at a friendly, played in arctic conditions against a club with moderate support - as someone did - is jumping the gun a bit.

[The Parksider]

Eh? Where did I say that? Can you point me to the part where I said people from Manchester don't travel to watch Salford? I know they do, and I've not had to conduct the same kind of extensive survey you appear to have done to know that because I stand with some of them. What I'm saying is that, for some reason, there isn't much support for RL in the city of Manchester, as evidenced by the fact there has never been a particularly strong amateur game in the city, and there's never been a professional club there, bar the couple of years of Belle Vue Rangers. 

 

What I'm saying is that, for most people in the city of Manchester, the game is off the radar. 

 

How is it off the radar when you stand with Mancunians by your own admission. How is Belle Vue Rangers demise in the mid fifties proof people from Manchester will not watch Salford today, when again you stand with some of  them.

 

What support comes from Manchester and what comes from Salford is evidenced probably by the clubs database, but even then people move house so it's not easy to simplify matters when many people from west of the conurbation may have moved east and vice versa. I suppose your right - the further away the audience the harder to get them in.

 

But didn't Sale show the way on this? Didn't they draw from all over?

[Viking Warrior]

Dear me John, we're back to the idea that nobody ever leaves their place of birth and crosses imaginary borders and nobody knows anyone in Halifax who supports Bradford, or anyone in Leigh who supports Wigan.

 

You'd best take note of where fans do come from and travel from to watch games. I always note the addresses or places people are quoted from who descend on Headingley, and they come from all over. Same at castleford where Cas Vegas used to say few of the fans he stood with lived in Castleford. Same at Bulls where they ran a season ticket bus to travel outside of Bradford to sell them. Same at Hunslet where I wasn't born, never lived in and came from a north Leeds council estate that played no Rugby league. 

 

The transition when I travel through the seamless Salford/Manchester conurbation is just that- seamless. Unless you look for the signs you don't know which your in. The amount of anecdotal evidence that people travel to watch winning attractive sides from distances is overwhelming.

 

No side could have been more attractive than the Early seventies Salford, even in those days, and I went with Hunslet, I'm sure that they drew from all over Greater Manchester and beyond. 

 

 

and believe it or not parky in some areas of sthelens there are a lot of widnes fans...............including me lol

[Viking Warrior]

Vs London. Leeds. Birmingham. Glasgow.

 

Getting the picture?

 

Wigan is fine. They’re a big Northern club with a near 20K fanbase. Ditto St Helens, who can be to Liverpool what Salford can be to Manchester.

 

But no-one in Manchester is clamouring to see Widnes, Hull FC/KR, Castleford or Wakefield. Trust me. I know the psyche here. They play Liverpool and the big London clubs at soccer. And even the big Euro teams. That’s what we have to compete with and look to mimic. Little RL heartland sides is just not getting it done here (or in Liverpool). You might just as well try selling them junior netball.

 

 

i know 6 lads who travel from manchester for every widnes home game and not one of them are widnesians

[jannerboyuk]

The thing is that were not talking about 30-40k as a measure of success but 12-15k! Hardly requires an earth shattering historical change

[Red John]

How is it off the radar when you stand with Mancunians by your own admission. How is Belle Vue Rangers demise in the mid fifties proof people from Manchester will not watch Salford today, when again you stand with some of  them.

 

What support comes from Manchester and what comes from Salford is evidenced probably by the clubs database, but even then people move house so it's not easy to simplify matters when many people from west of the conurbation may have moved east and vice versa. I suppose your right - the further away the audience the harder to get them in.

 

But didn't Sale show the way on this? Didn't they draw from all over?

 

Once again, I'm not saying people in Manchester don't watch Salford, but although I know a couple who do, I'm not extrapolating that therefore Mancs are gagging for it. I'm aware of a bloke from Middlesborough who watches Salford too, and I'm not extrapolating from that that the North East is a potential hotbed for the sport either. Good news for the newly named Newcastle club if it is though. The Salford fans I know are mostly Salfordians, which suggests to me that interest in the club and in the sport is predominantly but not exclusively in Salford rather than Manchester. Again, this is not to say that support can't be generated there, just that it will require effort to get new people interested  rather than rekindle interest in lost fans.

 

As for Sale, I'm not sure they're a good example at all. I occasionally pop on their fans forum to see what they say about the stadium and the like. They seem to be of the opinion that the move from Stockport to Salford has lost them support from their heartlands in Cheshire, and they've picked up little, if any, support from the locals. Again, it's all about culture: Salford doesn't really have much of a history of RU. Bar the odd major game here and there, their attendances are tanking too. Week-in, week-out the official attendance figure is met with mockery bordering on incredulity on there. Judging by what contributors who attend Sale matches are saying, it seems that, as a rule of thumb, the actual attendance is usually somewhere between two thirds and three quarters of the official one.

[Red John]

The thing is that were not talking about 30-40k as a measure of success but 12-15k! Hardly requires an earth shattering historical change

 

It does though. The stadium capacity is only 12,000, so they'd have to shatter the earth to build some new bits.

[The Parksider]

Vs London. Leeds. Birmingham. Glasgow.

 

Getting the picture?

 

Wigan is fine. They’re a big Northern club with a near 20K fanbase. Ditto St Helens, 

 

But no-one in Manchester is clamouring to see Widnes, Hull FC/KR, Castleford or Wakefield. Trust me.

 

I'm extremely sympathetic to your idea clubs should look to merge in a couple of circumstances to create potentially bigger clubs, I get that picture.

 

But where you get Glasgow or Birmingham from I dunno. The free gangway opened up the game for people to invest in, to watch, to play in completely new areas and that has now played itself out.

 

We are where we are and we can only make the best of what we have left and that means getting more clubs up to the level of those at the top and thereby making the salary cap do it's job.

 

Strong clubs can come from Salfords resurrection, Hulls amalgamation and something happening in Calder.

 

A lot more realisable than Glasgow or Birmingham and BTW the reality is  London often brings Salford their lowest crowd each season never mind a high one.

[keighley]

I'm extremely sympathetic to your idea clubs should look to merge in a couple of circumstances to create potentially bigger clubs, I get that picture.

 

But where you get Glasgow or Birmingham from I dunno. The free gangway opened up the game for people to invest in, to watch, to play in completely new areas and that has now played itself out.

 

We are where we are and we can only make the best of what we have left and that means getting more clubs up to the level of those at the top and thereby making the salary cap do it's job.

 

Strong clubs can come from Salfords resurrection, Hulls amalgamation and something happening in Calder.

 

A lot more realisable than Glasgow or Birmingham and BTW the reality is  London often brings Salford their lowest crowd each season never mind a high one.

 

 

I'm extremely sympathetic to your idea clubs should look to merge in a couple of circumstances to create potentially bigger clubs, I get that picture.

 

But where you get Glasgow or Birmingham from I dunno. The free gangway opened up the game for people to invest in, to watch, to play in completely new areas and that has now played itself out.

 

We are where we are and we can only make the best of what we have left and that means getting more clubs up to the level of those at the top and thereby making the salary cap do it's job.

 

Strong clubs can come from Salfords resurrection, Hulls amalgamation and something happening in Calder.

 

A lot more realisable than Glasgow or Birmingham and BTW the reality is  London often brings Salford their lowest crowd each season never mind a high one.

 

And Leeds joining Bradford. Give it a rest.

 

Much better to have FC and KR kick on to 10,000 each than have 15,000 for one joined up club. Same with Cas and Trinity. push them on up to 9 to 10,000 each rather than one Frankinsteinian mish mash pulling in 12,000 if you are lucky.

 

That's how to maximise what we have, not reduce our footprint and club numbers chasing some impossible dream.

[The Parksider]

Once again, I'm not saying people in Manchester don't watch Salford, but although I know a couple who do, I'm not extrapolating that therefore Mancs are gagging for it. I'm aware of a bloke from Middlesborough who watches Salford too, and I'm not extrapolating from that that the North East is a potential hotbed for the sport either. Good news for the newly named Newcastle club if it is though. The Salford fans I know are mostly Salfordians, which suggests to me that interest in the club and in the sport is predominantly but not exclusively in Salford rather than Manchester. Again, this is not to say that support can't be generated there, just that it will require effort to get new people interested  rather than rekindle interest in lost fans.

 

As for Sale, I'm not sure they're a good example at all. I occasionally pop on their fans forum to see what they say about the stadium and the like. They seem to be of the opinion that the move from Stockport to Salford has lost them support from their heartlands in Cheshire, and they've picked up little, if any, support from the locals. Again, it's all about culture: Salford doesn't really have much of a history of RU. Bar the odd major game here and there, their attendances are tanking too. Week-in, week-out the official attendance figure is met with mockery bordering on incredulity on there. Judging by what contributors who attend Sale matches are saying, it seems that, as a rule of thumb, the actual attendance is usually somewhere between two thirds and three quarters of the official one.

 

Very interesting  post indeed thanks.

 

If Salford start winning more than they lose and challenge for trophies I suppose the beauty of having 500,000 Mancunians on the doorstep is that "a number of them" can add to returning and new Salford fans. But it doesn't stop there, Swinton. Oldham and Rochdale are a car ride away and are RL areas by tradition then you don't have to look far for other big centers of population (Trafford/Ashton).

 

There's quite some audience to go at there. It's not like driving out of Fev and running into Cas and Wakefield in minutes, or playing out of Hull and having half the city not interested in you. I am quite optimistic Salford are going to make it big and I hope that gets the junior game going.

[RabbitRhinoovOZ]

I'm not saying they're bitter rivals (although when Salford beat Manchester to get the BBC, Manchester's CEO got a mega pout on about it...heh). I'm sure Mancunians would support a strong Salford. My comments were in response to a number of things, one of which being someone asking whether 'Manchester' wants a strong RL team. The problem here is in this lazy lumping the city of Salford in with the city of Manchester, because Salford does have a RL history (of sorts), whereas Manchester doesn't. So, in Salford you've got a lot of lapsed supporters who would, I believe, return if the team was even moderately successful. In Manchester, you've got fewer. despite the city having a larger population than Salford (and, yes, it will have some because people do migrate, I know). That enjoyment of the sport we probably inherited from our peer groups isn't as strong there, because there's never really been an RL presence in the city. The task, then, is to attract new fans from Manchester and lapsed ones (and some new ones, obviously) from Salford. I think the lapsed fans will be an easier task than the new ones. Just dangle a semi-final at them or something. It just won't happen overnight, and looking at the attendance at a friendly, played in arctic conditions against a club with moderate support - as someone did - is jumping the gun a bit.

Red, I took exception to the low crowd only based on the fact the money was going to a very decent cause & in my way of thinking shorely people could brave some terrible weather for 1.5hrs to help out a family who lost there bread winner/ Father & Husband for ever.

Any way I wish Salford well the game as a whole will be better for having a strong Salford side.

[D Collins]

Support two sports RabbitRhinoofOZ? This is England People can't afford that!

England has always been lopsided towards football...and one reason is it owns all the major cities. RU (Northampton, Bath) and RL (St Helens, Wigan) are big in small towns.

With the exception of Leeds Rhinos, football has all the other cities to itself. Both Rugby codes are rooted in small towns and they've been stuck there since.

[DeadShotKeen]

I'm extremely sympathetic to your idea clubs should look to merge in a couple of circumstances to create potentially bigger clubs, I get that picture.

 

But where you get Glasgow or Birmingham from I dunno. The free gangway opened up the game for people to invest in, to watch, to play in completely new areas and that has now played itself out.

 

We are where we are and we can only make the best of what we have left and that means getting more clubs up to the level of those at the top and thereby making the salary cap do it's job.

 

Strong clubs can come from Salfords resurrection, Hulls amalgamation and something happening in Calder.

 

A lot more realisable than Glasgow or Birmingham and BTW the reality is  London often brings Salford their lowest crowd each season never mind a high one.

 

I accept that taking RL to Glasgow and Birmingham is not an easy task and requires a great deal of money and effort.

 

However, that it is 2015 and we don't even have a strategy or widespread desire to take the game to such places is nothing short of a disgrace and confirmation that our administration is not fit for purpose.

[D Collins]

Is the admin not fit for purpose? Or do they just lack the necessary funds to promote RL in major cities?

I don't know about the qualities of those running RL, but without the funds it's surely a very difficult task.

[D Collins]

Brian Barwick is a top executive...if he can't do enough to promote the game then I don't know who can

[DeadShotKeen]

Much better to have FC and KR kick on to 10,000 each than have 15,000 for one joined up club. Same with Cas and Trinity. push them on up to 9 to 10,000 each rather than one Frankinsteinian mish mash pulling in 12,000 if you are lucky.

 

That's how to maximise what we have, not reduce our footprint and club numbers chasing some impossible dream.

 

2 points:

 

(1) That hasn't yet happened in the modern era and its a moot point as to whether it could. You'd have to estimate the combined support for the 2 sides at about 18K if you look at recent figures (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

(2) Even if you did achieve those figures those clubs would be absolutely maxing their support bases yet still reliant on commercial and benefactor investment to genuinely compete with the likes of Leeds, Wigan, Saints and Bradford with their 15K+ fanbases.

 

A combined team with 15K core support would be "go forward" in every regard. Who's to say they couldn't bust through 20K in time? They would be hugely attractive to investors and commercial sponsorship from all over the UK. Furthermore, they would play in bigger games and be bigger draws than FC and KR could individually ever hope to achieve. They would help the sport as a whole grow. All FC and KR can do is keep it on a level at best.

 

Small teams at elite level are a hindrance to growth. Where they exist in close proximity an opportunity for the sport to push on is wasted by persevering with them.