Relegation

[The Parksider]

You're rather missing the point that Bradford lost Carvell, Scruton and Winterstein [3 props]and Sammutt pretty much before the season started................we obviously still lost a fair number of SL players to other clubs at the season's end. We're more than happy to retain such as Lee Gaskell , Danny Addy, Matty Blythe, Tom Olbison, Jay Pitts and Dale Ferguson and to bring in one or two other decent players. With the lower cap, obviously some concessions to reality have to be made - so yes, I'm happy about our squad in our division, but clearly it would need to be bolstered to survive in SL as only a fool would fail to recognise.

 

Didn't you lose Whitehead, Bateman and Kopzac in the troubles too? At various stages what was a mid-table SL squad has been variously decimated. Players jumping ship to avoid ending up in the Championship.

 

What your left with are capable of hammering all the part timers, much as leigh will, but as you say they would need strengthening in a much stronger SL.

 

The SL clubs will get chance to see Leigh and Bradford off before they can do this!!

[Krytensmate]

More and more people are coming to the realisation that the imbalance may not deliver P & R, I do not detect anyone who would castigate Leigh if they won promotion, but I'd guess many would prefer the bigger club to get back to SL for the good of the game.

I'm sure many would , specifically Bradford and Leeds fans it would seem , and I'm sure many just want to see whoever is the best team be successful , because they are sports fans

[The Parksider]

We obviously wouldn't deserve it , so tough , that's sport , you regroup , improve and try again just like every other club in every other sport all over the world

 

Not true here. In soccer and even RU they have P & R

 

And again I concour , I admit I don't know if and how it will work , and what ' working ' will actually be.

 

P & R working is essentially clubs actually being promoted and relegated. Simple isn't it?

 

The only thing that fits the bill with your attitude to this is you may favour a nice run of several seasons in which every time you go to LSV your club wins and run up scores of tries in doing so.

 

That may be your "bag" it is certainly to the liking of many Featherstone Rovers fans who "endured" season after season of serial winning at home with many big scores, all declaring "we don't want Superleague".

 

Sounds like this is what you want. 

[Krytensmate]

It certainly would guarantee P & R actually happened each year and promoted clubs could still keep 80% of their current squad and look to make 20% improvements with the extra cap spend.

 

RFL apparently don't want it because they believe blocking any chance of Promotion and therefore relegation until the very last match will make every match, every minute and every second count such that the whole of the game will be "enthused" and crowds will rocket.

 

But as we see at Bradford and London crowds are not enthused, as we see in SL crowds are little changed this year on last. Amongst championship part timers crowds are a couple of hundred up which I fear will go back into decline if the SL clubs sweep the pretenders away.

 

Leigh are a different matter, they and the town has Superleague fever and it could be the case if they can pip Bradford in the return they could maybe go through the season unbeaten and average over 5,000 fans.

 

And not get promoted.

 

I'm told this will be the system "working" so the duff excuses for it are already being rolled out oddly led by a Leigh fan

Why ' oddly ' ? , again I was part of the Leigh club last time , and was under no illusions of what was going to happen , we weren't as good as the team that got relegated , we didn't prepare properly and with 2 clubs guaranteed to come down it was never going to be a long stay

This time we will have to prove ourselves better and that will give us the best chance of staying in SL , how long that ' tenure ' will be for will be up to ourselves and whoever wants to displace us , ie whoever ' deserves ' it on the pitch , it's called sport

[Krytensmate]

Didn't you lose Whitehead, Bateman and Kopzac in the troubles too? At various stages what was a mid-table SL squad has been variously decimated. Players jumping ship to avoid ending up in the Championship.

 

What your left with are capable of hammering all the part timers, much as leigh will, but as you say they would need strengthening in a much stronger SL.

 

The SL clubs will get chance to see Leigh and Bradford off before they can do this!!

Didn't they lose players due to the other SL clubs nicking most of their central funds ? , clubs you now want protecting ?

[Krytensmate]

Not true here. In soccer and even RU they have P & R

 

So the club that finishes bottom of the NRL doesn't regroup and try harder the following year to improve their position ? , so all the NFL clubs aren't going to try to win the Super Bowl next year except the Patriots ?

Irrelevant of what system is in place every team/club is looking to improve its position year on year , or what's the point ?

[Krytensmate]

P & R working is essentially clubs actually being promoted and relegated. Simple isn't it?

 

The only thing that fits the bill with your attitude to this is you may favour a nice run of several seasons in which every time you go to LSV your club wins and run up scores of tries in doing so.

 

That may be your "bag" it is certainly to the liking of many Featherstone Rovers fans who "endured" season after season of serial winning at home with many big scores, all declaring "we don't want Superleague".

 

Sounds like this is what you want.

The new structure isn't just P and R , it is a whole sport structure , even now fans ( and no doubt coaches and owners ) of ' big ' clubs are already looking at league tables thinking the top 4 in SL could be out of reach , which should start to intensify those clubs matches

Isn't that part of the purpose ?

[Dave T]

One thing confusing me a touch is the amount of times in the last 12 months we have been told that we have an 8 team SL, yet we are staging 6 games at weekends. How is that working?

[Krytensmate]

One thing confusing me a touch is the amount of times in the last 12 months we have been told that we have an 8 team SL, yet we are staging 6 games at weekends. How is that working?

That's because those in the ' know ' already know who is finishing in the bottom 4 , it's all in the tea leaves , or the stars , or the cards , or the bones , or in Nigel's little black book

Won't it be funny if Wire start slipping up a bit ? , or Wigan , or Catalans ? , unfortunately Leeds have started quite well

[Dave T]

Won't it be funny if Wire start slipping up a bit ?

erm.... no!

[Krytensmate]

erm.... no!

For the good of the game Dave , for the good of the game

[Dave T]

For the good of the game Dave , for the good of the game

ill take the Wigan option then thanks!

[The Parksider]

Irrelevant of what system is in place every team/club is looking to improve its position year on year , or what's the point ?

 

What's the point in improving your position beyond top dogs in your division if that means you'd get promoted and then probably smashed every week.

 

Bradford Bulls when they were winning every week averaged 15,000, when they were losing every week they averaged 6.000.

 

Doesn't take a genius to work out that fans want to see their sides win, and that many of them don't want to bother if their sides lose too many games. IIRC there was a period you spoke about when you didn't want to bother. No problem with that, you pays your money and you take your choice.

 

What's the point in just coming top of the Championship every year and not improving your position?

 

Ask the Fev fans who were down to near 1,000 when they were serial losers at one point but winning every year in the same position every year saw crowds grow to over 2,000 and stay there. They clearly saw the point.

 

Which it would seem you can see, now your club has knocked Rovers off that perch.

 

Some Leigh fans may want promotion for the experience, the trips to new grounds, a chance to be a Superleague side for as long as they can, other Leigh fans may want to be a big fish in a small pond as many Rovers fans have enjoyed for some years now.

 

Winning is the point, and whilst your board may be ambitious, you may not be for what seems to be clear and obvious reasons.

 

That's fine, but your protestations in which you variously tell me if nobody is promoted then the system will have worked, and this is somehow what the fans want, and that Leigh are following the Brian Clough model, and the gobbledigook in post #82 have become so untrue and incoherent then I can only deduce a few years at the top of the Championship threatening to be a Superleague club may well suit you down to the ground and there's nowt wrong with that.

 

But such an ulterior motive doesn't make for a balanced and honest debate. Again have the last word as we don't want to run up, what was it? 250 posts on this?

[The Parksider]

One thing confusing me a touch is the amount of times in the last 12 months we have been told that we have an 8 team SL, yet we are staging 6 games at weekends. How is that working?

 

Come on Dave. Just wait and see whilst we get to the last third of the season and "before your very eyes" I will magic up the eight club Superleague. 

[Krytensmate]

What's the point in improving your position beyond top dogs in your division if that means you'd get promoted and then probably smashed every week.

 

Probably again , was this the ' leaves ' or the ' bones ' ?

But yes ' probably ' whoever gets promoted , if anybody does , will lose more games than they win , but those they will win will ' feel ' worth it in the short term , eventually like most things that become the ' norm ' that will become boring and fans might well be turned off by that , just like half of SL have had for the last 6 years , but it is sport , it is the unknown that excites

What are you scared of ??

[Krytensmate]

 

Ask the Fev fans who were down to near 1,000 when they were serial losers at one point but winning every year in the same position every year saw crowds grow to over 2,000 and stay there. They clearly saw the point.

 ?

I'm sure they did , and no doubt they'll see the ' point ' of the new structure if they end up entertaining Cas or Wakey come the end of the season even if by that time the game is a ' dead rubber ' , and if they do , no doubt they'll be looking at how they can replicate it in 2016 and it not be a ' dead rubber '

[Krytensmate]

Doesn't take a genius to work out that fans want to see their sides win, and that many of them don't want to bother if their sides lose too many games. IIRC there was a period you spoke about when you didn't want to bother. No problem with that, you pays your money and you take your choice.

Again have the last word as we don't want to run up, what was it? 250 posts on this?

I didn't stop attending because we were losing

I Stopped attending league games partly because I ' felt ' iit became boring and also that at that time the clubs administration didn't seem to understand what it needed to do to progress within a licence structure IMO albeit under severe financial restrictions

Why don't we want to run up 250 posts , it's a discussion forum isn't it ?

[scotchy]

Well, I didn't expect the thread to descend into another P&R moan-a-thon.

So many people knocking the new system based on absolutely nothing. Let's just give it a chance yeah?

The new system won't work because it has many obvious flaws. It didn't work when tried elsewhere. Are we supposed to pretend it will work and then pretend to be surprised when it doesn't?

So many people seem to think throwing their hands in the air and saying screw it let's see what happens, like it's a good argument or something. Odd

[sweaty craiq]

Two FT tens properly funded is what must be reached in 4 years, what we have could be a great start to achieving this - we will have a clearer picture at the end of the season if the mid 8's promote a team it will be a bonus

[Dave T]

Come on Dave. Just wait and see whilst we get to the last third of the season and "before your very eyes" I will magic up the eight club Superleague. 

Why do we need to do that? Why would we ignore the other 3/4 of the season?

 

Super League is being played now, we are 4 rounds in, Hudds are 11th and Hull KR are 12th.

 

I accept the point that if this goes badly we could see the same teams in that bottom four, yet never be relegated (that is the extreme worst case - unlikely to happen, but I accept it may) - and then fans of those teams could see themselves as poor relations and their crowds go down, but tbh, in any case, even in a licensing system if we had the same four teams finishing 9th-12th every year and missing the playoffs their crowds would drop and fans would disengage with the club anyway - as you rightly point out, success is important for many fans.

 

Ultimately my point though is that it is a 12 team SL - any of the 12 could be crowned Super League Champions in 2015. That is a 12 team league no matter how it is positioned.

[Dave T]

The new system won't work because it has many obvious flaws. It didn't work when tried elsewhere. Are we supposed to pretend it will work and then pretend to be surprised when it doesn't?

So many people seem to think throwing their hands in the air and saying screw it let's see what happens, like it's a good argument or something. Odd

Where has it been tried elsewhere scotchy?

[Krytensmate]

Why do we need to do that? Why would we ignore the other 3/4 of the season?

 

Super League is being played now, we are 4 rounds in, Hudds are 11th and Hull KR are 12th.

 

I accept the point that if this goes badly we could see the same teams in that bottom four, yet never be relegated (that is the extreme worst case - unlikely to happen, but I accept it may) - and then fans of those teams could see themselves as poor relations and their crowds go down, but tbh, in any case, even in a licensing system if we had the same four teams finishing 9th-12th every year and missing the playoffs their crowds would drop and fans would disengage with the club anyway - as you rightly point out, success is important for many fans.

 

Ultimately my point though is that it is a 12 team SL - any of the 12 could be crowned Super League Champions in 2015. That is a 12 team league no matter how it is positioned.

That was the point of reducing SL , was it not ? , to intensify the competition , otherwise why even reduce it , we could have still had this system with 14

 

And if that ' intensity ' means SL improves and nobody gets promoted , then isnt that what all ' supposed ' supporters of the ' game ' actually want , or so they keep saying ?

[sweaty craiq]

We talk of mid 8's but the intensity will be greater in the elite 8's with a 4 team play off

[Krytensmate]

We talk of mid 8's but the intensity will be greater in the elite 8's with a 4 team play off

Yes , no second chances

[scotchy]

Where has it been tried elsewhere scotchy?

Switzerland. What's frustrating is they dumped it stating pretty much the exact issues people have with it. That it created a two tier top league (or exacerbated that problem) and interest rapidly waned in the bottom two 8's.