Relegation

[Saint Toppy]

Their is loads in the championship that could step up to SL. How the hell that Gaskell at bulls is not playing SL I will never know. He's way too good for the championship. Their is loads more but he's the one that should definately not be playing champ rugby.

Hmmm not convinced. Gaskell had a shot at SL and had too many failings for Saints to take a gamble and offer him a new contract. He could well be one of those players who stands out at Championship level but doesn't quite have what it takes at SL level, time will tell.

In the championship a half back invariably get more time & space and can show off their skills. At SL level they get closed down far more quickly and unfortunately when put under this kind of pressure Gaskell far too often came up with errors time & again, either losing the ball in the collision or panicking and throwing a wild pass.

A few years in the championship could be just what he needs to learn some composure and let his body fully develop to the rigours of the game. I hope he does develop and one day comes back into SL, but at the moment he's just not ready. 

[Krytensmate]

 

Leigh clearly have players like Barlow and Brierley who were fancied by Leeds, and the excellent Ridyard who could also go on to try to keep the ship steady for Leigh in SL. 

 

For me you can't assemble a competitive Superleague side outside Superleague. Superleague's spending power (and only a contractual stand saw Leigh keep Brierley and Barlow) will take all the best players many of whom they will sit on the bench or send out  on DR.

 

One of the positives of the DR system for lower tier clubs is that some players get to play regularly in a good environment rather than just being a ' bit part ' player in SL and if the opportunity to become full time at that club arises they take it , Spencer and Emmitt at Leigh have both followed that path

For other players they again prefer to be playing regular than stuck on the bench or DR ed around the country , Liam Kay and as you mention Brierly,Barlow,Haggerty and others , if they do become genuine SL stars then they might well move on , but for a club like Leigh ( or any other able to work full time ) it makes them more attractive than ' bench warmers '

So I do believe it is possible to put together a team capable of competing in the lower part of SL actually outside SL

[Dave T]

Hmmm not convinced. Gaskell had a shot at SL and had too many failings for Saints to take a gamble and offer him a new contract. He could well be one of those players who stands out at Championship level but doesn't quite have what it takes at SL level, time will tell.

In the championship a half back invariably get more time & space and can show off their skills. At SL level they get closed down far more quickly and unfortunately when put under this kind of pressure Gaskell far too often came up with errors time & again, either losing the ball in the collision or panicking and throwing a wild pass.

A few years in the championship could be just what he needs to learn some composure and let his body fully develop to the rigours of the game. I hope he does develop and one day comes back into SL, but at the moment he's just not ready. 

So he may not be good enough for St Helens, who are current Champions, but what about other clubs?

 

If we look at the 6's at the other clubs we have:

 

Saints - Burns

Wigan - Williams

Wire - O'Brien

Leeds - McGuire/Sinfield

Hudds - Brough

Catalan - Carney

Widnes - Brown

Cas - Roberts

Hull KR - Campese

Salford - Chase

Wakefield - Miller

Hull - Pryce

 

That is the standard for a Super League 6. If he isn't better than them (plus the replacements like Ratchford, Bridge etc) then he isn't a Super League standard 6.

[Krytensmate]

Hmmm not convinced. Gaskell had a shot at SL and had too many failings for Saints to take a gamble and offer him a new contract. He could well be one of those players who stands out at Championship level but doesn't quite have what it takes at SL level, time will tell.

In the championship a half back invariably get more time & space and can show off their skills. At SL level they get closed down far more quickly and unfortunately when put under this kind of pressure Gaskell far too often came up with errors time & again, either losing the ball in the collision or panicking and throwing a wild pass.

A few years in the championship could be just what he needs to learn some composure and let his body fully develop to the rigours of the game. I hope he does develop and one day comes back into SL, but at the moment he's just not ready.

Jamie Ellis developed well at Leigh , when interviewed on signing he caused much mirth by declaring he was looking forward to playing against ' Men ' , in truth he probably should have stayed for another year before moving up

As I have pointed out there are players out there , put them in the right environment and show some faith and some will become quality , this would happen more if more clubs could start to operate full time , which again for this structure to work long term is needed IMO

[scotchy]

some posters have this strange idea that any and every player not currently in SL isnt good enough to play in SL ,

A fair point.

or that money is the onlydeciding point to a players ability , it isnt

I don't see how this suggests how some players wouldn't need to be paid at all? I don't see how it links in with a lack of need for a salary cap? The premise is that there are other determining factors, not that pay doesn't matter.

It is a strawman because your resulting question is not linked to the premise. Questioning whether we should pay players at all because it is not the only determining factor of a player's quality is a strawman for you to attack. Had his premise been money is not a determining factor, you'd have a fair argument, but it wasn't. It was that it isn't the only determining factor. If it was, then everyone that pays the same wages would have the same quality of playing staff, and we both know that isn't true.

You could answer both of your questions and it still wouldn't affect his premise that money isn't the only deciding point behind the quality of a player.

You're right, it isnt linked to the premise, it accepts the premise entirely and then questions it. 

 

IF money isnt the only deciding point to a players ability, and IF there are players outside SL good enough to play SL, then that forces us to accept two further conclusions, that a team CAN pay less and compete, and that players who arent/werent full time professionals are capable of competing with the full time professionals.

 

So IF we accept that money isnt the deciding factor we accept that a Club A doesnt need to pay out the same wages as Club B to compete. That being the case, why have a salary cap? Under that premise (and under your logical fallacy we will move on to in a moment) then the amount a club is paying doesnt correlate with their quality and the removal of the SC would not, as people frequently argue, cause us to only have 3 clubs playing each other because nobody else can compete. 

 

The simple version, if you are saying the amount you pay out in wages does not mean you are better, then why have a salary cap is a perfectly valid question as your premise disproves one of the main justifications for it. 

 

If we also accept that there are players outside SL who are perfectly capable of playing and competing in SL, then that leaves the obvious question of what the justification is for paying those who are SL players when there are people just as capable of doing that job who are doing part time or for free? 

 

Notice that none of these points have anything to do with the absolutes you for some reason decided we were dealing with. I have never once mentioned it being the ONLY deciding factor, simply dealt with the premise that it is a factor which can be over-come. 

 

Now I admit, i have given the benefit of doubt to Krytensmate here and assumed he has made a cogent if incorrect argument. Which is why these questions were relevant. 

 

I accept the possibility that he wasnt making that argument, and the point he was infact making was a dumb logical fallacy, just paying players more doesnt make them better, which is as stupid as it is irrelevant. SL players arent better because they are paid more, they are paid more because they are better. 

 

So I ask again, if, as is in this example, Leigh DONT need to spend what Leeds are spending on wages for them to be able to compete, and in fact could put together a team on roughly half other squads, then what is the justification for making them pay anyone at all? and what is the justification for capping Leeds wages?

[scotchy]

So he may not be good enough for St Helens, who are current Champions, but what about other clubs?

 

If we look at the 6's at the other clubs we have:

 

Saints - Burns

Wigan - Williams

Wire - O'Brien

Leeds - McGuire/Sinfield

Hudds - Brough

Catalan - Carney

Widnes - Brown

Cas - Roberts

Hull KR - Campese

Salford - Chase

Wakefield - Miller

Hull - Pryce

 

That is the standard for a Super League 6. If he isn't better than them (plus the replacements like Ratchford, Bridge etc) then he isn't a Super League standard 6.

thats it really isnt it, 

 

There are probably a few who could fit in to SL and 'do a job' a few who could be 2nd string halves, who could be rotation props, utility backs etc etc, 

 

There are probably a fair few who could be squad players and fringe players, probably a couple of starters too. 

 

A team of them of that quality would get destroyed in most games. 

 

Hull KR are probably a good example of it, when they came up they came up as a side boasting about their talent, they had players who people thought were far too good for the championship they had Cockayne and Morrison, Smith and Webster who were stand outs in the national leagues, younger players like Gallagher and Murrell who were going to prove to Leeds how wrong they were to let them go, and what they found very quickly is that players like Goddard, Morton and Ford simply werent good enough for SL, players who they thought could be big players like AIzue and Tangata-toa weren't, that Gallagher and Murrell didnt get through at Leeds for a reason and that their game breakers in the championship were, with a fair wind and some hard work, squad players for lesser SL sides.

 

That is where the championships are, for some reason it seems to both upset and surprise people that the vast vast vast majority of SL quality talent is playing in SL, and that those who arent playing in SL arent because in general, they arent good enough. 

[Bulliac]

I totally agree that Gazza is nowhere near good enough for SL and should stay where he is..

[Krytensmate]

I totally agree that Gazza is nowhere near good enough for SL and should stay where he is..

I disagree , be happy to see him leave the Bulls and better himself , and help us out as well lol

[thundergaz]

If Gaskell isn't better than some of the names above listed I will eat my hat. Gaskell is quality probably the best half to ever play championship rugby. The best player I've seen in the champ before him was alker at Salford. Closely followed by chris hill, penky (when at his best) and Walmsley. Gaskell stands out like a quality player and should not be in the champ. That also applies for ridyard at leigh he is Leigh's cog not brierley like Gaskell is at bulls not o brien.

[jpmc]

nah pal riddy is well past it

[sweaty craiq]

Gaskell reminded me a lot of Tony Myler when I watched him play for Bulls at Leigh this season

[thundergaz]

nah pal riddy is well past it

Lol like the tougue in cheek comment lol. Don't worry no SL club will take him their too interested in brierley for some strange reason. But back onto Gaskell if he and one more bull player walked out with him at POR against our 17 bulls still would of won. I know that's OTT but this kid is surely an england international waiting to happen.

[jpmc]

Dont know how old he is but the highlights ive seen and the game at Leigh, he definitely looks the part.

I think by the end of the seaon he'll be redhot property

[sweaty craiq]

Ridyard and Brierley offer different things, the combination works but this year we have used the Reynolds/Brierley combination v Wigan and that worked too.

[thundergaz]

Dont know how old he is but the highlights ive seen and the game at Leigh, he definitely looks the part.

I think by the end of the seaon he'll be redhot property

Yes I agree. Saying that if I were a SL club looking like being in the bottom 4 I would be getting my cheque book out and signing Gaskell as I do firmly believe he would help them escape the bottom 4. Like I say I've never seen a player as good in the champ and that includes alker at Salford penky at his best chris hill etc etc. theirs also one player in the champ I can't believe that's never had a pop at SL level and that's Andrew bostock (bozzy) I know he's too old now but on his day he could mix it with any forward in our comp. saying that theirs loads in the champ that could easily move up I reckon but most SL clubs would rather bring in an Aussie than take the punt which is a crying shame.

[The Parksider]

Their's loads in the champ that could easily move up I reckon but most SL clubs would rather bring in an Aussie than take the punt which is a crying shame.

 

So go on then which Featherstone Rovers players would make good first XV11 SL players??

[thundergaz]

So go on then which Featherstone Rovers players would make good first XV11 SL players??

Where in my post did I say Fev players? I said loads could move up never mentioned Fev at all. You have some weird obsession about Fev for some reason parky. You either hate em or are a closet Fev fan I can't quite make my mind up which one it is lol.But as for Fev players none on recent evidence at this moment in time but I'm sure some will come to the fore at some point this season. Maybe maitua after Sunday if he plays lol.

[The Parksider]

That is where the championships are, for some reason it seems to both upset and surprise people that the vast vast vast majority of SL quality talent is playing in SL, and that those who arent playing in SL arent because in general, they arent good enough. 

 

 

That's of course true but also quite obvious. Leeds can count 20 top quality lads such that four have to warm the bench and two sit in the stand like Robbie Burrow.

 

If there are really quality SL players in the championship then they aren't even getting gigs in the 21-25 shirts.

 

I can accept there are great championship players who indeed are Superleague quality, but my measure of this isn't my opinion as a fan, that may be tainted with an agenda, but the opinion of Superleage coaching and scouting teams.

 

These people will of course have a look at any player anywhere, quick look at Danny Brough or Alex Walmesley and off to Superleague they go.  

 

What are people trying to say? That the dumb SL coaches and scouts are missing a series of players who could play first X111 never mind warm the bench or sit in the stand?

 

Are these RL professionals so dumb they can't judge whether a good quality part timer may (or may not) really kick on in a full time environment?? 

 

Is it only the Leigh club who have that ability to spot SL talent in CC where 12 SL club's staff cannot?

 

Is it only the Leigh club who can spot making someone full time is the key to making them SL quality?

 

What we are told Leigh are doing as some sort of stroke of genius, is clearly what all SL clubs have been doing for 19 years, 

 

Good luck to Leigh but your scouting and coaching team are 13th. in the queue to spot the best players and you've already missed the top 298, but have Brierley and Barlow to build around

[The Parksider]

Where in my post did I say Fev players? 

 

I merely asked you to back up your post about there being players who could become SL regulars, currently playing in the Championship.

 

Am I to assume there aren't any at Featherstone? If there aren't any there are they at Halifax or Sheffield??

 

I bet there aren't any at Hunslet, Whitehaven, Dewsbury, Donny, Workington and Batley?

 

I'd guess there's a couple at Leigh and a couple at Bradford as you say Gaskell and a.n. other? Or is it S.O.Else??

 

It's another "who is brave enough to name them" moment and you backed off mate. 

[thundergaz]

I merely asked you to back up your post about there being players who could become SL regulars, currently playing in the Championship.

Am I to assume there aren't any at Featherstone? If there aren't any there are they at Halifax or Sheffield??

I bet there aren't any at Hunslet, Whitehaven, Dewsbury, Donny, Workington and Batley?

I'd guess there's a couple at Leigh and a couple at Bradford as you say Gaskell and a.n. other? Or is it S.O.Else??

It's another "who is brave enough to name them" moment and you backed off mate.

I could name 10 easily and yes their is players at batley and dews too also town sheffield and fax. Apart from the obvious leigh and bulls their is quite alot of talent that could step up I reckon. Look at the 3 that's recently stepped up from Fev and they surprised me as I didn't think they would do it so easily. So yes I do reckon their is plenty that could. But that's just my opinion of course.

[Saint Toppy]

But back onto Gaskell if he and one more bull player walked out with him at POR against our 17 bulls still would of won. I know that's OTT but this kid is surely an england international waiting to happen.

Your right it is OTT, He couldn't hack it at SL club level with Saints and had some absolute shockers with the Bulls in SL.

Maybe he'll drastically improve in the championship but currently he's not SL standard, he has too many weaknesses in his game.

[thundergaz]

Your right it is OTT, He couldn't hack it at SL club level with Saints and had some absolute shockers with the Bulls in SL.

Maybe he'll drastically improve in the championship but currently he's not SL standard, he has too many weaknesses in his game.

Like I say its all a matter of opinion of whether they will or won't make the step up until they have been given the chance. But what I will say is you could be right as Leeds made us play hardaker at full back and he was rubbish at full back but now he's probably the best full back in SL so leeds must know what their doing along with the other top clubs. But what I will say is if Leeds can turn Zak into what they have theirs loads of potential like him in the champ that they could make better players.

[The Parksider]

I could name 10 easily

 

1. Name that 10!!

 

2. Why do you think 12 professional Rugby League coaching & scouting teams have missed them?? 

[scotchy]

Like I say its all a matter of opinion of whether they will or won't make the step up until they have been given the chance. But what I will say is you could be right as Leeds made us play hardaker at full back and he was rubbish at full back but now he's probably the best full back in SL so leeds must know what their doing along with the other top clubs. But what I will say is if Leeds can turn Zak into what they have theirs loads of potential like him in the champ that they could make better players.

Hardaker was a naturally talented 18 year old kid when Leeds picked him up, he was still a youth age player. The likes of Gaskell and McNally are older than Hardaker is now, never mind when he made the step up

[Krytensmate]

I and others are not suggesting that the next England 4 nations squad is languishing in the Championship unbeknown to the SL coaching teams , but there are players who given the opportunity to train full time and then placed within a reasonable quality squad would happily perform to ' SL ' standard , I put SL in the context of probably the bottom half of SL

I used the Brian Clough , Forest of 1978 analogy to point out that moving up from 1 division to the top of the next is virtually unheard of , that team being the only time I've ever seen it done , and I and nobody should reasonably expect that to happen , any club moving up wether they bring players with them or buy a completely new one will only ever initially compete in the bottom half at best

We will see , I hope it works , others on here it seems hope it won't , I suppose in a way I didn't want licensing to work wether it was good for the game or not , it seems to me others are of a similar opinion of the new structure , they claim to be supporters of the ' Soprt ' but don't want this particular system to work , because it doesnt ' suit ' them

All good fun discussing it though