Relegation

[scotchy]

I thought you didn't like strawmen arguments?...

I dont. Perhaps you should learn what one is?

I'm simply asking a question based upon the premise of his statement that pay doesn't equal quality. That being the case why pay players at all and why cap their wages?

If your argument is pay does not equate to quality, then asking why pay and why limit pay is not a strawman it's simply a relevant question.

[Bulliac]

Yes I like everybody else who follows sport is aware that there are less ' shocks ' in RL , but that is not where I am going with this , some posters have this strange idea that any and every player not currently in SL isnt good enough to play in SL , or that money is the only deciding point to a players ability , it isnt

 

Either way I am not predicting the future unlike some others on here , time will tell

Money isn't everything - it isn't plentiful, for instance...sorry - old joke.

 

You're correct, of course, it isn't everything, but it's certainly true that the better players tend to gravitate to where they can get the most money. Not that I blame them, it's a short life as a pro sportsman [particularly a sport like RL?] and they are right to put themselves and their families first and take what they can get. Must admit, even though I feel you and us aren't too shabby, I would have liked a few more of our 'home grown' players to have stood by the club.

 

I think a few players in our league could probably hack it in SL, To be fair, a few of ours were in SL last season and didn't look out of place. Most SL clubs look to their academies for young players though and that's another problem in our league, in that only three clubs actually offer a true career structure and even then it's pretty hard to keep the better ones, as we found out even before we left SL, where plenty of our ex-academy lads are still turning out for various clubs.

[scotchy]

Not quite how you put it , of that 2006 team that won the GF [ I cannot find the subs so will just stick to the 13 stated ] all bar Leroy Rivett who left the club played a total of 193 match ' places ' out of a total of 425 , 10 out of the 13 playing double figure numbers

You need to check your ' stats ' a bit better parky , I'me sure there are several others within the 2006 squad that remained at Rovers and played games in 2007 as well , Ime sure a rovers fan out there could support that statement

So the majority of places in 2007 were taken by different players to those in the GF squad.

There were 459 places btw.

[Krytensmate]

I thought you didn't like strawmen arguments?...

Nice one

[Krytensmate]

Stats for HKR based upon 28 matches played , 476 match ' places ' , 193 filled by players who played in the 2006 GF starting 13 , 174 filled by the 10 players parky added to the team that played the last match , leaving another 109 positions to be filled by a.n.others

[scotchy]

Nice one

why because he got something wrong which allowed you to avoid a difficult question that hugely undermined your point?

[scotchy]

Stats for HKR based upon 28 matches played , 476 match ' places ' , 193 filled by players who played in the 2006 GF starting 13 , 174 filled by the 10 players parky added to the team that played the last match , leaving another 109 positions to be filled by a.n.others

you still can't get it right can you? Lol

[Dave T]

less teams, not less games. The problem with the play offs was less the number of teams that qualified and more their quality.

This season we have a possibility that Wigan finish top having beaten Leeds 4 times in the league only to have to play them again as leeds finish 4th. I really don't see this new system as one which can function with its legitimate champions being crowned through these play offs.

It works in the RU Premiership. I still have heard no reason why the GF will be weakened.

 

In the last 10 years here, the League Leaders have failed to reach the GF 4 times, and the League Leaders have failed to win the title 6 out of 10 times.

 

People haev complained about the Playoffs for a few years now, longing for a return to the top 5 or 6, but the GF has been unaffected. I see no reason why this will change. People go to Old Trafford in October to see two teams battle out for the Super League Trophy - that will be exactly the same again.

[The Parksider]

You need to check your ' stats ' a bit better Parky.....

 

You should know by now that I'm not interested in bending figures to suit arguments, something you have made a very bad attempt to do.

 

I didn't even actually produce any "Stats" did I?

 

It's a fact that HKR found the best team they could to get them up, then once promotion was gained and they were favourites to go straight back down they found the best new players to keep them up and when they stayed up by staying ahead of salford, they found the best players they could to push on to the eight.

[Krytensmate]

You should know by now that I'm not interested in bending figures to suit arguments, something you have made a very bad attempt to do.

 

I didn't even actually produce any "Stats" did I?

 

It's a fact that HKR found the best team they could to get them up, then once promotion was gained and they were favourites to go straight back down they found the best new players to keep them up and when they stayed up by staying ahead of salford, they found the best players they could to push on to the eight.

But still a sizeable retention of 12 out of 13 starting line up , with as I said 10 of those reaching double figures , struggling to find Rovers squad total for 2006 , but I recall it not being the biggest

[The Parksider]

So HKR didn't do it did they. They didn't build a squad in the lower leagues and survive with them in SL they basically changed the whole team for overseas journeymen

Has any side done what he is suggesting? To borrow a phrase, it is complete fantasy to think that Leigh have a squad full of SL talent, complete pie in the sky to pretend that squad would survive in SL.

 

Well I didn't post what I posted to "have a go" at Mr. Kryten, It's just that I have followed the game avidly for half a century and cannot remember anything like he suggests so respectfully I have given the last example of a club who built up through the leagues, and no they didn't build their SL team in the championship. The championship players all got phased out very quickly.

 

There are SL clubs who when they got relegated they retained what decent SL players they could and took them back into Superleague.

 

Ironically Leigh went up in 2005 after building up from near relegation to the third tier, coming top and racking up 38 points a game on average with some whopping wins. Far too good for the Championship??

 

Maybe, but their directors didn't seem to think they were good enough for Superleague so they signed such as Craig Stapleton, Darren Flearey, Rob Jackson, Jason Kent, John Wilshire, and Mark Leafa.

 

As it was they lost the first seven anyway but gelled somewhat until Leeds visited Hilton Park and racked up 60 which then saw the club lose 17 on the trot.

 

London put 70 on them, Leeds another 74, Hull 76, Fartown 68 and Saints 78.

 

No mucking about here, I don't think Leigh can afford to believe they can build an SL side in the Championship because they may get a nasty shock, nor do I believe the obvious contrived answer to my post that Leigh maybe made the mistake of buying those six players.

 

These six were played an average of 28 games each out of the 31, the coaches believed they were the chance for Leigh to survive throughout that season right to the end. 

 

The club IIRC bought as well as funds allowed. If today they have little intention on building the team if they get in SL the only logical conclusion I have for that is not that their coach is Brian Clough, but their Chairman is not Neil Hudgell.

[Krytensmate]

Well I didn't post what I posted to "have a go" at Mr. Kryten, It's just that I have followed the game avidly for half a century and cannot remember anything like he suggests so respectfully I have given the last example of a club who built up through the leagues, and no they didn't build their SL team in the championship. The championship players all got phased out very quickly.

 

You posted earlier that HKR did not keep the players that won them promotion , citing only 3 , when in fact 12 of the starting 13 were retained and of those 12 most [ 10 ] played close to or more than half their SL games in 2007

 

So is 12 not a considerable % of 13 ? , is playing over half of your matches in a season not a majority ?

[Krytensmate]

Ironically Leigh went up in 2005 after building up from near relegation to the third tier, coming top and racking up 38 points a game on average with some whopping wins. Far too good for the Championship??

 

Maybe, but their directors didn't seem to think they were good enough for Superleague so they signed such as Craig Stapleton, Darren Flearey, Rob Jackson, Jason Kent, John Wilshire, and Mark Leafa.

 

As it was they lost the first seven anyway but gelled somewhat until Leeds visited Hilton Park and racked up 60 which then saw the club lose 17 on the trot.

 

London put 70 on them, Leeds another 74, Hull 76, Fartown 68 and Saints 78.

 

No mucking about here, I don't think Leigh can afford to believe they can build an SL side in the Championship because they may get a nasty shock, nor do I believe the obvious contrived answer to my post that Leigh maybe made the mistake of buying those six players.

 

These six were played an average of 28 games each out of the 31, the coaches believed they were the chance for Leigh to survive throughout that season right to the end. 

 

The club IIRC bought as well as funds allowed. If today they have little intention on building the team if they get in SL the only logical conclusion I have for that is not that their coach is Brian Clough, but their Chairman is not Neil Hudgell.

 

The relevance of this ' Novel ' is what exactly ?

[scotchy]

It's funny to see someone picking the stats that fit arguing with someone who can't even find out how many games were played that season and is trying to equate less than 50% with 13 out of 13.

[Liverpool Rover]

The bulk of Hull KR's 2006 Grand Final team were involved in the opening game v Wakefield the following year, and from what I remember they were the core of the team of those early games when we beat Wakefield, Huddersfield, Wigan and Leeds. Hardman and Lennon arrived during the season to help with the injuries that we were having from what I recall and we all know how Cooke arrived. It wasn't until after the 2007 season that the players from NL one started to be seriously phased out.

[Krytensmate]

The bulk of Hull KR's 2006 Grand Final team were involved in the opening game v Wakefield the following year, and from what I remember they were the core of the team of those early games when we beat Wakefield, Huddersfield, Wigan and Leeds. Hardman and Lennon arrived during the season to help with the injuries that we were having from what I recall and we all know how Cooke arrived. It wasn't until after the 2007 season that the players from NL one started to be seriously phased out.

I seem to recall your 2006 squad wasnt the biggest in number LR

[geek]

.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

I dont. Perhaps you should learn what one is?

I'm simply asking a question based upon the premise of his statement that pay doesn't equal quality. That being the case why pay players at all and why cap their wages?

If your argument is pay does not equate to quality, then asking why pay and why limit pay is not a strawman it's simply a relevant question.

some posters have this strange idea that any and every player not currently in SL isnt good enough to play in SL ,

A fair point.

or that money is the onlydeciding point to a players ability , it isnt

I don't see how this suggests how some players wouldn't need to be paid at all? I don't see how it links in with a lack of need for a salary cap? The premise is that there are other determining factors, not that pay doesn't matter.

It is a strawman because your resulting question is not linked to the premise. Questioning whether we should pay players at all because it is not the only determining factor of a player's quality is a strawman for you to attack. Had his premise been money is not a determining factor, you'd have a fair argument, but it wasn't. It was that it isn't the only determining factor. If it was, then everyone that pays the same wages would have the same quality of playing staff, and we both know that isn't true.

You could answer both of your questions and it still wouldn't affect his premise that money isn't the only deciding point behind the quality of a player.

[The Parksider]

The bulk of Hull KR's 2006 Grand Final team were involved in the opening game v Wakefield the following year, It wasn't until after the 2007 season that the players from NL one started to be seriously phased out.

 

More like half the Championship team continued in the first season when Rovers came second bottom and as you say in the second season most of these went.

 

The point at debate was about whether any club has built a side for Superleague outside the top division and then largely kept that side going in Superleague.

 

By your own admission and by the facts at hand Hudgell did not do this with HKR, by your own admission by the second season they'd just about all gone.

[The Parksider]

The relevance of this ' Novel ' is what exactly ?

 

I cannot point out a relevance that your ever lengthening record of being oblivious to the realities will allow you to accept without some glib aside, rhetorical question or blind eye that helps avoid said reality.

 

Just enjoy the ride. I know I will. Bradford.v.Leigh one hell of a match.....

[Krytensmate]

More like half the Championship team continued in the first season when Rovers came second bottom and as you say in the second season most of these went.

 

The point at debate was about whether any club has built a side for Superleague outside the top division and then largely kept that side going in Superleague.

 

By your own admission and by the facts at hand Hudgell did not do this with HKR, by your own admission by the second season they'd just about all gone.

So you don't accept the opinion of a Rovers fan as to how he saw the ' core ' of the 2007 team being the promoted players until injury started to bite , and as I have intimated that the HKR 2006 squad was light on actual numbers needed to contest a SL season , requiring them to bring in more players than would be normal

Yes nobody is suggesting that second season in they made probably more changes than any other team , part of their recruitment policy at that time could have been down to their lack of junior development

[Krytensmate]

I cannot point out a relevance that your ever lengthening record of being oblivious to the realities will allow you to accept without some glib aside, rhetorical question or blind eye that helps avoid said reality.

 

Just enjoy the ride. I know I will. Bradford.v.Leigh one hell of a match.....

Your ' realities ' are your opinions , I don't have to accept them as anything other than opinions , neither do I ask for mine to be accepted as anything different

Just as Wellsy has pointed out to Scotchy in his post above

We've had over the years of previous P and R seasons constant reminders that the promoted team would lose to the relegated one , also that the promoted part time club cannibalises the relegated one of players and how this is a recipe for failure , so I am pointing out a different philosophy that is being tried , and famously Einstien pointed out that doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result is a sure sign of madness

Do I know for certain this ' ethos ' will work ? , no , but it has more chance than a proven failed one

[Saint Toppy]

some posters have this strange idea that any and every player not currently in SL isnt good enough to play in SL ,

A fair point.

or that money is the onlydeciding point to a players ability , it isnt

 

Your right, there's a few players in the Championship who could easily slot into SL teams.

 

From Leigh, Tom Armstrong could well have still been at Saints, he only left because he wanted a part time contract so he could concentrate on his studies, Saints offered him a full time deal and clearly thought he had potential. He's showing that potential now and if Leigh dont get promoted this year he could well get offers from SL clubs.

I'm sure Brierley would also get snapped up by one of a host of SL clubs if he ever decides he wants to leave Leigh. He definately has the potential to play SL.

[thundergaz]

Your right, there's a few players in the Championship who could easily slot into SL teams.

From Leigh, Tom Armstrong could well have still been at Saints, he only left because he wanted a part time contract so he could concentrate on his studies, Saints offered him a full time deal and clearly thought he had potential. He's showing that potential now and if Leigh dont get promoted this year he could well get offers from SL clubs.

I'm sure Brierley would also get snapped up by one of a host of SL clubs if he ever decides he wants to leave Leigh. He definately has the potential to play SL.

Their is loads in the championship that could step up to SL. How the hell that Gaskell at bulls is not playing SL I will never know. He's way too good for the championship. Their is loads more but he's the one that should definately not be playing champ rugby.

[jpmc]

Their is loads in the championship that could step up to SL. How the hell that Gaskell at bulls is not playing SL I will never know. He's way too good for the championship. Their is loads more but he's the one that should definately not be playing champ rugby.

Absolutely right gaz,Gaskell is way to good,a SL club should come in for him immediately.