Salford abandon Academy

[Southern Reiver]

MK actually said Salford and Leigh are looking to have a joint Academy and possibly a super academy involving Oldham, Swinton and Manchester Rangers.

To me that makes a lot of sense and enables a pathway for players to play to their ability.

I am aware of that and maybe missed the point a little. Amm was on the wave length, the listings come from the discussions in 1995 and Leigh were not at the SL table at the time. Uncle Mo didn't have them on his radar or had just assum d they were part of Wigan.

It might make sense the suggestion you've put forward and I'd tend to agree. However the irony of the situation shouldn't be lost.

[JM2010]

Why the hell would Wakefield join with Cas?

Trinity are producing players that are good enough to get into their SL squad

Next season they've got 8 or 9 Academy produced players in the first team.

This season they've had 4 England reps at Junior level and have produced both the Albert Goldthorpe Young Player of the Year and the Steve Prescott Man of Steel Young Player of the Year.

This wouldn't affect that at all. I know Wakefield have been producing players but if their academy squad is made up of 20 players and 10 are good enough that still leaves a surplus of 10 who would probably be better off left in the amateur game.

[JM2010]

Obviously there is a point where this tails off and you no longer have enough players in professional set ups, but in principle I can see the logic (for some clubs at least).

I'm not sure if that would happen as the same amount of players would still be progressing through to the first team as they do now but they may be a bit more ready as they should hopefully have been playing at a higher standard

Y

[OMEGA]

This wouldn't affect that at all. I know Wakefield have been producing players but if their academy squad is made up of 20 players and 10 are good enough that still leaves a surplus of 10 who would probably be better off left in the amateur game.

So when they're 16 years old who identifies which 10 are going to make it and how?

[JM2010]

Same person who does it now but only the cream would be getting signed (as they do now) but they wouldn't have to rush out and sign the extra players (as they do now) to fill the team

[OMEGA]

Rubbish!

As soon as you reduce the base of the talent pyramid you reduce the number of those who make it by the same ratio.

Also talent ID isn't a precise science and no one knows who the mythical 10 players will be, they only know that out of a group of 60 players there are probably 10 that will make it. Even then, the mythical 10 need to be part of a well run and efficient development programme.

What we need to do is find a way to increase the funding that goes into Junior development and increase the numbers who have access and are exposed to it.

Broadening the talent pyramid and thereby increasing the number of those who make the grade.

[LeeF]

Rubbish!

As soon as you reduce the base of the talent pyramid you reduce the number of those who make it by the same ratio.

Also talent ID isn't a precise science and no one knows who the mythical 10 players will be, they only know that out of a group of 60 players there are probably 10 that will make it. Even then, the mythical 10 need to be part of a well run and efficient development programme.

What we need to do is find a way to increase the funding that goes into Junior development and increase the numbers who have access and are exposed to it.

Broadening the talent pyramid and thereby increasing the number of those who make the grade.

The base of the pyramid is the youth game. That is what needs expanding

[JM2010]

You do have some valid points but I'm not suggesting reducing the base of the talent pyramid. My suggestion is taking players from the base without depleting it too much. I'm not saying all academies should merge but it might be beneficial for certain clubs and areas

[OMEGA]

The base of the pyramid is the youth game. That is what needs expanding

I totally agree, there isn't some singular wonderdrug type solution to improving and expanding the game.

What I do know is that reducing the number of players who are exposed to the highest standards of development will pro rata reduce the number of players who can compete at the highest level.

A good start would be to have one Governing Body

[DoubleD]

But it's also building the links and tapping into new potential revenue streams and fans. The incentive is obvious, it's that small time thinking that holds back the game. Why do you think the likes of Man City are spending millions on their academy setup when they could just buy them?

[The Parksider]

Why not go the whole hog and just have a Lancashire and Yorkshire academy?

 

Why not go your fantasy route and open up academies in "Goole" and "Barnsley".

 

Selby Warriors can't find enough players and failed to complete their U15's fixtures and didn't appear to have a U14 team.

 

Your still blind to the reality that Cas have all on to keep the kids playing down Lock Lane and over at Panthers, both a walk away from Wheldon Road. 

 

This season Panthers lost all 18 games at U15 level and didn't field a side at U16 level, yet you think you could get a junior ARL clubs thriving at all levels in Goole and Barnsley feeding Cas's academy!

 

Also talent ID isn't a precise science and no one knows who the mythical 10 players will be, they only know that out of a group of 60 players there are probably 10 that will make it. 

 

We were given the figure before it's more like 100 kids and 2 make it.

 

What I do know is that reducing the number of players who are exposed to the highest standards of development will pro rata reduce the number of players who can compete at the highest level.

 

That's not the view of the coaches over at Hull.

 

They didn't find it hard to conclude that to get two academy squads together dragged a lot of kids into the academies that were not going to make it.

 

The top coaches & the two clubs concluded that they needed quality over quantity to create a better environment for the better kids who they can largely identify, and this extended to the coaches in that there are quality junior coaches and poor unreliable coaches.

 

Wakefields struggles apparently led to some of the best Wakey lads choosing to go to Wigan academy. There is certainly a good case for a Calder academy especially if that also gets the kids in from Featherstone Lions who in the past have chosen to go to Hull and Leeds.

 

If your arguing quantity over quality then it would appear that those who run academies have had this dilemma and chose quality.

[The Parksider]

 

Yeah but if Cas are spending £60k a year on a development officer in Barnsley and one in Goole (£25k each) and £10k in miscellanous spending i.e. facility hire, coaching courses.............

 

 

Your posts are bang on.

 

But why would Cas spend £100,000 in two soccer towns when their own local clubs are struggling for players??

 

I think Terrywebbisgod set out the fact that Professional clubs are not allowed to directly set up junior clubs anyway as it unbalances the junior game.

 

They can encourage and facilitate it to a point, but I think it's a fantasy that Cas can pay someone to walk into Goole or Barnsley and start renting pitches and advertising round the towns for kids to come and play RL  and maybe one day you can play for Castleford RLFC.

 

To get a productive club you'd need to draw in around 300 kids, and willing parents  and find enough facilities and a home base to run as a club, to train and socialise. To believe someone can go into Goole 20 miles away and achieve this in a town of only 17,000 with virtually no RL history is fantasy.

[The Parksider]

 

Yeah but if Cas are spending £60k a year on a development officer in Barnsley

 

 

Barnsley have embedded Soccer as the local game since about 1887.

 

However looking at the Barnsley & District Junior soccer league it appears they are struggling and are doubling up the age ranges to be able to form meaningful leagues.

 

I'd like someone to suggest what you've posted above that comes from DD's cunning plan, to Steve Gill and Mr. Fulton. 

 

Sheffield Hillsborough Hawks have 25 years history in a much bigger place than Goole or Barnsley. in that 25 years I do not think they have produced a Superleague Professional yet. (hey "it doesn't happen overnight")

 

So what price pumping £60K into both Goole and Barnsley for 25 years?

 

Steve Gill and Mr, Fulton are looking at £3,000,000.....

 

To get where??

[Billypop]

But it's also building the links and tapping into new potential revenue streams and fans. The incentive is obvious, it's that small time thinking that holds back the game. Why do you think the likes of Man City are spending millions on their academy setup when they could just buy them?

Maybe because if they don't, other clubs will pick up the talent and potentially use it against them. Also, and this is perhaps even more relevant when compared with the likes of Cas, City can afford to pay the money they need to in order to keep what talent they do develop out of their rivals' hands.

[DoubleD]

It requires an all encompassing strategy Saint, it should never be pigeonholed as either just development or just marketing. It should be about building a strong core and foundation, engaging with business, potential sponsors and these communities. This is exactly what the Rhinos are doing.

There are loads of creative ways of funding it through partnerships, grants, existing players/coaching staff so the £60k figure you pluck out the air is misleading

[mmp]

 

Are you suggesting this for marketing or junior development purposes? The two are not the same thing. If a club wanted to spend £60k a year on marketing there is probably better things they could do than try and set up an junior leagues somewhere else. If a club wanted to spend £60k a year on youth development there is probably better things they could do.

 

For the cost of 60k, which is a fair approximation of what it could cost to set up two development officers and admin in one new town for one year, you could pay to qualify 300 new coaches to Level 2 standard. From u13s-u15s there are 97 clubs in North West Counties. On NWC juniors (u12s down) there are 50 clubs listed. With the same it would cost to try and launch rugby league in, for example Barnsley, for one year, you could provide every team in the North West with a coaching course for a volunteer for each of their u15s, u14s, u13s, u12s, u11s, u10s and u9s teams. I know which option I'd have more confidence in producing a few decent players for SL clubs to sign to academies a few years in the future! 

 

 

100% the case. 

[The Parksider]

It requires an all encompassing strategy Saint, it should never be pigeonholed as either just development or just marketing. It should be about building a strong core and foundation, engaging with business, potential sponsors and these communities. 

 

Where in any of that empty rhetoric do you explain how we improve junior development?

 

Listen to what the Saint says......

 

A more comparable example would be Man City setting up an Academy in a small town in Canada, spending 60% of their annual wage bill on it (over 15 years - so £135 million), in the hope of getting a few u16s from that area. 

 

If a club wanted to spend £60k a year on youth development there is probably better things they could do.

 

For the cost of 60k, which is a fair approximation of what it could cost to set up two development officers and admin in one new town for one year, you could pay to qualify 300 new coaches to Level 2 standard. From u13s-u15s there are 97 clubs in North West Counties. On NWC juniors (u12s down) there are 50 clubs listed. With the same it would cost to try and launch rugby league in, for example Barnsley, for one year, you could provide every team in the North West with a coaching course for a volunteer for each of their u15s, u14s, u13s, u12s, u11s, u10s and u9s teams. I know which option I'd have more confidence in producing a few decent players for SL clubs to sign to academies a few years in the future! 

 

This is the answer.

 

As Bowes set out for us all the Midlands development money went to waste as the final result was too few kids in too few teams. Throwing large sums of money into Junior RL in areas where there isn't any or where if there is it's thin and has never produced professionals is barking,

 

The idea also assumes that everything is fine in the NWCJRL or the YJRL and that they have no need for spare money for coaching or development, that they don't suffer low numbers, gaps in the age groups and clubs unable to fulfil their fixtures.

 

You have the multi-SL champions Leeds with their latest crop of young pro's struggling, and the club buying in from overseas.to shore up gaps Garry Hetherington never envisaged when he said around 2001 "We will produce our own players".

 

The local set up has produced results, so that's where any development money should go, not to Barnsley or Birmingham.but to Leeds and Warrington, not to Oxford or Wrexham but to Castleford and Widnes.

 

And Manchester City is an irrelevance.

[Oxford]

Where in any of that empty rhetoric do you explain how we improve junior development?

 

Listen to what the Saint says......

 

 

This is the answer.

 

As Bowes set out for us all the Midlands development money went to waste as the final result was too few kids in too few teams. Throwing large sums of money into Junior RL in areas where there isn't any or where if there is it's thin and has never produced professionals is barking,

 

The idea also assumes that everything is fine in the NWCJRL or the YJRL and that they have no need for spare money for coaching or development, that they don't suffer low numbers, gaps in the age groups and clubs unable to fulfil their fixtures.

 

You have the multi-SL champions Leeds with their latest crop of young pro's struggling, and the club buying in from overseas.to shore up gaps Garry Hetherington never envisaged when he said around 2001 "We will produce our own players".

 

The local set up has produced results, so that's where any development money should go, not to Barnsley or Birmingham.but to Leeds and Warrington, not to Oxford or Wrexham but to Castleford and Widnes.

 

And Manchester City is an irrelevance.

From all of your posts Parky would you be suggesting SL clubs in the area before ploughing in money for Juniors?

Deafening isn't it?