Salford abandon Academy

[The Parksider]

Exactly. There's so many areas close by that are ripe for development and unearthing new talent, North Yorkshire, South Yorkshire, North East, Merseyside, East Yorkshire (Beverley), Lincolnshire, Cheshire, Lancashire (Preston, Blackpool), even the Northern Midlands towns. You can't have a small spread based around a few teams fighting for few players, you have to open more areas to the game. 

 

Sports England paid for development officers and there was an increase in kids playing as I understand it (corrections welcome)?? Once the officers went the whole  thing fell apart. Whilst they could go round schools getting a captive audience throwing a RL ball about and counting that as new RL players, none of this appeared to lead to serious junior clubs. IIRC the withdrawal of funds was partly on the idea the results were being over stated by the RFL. 

 

Wales and the south west appeared to be developing something more concrete which may have been thatnks to Celtic Crisaders and again I seem to recall Wigan and Leeds heading down there looking to see what talent had been unearthed found a couple of kids, but came away pretty soon after that..

 

It's easy to say Leeds should pay for a development officer to go around north Yorkshire where all the Rugby kids play Rugby Union and "unearth talent" but that is already been done by Rugby Union. I do recall Leeds taking in a Union scrum half from North Yorkshire (so it's been done) but he was too steeped in Union and didn't adapt.

 

How would any development officer manage to get enough kids and enough volunteers together in these places against stringent opposition from RU to form a junior RL club and who could that club go play??

 

Add "development officers" to "marketing" to "internationals" as another one word answer to all the games ills.

[The Parksider]

Presumably there are players in recent seasons who have come through Salford's Academy into the first team.

 

Well this is a big question.

 

If the academy works great, if it doesn't why do it, if the rules (aka licensing) do not require this? 

 

Just a cursory look and Salford can point to Evalds perhaps, albeit I can't find his origin (salford fans??). The Walnes comes from Leyland. (edit jason Walton)

 

Salford have always seemed to have last pick of the best kids because the best (and they are few and far between) can go to Wigan, Wire and Saints.

 

Who in their right mind would not do that??

 

The big criticism of the academy is it takes so many kids for a ride to nowhere, and it may well be that the Salford academy has been doing this for years with the odd exception. 

 

But additions and corrections welcome.

[EagleEyePie]

It doesn't have to mirror what Worcester have done but the basis and mentality behind it. SL clubs should have development officers in areas outside their immediate vicinity to expand their pool as well as core audience. Not enough do this and are too lazy which is why minimum standards should be used

 

To be fair Wigan (and possibly a few others) already try this to some extent. Wigan's academy side isn't made up solely of players from Wigan, even though it's obviously one of the strongest areas for young rugby league talent. If you look at some of our top players in the under 19's, Josh Ganson is from St Helens, Jack Wells is from Salford, Lewis Heckford is from Leeds, Jack Higginson is from Rochdale, Callum Field is from Pontefract.

 

I think one of the problems with RL at the moment is that the current system massively favours clubs with strong academy sides, because not only do they come from areas where there's a strong base of young talent but they also sign up the best talent from other areas too. The clubs with the best performing academies tend to be those with the most money and are the 'big names' or the 'top 4 or 5' clubs in Super League. It's difficult for clubs outside of that group to compete because they don't necessarily generate enough money to put the same funds into youth development as the others do and they don't have the pulling power.

 

It also doesn't help that until recently the TV deal didn't even cover the salary cap. A lot of people call for the salary cap to increase but at the moment there are too many clubs making losses. Even the bigger clubs are doing so, but at least for them they are still sustainable and backed by smart businessmen. At the moment there isn't the money in the game for clubs to get too expansive and start creating academies further afield when it's hard enough to maintain and strengthen their own.

 

Perhaps Koukash just thinks that the system as it stands doesn't work for Salford. Maybe the fact that he's struggled to attract the best players to Salford's academy and that it's continually been reviewed by the RFL as needing improvement has made him decide that an academy side just isn't worth it. That the system only serves to make the strong clubs stronger and keep the weaker clubs in their place.

 

However, that's not exactly much different to other British sports. In the Premier League the higher up you finish the more money you get, and since the top clubs generally finish in the top places they keep getting richer and it's harder for smaller clubs to compete at the top. That's just a fact of sport. Fans of rugby league might be more willing to accept that if it wasn't for the fact that our closest competitor, the NRL, is one of the most competitive leagues in world sport.

 

As it stands clubs might see signing cast offs from stronger academies as a better route to improvement than developing their own, but for a club to scrap their academy outright is definitely a poor move.

 

To go slightly off topic, one of the issues with rugby league is that there is still quite a large gulf between the potential earning power of some of the top clubs compared to quite a lot of others. There aren't exactly enough big market areas to create 12 strong Super League sides at present, as they rely on their own earning power and ability to generate money. If you take Castleford for example. They have come a long way in the last few years and really strengthened the side, but it's a fairly small town. I think the population is around 40,000. They also have Wakefield and Featherstone to compete with in that area too. It's hard to see how they continue to improve further to become a regular top 4 challenger when their ability to generate income is relatively limited. They seem to be run very well financially so it's not a criticism of them. But if the salary cap was raised in the future they aren't likely to be able to generate the money themselves to spend more on players. The best way for Super League to grow is to continue to increase sponsorship of the sport and increase TV revenue, so that Super League clubs receive more than enough to cover the salary cap and aren't too reliant on making their own money in what are difficult markets in traditional rugby league areas. All Super League clubs would then have more money to spend on building strong academies and possibly creating them further afield.

 

This is why I brought up the issue of funding for Super League clubs in a previous post. We need a strong Super League with profitable teams in order to grow the sport, but at the moment clubs just don't generate enough money because it's hard to attract sponsors. That's why the TV deal was so important. Repeatedly negotiating bigger TV rights deals is what pushed competitions like the Premier League and the NFL sky high in terms of the money they make. If Salford were able to cover the salary cap and then some with money from broadcasting rights then Koukash wouldn't need to cut costs right now. When even clubs in the elite competition are cutting costs and merging academies it suggests the game isn't really expanding as it should be. That's why I agree with Ian Lenagan on his criticisms of the most recently signed TV deal. The game is now cut off from further increases in TV revenue for several years when it really should be pushing aggressively to make more and more money.

[TaxiEgg]

It's simple we need more kids playing to increase the Talent Pool the problem is the game is heamorging alarmingly 14 years up .

MMP refers to the NW only having 25 U18s in Yorkshire and Humberside it is far worse down to 7 at the last count .

The RFL have commissioned several surveys employed people with little or no understanding of the community game and come up with no corrective action plan other than to try and dilute the game at Junioir level taking out tackling and the play the ball .

Thankfully the regional leagues have stood firm and stopped the madness .

We stated several years ago that the scholarships and academies focussing on the elite at the expense of the whole game would be detrimental in the long run and that is now bearing fruit .

So can anyone please tell me what the next master plan is from the RFL ?

Embed the Pathway was the next garlic bread not in Salford it appears but will Salford still be getting the Sky hand outs for the foundation ?

The foundations get 3 million over several years whilst the community get nothing but are expected to produce the numbers to keep the game alive now which ever way you look at it that is a perverse way to run the sport .

No one at the top as clue on how to repair the game because they are only interested in protecting their fat salaries .

We have a fantastic product but we can't manage it .

[DoubleD]

Well if Leeds did this I suppose they could put "development" officers in Harrogate, York, and all the way up the Aire valley to keighley, but again why would they put them in Bradford, Wakefield, Castleford and Huddersfield in the other directions.

As far as I know Leeds development policy is based on their "foundation" which other clubs have where the club and the game is actively promoted. Part of that is to get the kids coming to Headingley to play and I have seen York kids come and play as well as other teams from outside Leeds. Leeds encourage (but are not allowed to get involved in) local junior RL. They do go to schools and support Schools RL, my wife's school produced Jamie Broughton,

So I do think Leeds cast the net wide and suspect other big clubs who can afford the staff do the same. Asking Cas and Wakefield to employ Development officers may be a problem due to their serious financial difficulties, I think they do what they can.

I have not come across any "Laziness" though? Can you set out why you think they are all lazy?

Leeds do have a wide enough conurbation and the foundation does an excellent job in promoting the game and feeding new junior clubs. Granted it's harder for Cas and Wakey but with the salary cap now covered by the TV deal, these clubs really should be doing more, otherwise what's the point of having them in SL. And people wonder why the RFL is so keen to get the likes of Toulouse and Toronto in - because there are too many basket case clubs

[Spidey]

It's simple we need more kids playing to increase the Talent Pool the problem is the game is heamorging alarmingly 14 years up .

MMP refers to the NW only having 25 U18s in Yorkshire and Humberside it is far worse down to 7 at the last count .

The RFL have commissioned several surveys employed people with little or no understanding of the community game and come up with no corrective action plan other than to try and dilute the game at Junioir level taking out tackling and the play the ball .

Thankfully the regional leagues have stood firm and stopped the madness .

We stated several years ago that the scholarships and academies focussing on the elite at the expense of the whole game would be detrimental in the long run and that is now bearing fruit .

So can anyone please tell me what the next master plan is from the RFL ?

Embed the Pathway was the next garlic bread not in Salford it appears but will Salford still be getting the Sky hand outs for the foundation ?

The foundations get 3 million over several years whilst the community get nothing but are expected to produce the numbers to keep the game alive now which ever way you look at it that is a perverse way to run the sport .

No one at the top as clue on how to repair the game because they are only interested in protecting their fat salaries .

We have a fantastic product but we can't manage it .

Agree with all of that.

Problems are often pointed at too many academies. However for a so called elite sport they should be a must. When you really delve into the problem its participation at grass roots that's the issue that's where money should be thrown at both by the governing body and the SL clubs themselves

[The Parksider]

Leeds do have a wide enough conurbation and the foundation does an excellent job in promoting the game and feeding new junior clubs. Granted it's harder for Cas and Wakey but with the salary cap now covered by the TV deal, these clubs really should be doing more, otherwise what's the point of having them in SL. And people wonder why the RFL is so keen to get the likes of Toulouse and Toronto in - because there are too many basket case clubs

 

A point for another day but had the area obtained a modern stadium and a team representative of that area, with adequate commercial and private backing I'm sure they'd have an academy  far superior to Leeds, who like to dip into that area for players.

 

I'm not sure Cas can do that much based on such a small catchment area, where Steve Gill states less and less kids are playing Rugby League. I don't believe that's just an excuse.

 

Wakefield and Cas (Ponte and Fev) may also be right for a joint academy.

 

And yes Toront and touliuse offer new players

[DoubleD]

A point for another day but had the area obtained a modern stadium and a team representative of that area, with adequate commercial and private backing I'm sure they'd have an academy far superior to Leeds, who like to dip into that area for players.

I'm not sure Cas can do that much based on such a small catchment area, where Steve Gill states less and less kids are playing Rugby League. I don't believe that's just an excuse.

Wakefield and Cas (Ponte and Fev) may also be right for a joint academy.

And yes Toront and touliuse offer new players

But you're still not getting the point, that is exactly why Wakey and Cas should be growing their catchment areas. I see very little evidence of this

[Spidey]

But you're still not getting the point, that is exactly why Wakey and Cas should be growing their catchment areas. I see very little evidence of this

This is a great point

A little insight into what Warrington want to achieve - about 2 years ago they met with all the local clubs in the town and highlighted the gaps in squads and age groups in the town. Their aim was have full squads in every age group for every club therefore increasing the player pool in the town. There are directors there disappointed that there's not a lot of Warrington lads playing first team rugby

It's a long process since that "target" was put in place all teams in the town have seen growth. Warrington have development officers working with school hubs and direct players to the relevant clubs if not currently attached

Even in a strong RL area there's always room for growth if the SL team is willing to invest time and resource

[DoubleD]

This is a great point

A little insight into what Warrington want to achieve - about 2 years ago they met with all the local clubs in the town and highlighted the gaps in squads and age groups in the town. Their aim was have full squads in every age group for every club therefore increasing the player pool in the town. There are directors there disappointed that there's not a lot of Warrington lads playing first team rugby

It's a long process since that "target" was put in place all teams in the town have seen growth. Warrington have development officers working with school hubs and direct players to the relevant clubs if not currently attached

Even in a strong RL area there's always room for growth if the SL team is willing to invest time and resource

Absolutely or even look beyond the immediate boundaries to Barnsley etc. It doesn't happen overnight but too many clubs have short term thinking

Ironically this is what Salford seemed to be doing in Manchester before they allegedly pulled the plug before the fruits of their work could be seen

[londonrlfan]

It's easy to say Leeds should pay for a development officer to go around north Yorkshire where all the Rugby kids play Rugby Union and "unearth talent" but that is already been done by Rugby Union. I do recall Leeds taking in a Union scrum half from North Yorkshire (so it's been done) but he was too steeped in Union and didn't adapt.

How would any development officer manage to get enough kids and enough volunteers together in these places against stringent opposition from RU to form a junior RL club and who could that club go play??

Add "development officers" to "marketing" to "internationals" as another one word answer to all the games ills.

Sorry but union is a poor excuse. There's more union clubs in London and the surrounding area than North Yorkshire, so should we not bother there too? Leeds are a much bigger club than us and have much bigger resources than we do, but we can compete with union just fine.

Unfortunately there seems to be this perception in RL that if you're not from a RL town, you can't be good at RL. There could be a new Inglis/Thurston hiding in another city, but if we don't look, we don't know. The RFL ran academies in the Midlands, North east and Cumbria, but no one bothered to look. We signed a couple from the Midlands, but Cumbria and NE are too far for us.

England will never be the number one country in the world if we continue to concentrate on a small area for players and unfortunately more clubs are going now to London for players, so we become weaker. It doesn't open more areas to the game.

[londonrlfan]

They did, but the reality is they were hours away from being no more and have only existed in SL since because of his cash.

Among his many promises he always said he would not be there for ever, but he wanted to leave the club able to pay for itself. Maybe this is one promise he will keep and needs to cut expenses before he leaves the sport.

There was a lot of talk about Sale owners buying Salford, but before the new owners of Sale stepped in the previous owner quietly wrote off £15m owed to him trimmed the club so it just about was breaking even.

He too had lost interest - does anyone else see a comparison?

If the Koukash goes RL will have lost someone willing to spend/waste a lot of their money because they love RL to be replaced with big business only wanting to make a profit.

if that comes about. 5 years from now alot of people will be wishing Marwan was back!

I liked him when he first came and thought be he'd a breath of fresh air, but over time he's looked clueless and petty and Salford are no better than they were before, despite all the claims he made. It's also his hypocrisy that makes me laugh. He claims he'd make a RL a global sport, then whines about us, Toulouse and Toronto. Toronto being the most hilarious, given he wants to have an English team in the NRL. As far as I can see, he's done nothing to make the game more global but complain about other clubs daring to. He complains about Catalans having foreign players, like Salford don't have any and now he's getting rid of the academy. He may have money, but he's a poor owner.

[The Parksider]

But you're still not getting the point, that is exactly why Wakey and Cas should be growing their catchment areas. I see very little evidence of this

 

Wakey and Cas (and Fev) suffer from raids on their best players by the likes of Hull, Wigan and Leeds, so it's tough for them. The only advantage they got was when Leeds took Hardaker but had to give Fev £100,000. 

 

We have been here before and there are two issues:-

 

(1) Professional clubs cannot set up junior ARL teams

(2) Even of they could you cannot press gang players to play and dads to volunteer.

 

The issue/point you don't get with respect is that once you go south of the Calder area you hit strong Soccer territory in Barnsley, Doncaster and Sheffield.

 

Little population going east until you hit Hull. 

 

I agree it would be good if they "grew their catchment areas" but the enlargement of their area would either overlap the catchment area of other SL clubs or go into barren territory for Rugby League??

[DoubleD]

Wakey and Cas (and Fev) suffer from raids on their best players by the likes of Hull, Wigan and Leeds, so it's tough for them. The only advantage they got was when Leeds took Hardaker but had to give Fev £100,000.

We have been here before and there are two issues:-

(1) Professional clubs cannot set up junior ARL teams

(2) Even of they could you cannot press gang players to play and dads to volunteer.

The issue/point you don't get with respect is that once you go south of the Calder area you hit strong Soccer territory in Barnsley, Doncaster and Sheffield.

Little population going east until you hit Hull.

I agree it would be good if they "grew their catchment areas" but the enlargement of their area would either overlap the catchment area of other SL clubs or go into barren territory for Rugby League??

Barren RL territory is exactly what these smaller SL clubs should be targeting to expand their catchment area. Not all athletes are suited to or like football, for some RL would be ideal and it's about giving these people the opportunity to play. That's what these foundations are setup for, which is indirectly the clubs. All you have to do is look at what the All Golds have done and they don't even have the resources of a SL club

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

Just a thought, but could/should there be some criteria in place for pro clubs running academies that stipulates they must undertake X amount of development work in the local community in order to help develop the player base?

 

A common criticism that I read/hear is that pro clubs take all of the best local juniors and then significantly weaken the junior community game that helped produce them.

 

I appreciate that some pro clubs may already undertake a large amount of community and schools development work, but is this the case across the board? I.e. are there some pro clubs that just recruit players for their academies without giving anything back? In which case, should there be a minimum amount of community development work that any pro academies be required to undertake? Or is that the case already?

 

If you don't evidence this community work, then you don't get a licence to run an academy.

 

This could include development areas. E.g. if Wigan sign a junior from Birmingham, then they have to do X amount of development work in Birmingham?

[Oxford]

Did Salford not exist before he came along?

Pretty close to extinction from what bits of the story I recall!

 

But what a fascinating discussion that was with all the usual calls and agendas, very enlightening,

[DoubleD]

This will always be the case until you've got multiple teams of kids who have played the game from u6s upwards, meaning Super League clubs are being asked to sustain investment for 10 years before any potential players start popping up.

And that is exactly what is required. Too much short termism

[Saint Toppy]

If teams are reluctant to run academies then they need some sort of incentive to do it.

One way would be via an adjustment to the SC rules so that every player you bring through your own junior system only counts say 80% on the cap. Something like this would soon make clubs more willing to invest in academies

[terrywebbisgod]

If teams are reluctant to run academies then they need some sort of incentive to do it.

One way would be via an adjustment to the SC rules so that every player you bring through your own junior system only counts say 80% on the cap. Something like this would soon make clubs more willing to invest in academies

Why should SL clubs be given incentives to run academies, surely it's a pre-requisite of running a club at that level.

[DoubleD]

If teams are reluctant to run academies then they need some sort of incentive to do it.

One way would be via an adjustment to the SC rules so that every player you bring through your own junior system only counts say 80% on the cap. Something like this would soon make clubs more willing to invest in academies

I think there is something like that already

[The Parksider]

Sorry but union is a poor excuse. There's more union clubs in London and the surrounding area than North Yorkshire, so should we not bother there too? Leeds are a much bigger club than us and have much bigger resources than we do, but we can compete with union just fine.

 

 

Leeds have scouted union for decades.

 

in my RL lifetime leeds brought in John Atkinson from Roundhay RU, Keith Smith from Wakefield RU, John Bentley from Cleckheaton RU and Jim Fallon from Bath RU....Quality

 

Then the free gangway and the professionalisation of RU above RL levels came along.

 

After that Leeds struggled to attract top class RU players because they can all earn more in RU, so they try the kids like Mike Coady who they got from Doncaster RU and failed and recently Josh Walters who remains a fringe player with the jury out.

 

It's not at all true that SL clubs do not seek out RU players, they just can no longer compete salary wise for the good ones as you can see at Leeds.

 

London can't compete either, you may pick up some RU talent good enough for the Championship from the London RU player pool and be able to pay them more than a lower league RU club.

 

But let's not pretend SL clubs are ignoring a significant pool of top talent. In the same way northern amateur RL declines so does RU. There is no future Greg Inglis in northern lower level RU or the top RU clubs would have him.

[JM2010]

I think the problem is most top athletes play football and the pro clubs sweep them up into their academies at a young age so they never even get a chance to play RL

[DoubleD]

Leeds have scouted union for decades.

in my RL lifetime leeds brought in John Atkinson from Roundhay RU, Keith Smith from Wakefield RU, John Bentley from Cleckheaton RU and Jim Fallon from Bath RU....Quality

Then the free gangway and the professionalisation of RU above RL levels came along.

After that Leeds struggled to attract top class RU players because they can all earn more in RU, so they try the kids like Mike Coady who they got from Doncaster RU and failed and recently Josh Walters who remains a fringe player with the jury out.

It's not at all true that SL clubs do not seek out RU players, they just can no longer compete salary wise for the good ones as you can see at Leeds.

London can't compete either, you may pick up some RU talent good enough for the Championship from the London RU player pool and be able to pay them more than a lower league RU club.

But let's not pretend SL clubs are ignoring a significant pool of top talent. In the same way northern amateur RL declines so does RU. There is no future Greg Inglis in northern lower level RU or the top RU clubs would have him.

You do realise that league and union are 2 completely different sports?

[The Parksider]

You do realise that league and union are 2 completely different sports?

 

How can they be when many of the players are interchangeable and have been for many years.

 

Do you realise how many dual code players there have been down the years?

 

Do you realise that pre-1996 RL used to be able to attract top union players

 

Do you realise post 1996 that went into reverse and union take our players.

 

Therefore the idea Union is a sport SL clubs can look to get players is true, but they can't pay them the money union do.

[The Parksider]

Barren RL territory is exactly what these smaller SL clubs should be targeting to expand their catchment area. Not all athletes are suited to or like football, for some RL would be ideal and it's about giving these people the opportunity to play. That's what these foundations are setup for, which is indirectly the clubs. All you have to do is look at what the All Golds have done and they don't even have the resources of a SL club 

 

It's not a case of "Barren RL territory" if Cas and Wakey go north they run into Leeds, west they run into Bradford, Huddersfield and Halifax.

 

The areas devoid of much junior RL are to the east where there is very little population albeit there's an under 16 team in Selby.

 

Southwards you run into Barnsley and Sheffield and of course the Eagles have been promoting junior RL for some time against the barrier of soccer with the only real success being Hillsborough Hawks. How many of their kids are now Superleague professionals??

 

You say about there could be a new Inglis/Thurston hiding in another city, just waiting to be found, but this generally isn't the case. The reason that Super League clubs don't sign many players from the Midlands or the North East is they aren't as good as the kids clubs can sign from elsewhere. 

 

That is the main problem with wanting clubs to look elsewhere - "elsewhere" does not have enough kids playing the game to justify it. You might get lucky and find one winger/centre/prop who doesn't require quite as much rugby league knowledge to play as other positions, but nowhere near enough to justify decent investment. This will always be the case until you've got multiple teams of kids who have played the game from u6s upwards, meaning Super League clubs are being asked to sustain investment for 10 years before any potential players start popping up. 

 

It's not just "sustaining investment" kids also have to want to play and dads also have to want to volunteer to run the clubs.

 

And that is exactly what is required. Too much short termism

 

Sorry but the south Yorkshire area has had RL there for what? 30 plus years. The kids just don't go for it. I don't think your "exactly" listening to Saint1 read his lips, outside heartland RL....."not enough kids play", and are "not good enough" to "justify decent investment".

 

His post is good stuff, it outlines how Superleague professionals from the Cas/Wakey area come from the strong Junior clubs like Fev Lions, Panthers, Lock Lane, Stanley, and Eastmoor who run kids at every level and coach them well and often attract the serious kids who want a career in RL

 

They don't come from Gloucester.

 

Your posts are a bit "soundbite" and don't go into the detail of how lazy Cas and Wakey are supposed to recreate more junior clubs like Featherstone Lions, Lock Lane and Stanley Rangers in places like Sheffield and Barnsley???