Salford abandon Academy

[Oxford]

How can they be when many of the players are interchangeable and have been for many years.

 

Do you realise how many dual code players there have been down the years?

 

Do you realise that pre-1996 RL used to be able to attract top union players

 

Do you realise post 1996 that went into reverse and union take our players.

 

Therefore the idea Union is a sport SL clubs can look to get players is true, but they can't pay them the money union do.

So the answer was "No, I didn't realize they were two different sports!"

[DoubleD]

It's not a case of "Barren RL territory" if Cas and Wakey go north they run into Leeds, west they run into Bradford, Huddersfield and Halifax.

The areas devoid of much junior RL are to the east where there is very little population albeit there's an under 16 team in Selby.

Southwards you run into Barnsley and Sheffield and of course the Eagles have been promoting junior RL for some time against the barrier of soccer with the only real success being Hillsborough Hawks. How many of their kids are now Superleague professionals??

It's not just "sustaining investment" kids also have to want to play and dads also have to want to volunteer to run the clubs.

Sorry but the south Yorkshire area has had RL there for what? 30 plus years. The kids just don't go for it. I don't think your "exactly" listening to Saint1 read his lips, outside heartland RL....."not enough kids play", and are "not good enough" to "justify decent investment".

His post is good stuff, it outlines how Superleague professionals from the Cas/Wakey area come from the strong Junior clubs like Fev Lions, Panthers, Lock Lane, Stanley, and Eastmoor who run kids at every level and coach them well and often attract the serious kids who want a career in RL

They don't come from Gloucester.

Your posts are a bit "soundbite" and don't go into the detail of how lazy Cas and Wakey are supposed to recreate more junior clubs like Featherstone Lions, Lock Lane and Stanley Rangers in places like Sheffield and Barnsley???

And how long have the All Golds been going? Clearly you're not going to see the fruits of the labour yet but they're already creating plenty for their own team.

Yet again you miss the point Londonrlfan makes. Despite the significant competition from other sports such as union and football, they're still churning out RL players, doing the hard yards for the lazy SL clubs to pick them up.

[The Parksider]

And how long have the All Golds been going? Clearly you're not going to see the fruits of the labour yet but they're already creating plenty for their own team.

Yet again you miss the point Londonrlfan makes. Despite the significant competition from other sports such as union and football, they're still churning out RL players, doing the hard yards for the lazy SL clubs to pick them up.

 

I'll deal with London Fan's point when I get time to look iy up.

 

On Gloucester it's fine that a third tier club can produce players good enough to play that level from non RL areas, but you fail to deal with any of the points I make about how can Lazy Cas and Wakey expand their own player production by branching out into areas with little population or areas with little interest??

 

We simply do not have a player shortage per se, the thread is about a shortage of home grown quality professionals, that Gloucester can develop a player to play third tier isn't much proof of anything. It's third tier.

 

That Oxford and Hemel have failed to do so and now have had to look north for a team (and Hemel have been around promoting RL to kids for many years) shows that it's generally very hard for clubs outside the north to grow the player base even to third tier levels

 

Your Gloucester point is a bad one, your failure to deal with my points on Cas and Wakefield are telling. 

[OMEGA]

OK

Some simple maths

Scholarship U16s (year 10 & year 11) are only allowed up to 20 players per age group.

Most clubs don't fully subscribe and have around 35 players in total rather than the allowed 40.

At present, of the 12 SL clubs, 1 is from France leaving us with a potential 11 Scholarships, however, Leigh have just been promoted and don't run a Youth system and Salford have just scrapped theirs leaving us with 9.

9 X 35 = 315

That's across two year groups so approx 158 per year

In this country, one of the major Rugby League playing nations in the world, we have just 158 players in and elite training programme, which is shockingly low.

Worldwide, statistically 1in 17 young 15 & 16 year olds entering elite sporting Academies makes it to professional status within the top division of their chosen sport.

That means we can expect approximately 15 or 16 players per year to make it at SL level

With player production levels at that level Rugby League cannot survive !

Sobering thought for those who run our game!

[Lowdesert]

Leeds have scouted union for decades.

 

in my RL lifetime leeds brought in John Atkinson from Roundhay RU, Keith Smith from Wakefield RU, John Bentley from Cleckheaton RU and Jim Fallon from Bath RU....Quality

 

Then the free gangway and the professionalisation of RU above RL levels came along.

 

After that Leeds struggled to attract top class RU players because they can all earn more in RU, so they try the kids like Mike Coady who they got from Doncaster RU and failed and recently Josh Walters who remains a fringe player with the jury out.

 

It's not at all true that SL clubs do not seek out RU players, they just can no longer compete salary wise for the good ones as you can see at Leeds.

 

London can't compete either, you may pick up some RU talent good enough for the Championship from the London RU player pool and be able to pay them more than a lower league RU club.

 

But let's not pretend SL clubs are ignoring a significant pool of top talent. In the same way northern amateur RL declines so does RU. There is no future Greg Inglis in northern lower level RU or the top RU clubs would have him.

John Gallagher?

[TaxiEgg]

So do we have to look at something different than a system that clears does not bear fruit ?

[Angelic Cynic]

Southwards you run into Barnsley and Sheffield and of course the Eagles have been promoting junior RL for some time against the barrier of soccer with the only real success being Hillsborough Hawks. How many of their kids are now Superleague professionals??

 

     http://www.pitchero.com/clubs/dearnevalleybulldogs

 

 

    http://www.rugby-league.com/article/38699/meet-said-jamal?tag=Castleford

[DoubleD]

I'll deal with London Fan's point when I get time to look iy up.

On Gloucester it's fine that a third tier club can produce players good enough to play that level from non RL areas, but you fail to deal with any of the points I make about how can Lazy Cas and Wakey expand their own player production by branching out into areas with little population or areas with little interest??

We simply do not have a player shortage per se, the thread is about a shortage of home grown quality professionals, that Gloucester can develop a player to play third tier isn't much proof of anything. It's third tier.

That Oxford and Hemel have failed to do so and now have had to look north for a team (and Hemel have been around promoting RL to kids for many years) shows that it's generally very hard for clubs outside the north to grow the player base even to third tier levels

Your Gloucester point is a bad one, your failure to deal with my points on Cas and Wakefield are telling.

Yet again Parky, you fail to see the wood from the trees. No wonder so many people block you. And I thought we were finally getting somewhere in our education of you but alas you keep returning to type. Some people are just a lost cause........

[JM2010]

So do we have to look at something different than a system that clears does not bear fruit ?

What would you suggest? You have a good understanding of the game especially at grassroots level

[DoubleD]

Of course there is Saint but you need to give these things time to develop, they've only been going a handful of years ffs, hardly going to produce SL players overnight

[Hvy wg]

Salford abandon the academy and are trying to buy Todd Carney.  



 

[USRLFAN]

Hvy wg, on 23 Oct 2016 - 3:57 PM, said:

Salford abandon the academy and are trying to buy Todd Carney.  

 

Salford are the bad boys of SL.  It's almost as if they are devils!

[The Parksider]

Yet again Parky, you fail to see the wood from the trees. No wonder so many people block you. And I thought we were finally getting somewhere in our education of you but alas you keep returning to type. Some people are just a lost cause........

 

Nothing in that post is about junior player development. Nothing in that post discusses the various aspects of  an important subject that other posters are kindly putting forward, Your idea the the only problem we have is SL clubs are just lazy and that Wakey and Cas just need to enlarge their catchment areas was naive, and you've dropped the idea when challenged and decided to post that so I'll take it you concede my point. 

[DoubleD]

Nothing in that post is about junior player development. Nothing in that post discusses the various aspects of an important subject that other posters are kindly putting forward, Your idea the the only problem we have is SL clubs are just lazy and that Wakey and Cas just need to enlarge their catchment areas was naive, and you've dropped the idea when challenged and decided to post that so I'll take it you concede my point.

The fact you still can't see it when it's right in front of you makes it even funnier! There's just no hope for some people. You've offered nothing of substance whatsoever

[The Parksider]

Of course there is Saint but you need to give these things time to develop, they've only been going a handful of years ffs, hardly going to produce SL players overnight

 

The problem is that the junior game isn't "developing" and year on year getting bigger and thereby producing more and more professionals. Have a look at the Yorkshire junior league that has about 37 teams at Under 15 across west Yorkshire.

 

Many have been around for years but many have it all on to get a team on the pitch. Selby (your "expansion" club) failed to fulfil their fixtures.

 

The reality is that there are clubs that have some sort of a production line that attract the better kids and they go on to Academy.In Leeds it's Stanningley, Milford, Easts, Parkside and Warriors, In Cas it's Lock Lane and Panthers, in Wakey it's Stanley and Eastmoor, then there's Fev Lions.

 

As has been pointed out again and again there is no real ring fencing. SL scouts will be on the touchline at all these clubs. A good player emerges and straight away scouts from Fartown, Leeds, Wakey, Cas, and Bradford will all be vying for his signature to their academy.

 

But they may all be "unlucky", you may remember the Wakefield lads who signed on at Wigan academy the other year, you may take into account Hull are not averse to scouting around the Calder area for such as Tom Briscoe.

 

Wakey have it tough, Cas have it tough. Yet you think they are just lazy??

 

You'd do well to heed Saint 1 who has it bang on right, we are low on numbers and no junior clubs are not all "developing" over time towards "producing super league players" they are in many cases struggling just to get teams on the pitch. And as Steve Gill says the numbers playing around Cas are going down.

[The Parksider]

So do we have to look at something different than a system that clears does not bear fruit ?

 

It does bear fruit. just not enough quality fruit hence the quality of our players is below that of players down under, and so English clubs import half a dozen each of their spare players.

 

Hull & HKR combined to reduce the quantity for quality locally, hopefully they will stop scouting West Yorkshire!  Salford's withdrawal will also remove the "quantity" and up the quality.

 

A smaller academy league won't change much apart from reducing the expense, and reducing the numbers of lads taken on just to make numbers up.

 

Even with an academy Salford and HKR were still recruiting heavily from a. Overseas and b. Cast off players from top clubs. 

[JM2010]

From what I remember from the Embed The Pathway presentation I went to, the odds are a lot better for Super League - I think it was an average of 3 a year of those signed at u16s go on to play Super League. The problem is that there isn't enough (regular) players at the base of the pyramid, meaning a lot of those signed at u16s are pretty unlikely to ever make it, instead being signed to pad out the team for the couple who are.

Some SL academies outside of the bigger clubs just aren't productive enough and are having to sign players who aren't going to be good enough for SL but are needed to run a squad. This puts unnecessary costs on the club and is having a detrimental effect on the amateur game.

What if clubs such as Salford who don't see the benefit of an academy could approach another SL club nearby and ask for a set number of places in their Academy squad for their young players. Or to go one step further and merge academies with a club in a similar situation (like the Hull Academy). This would mean that less players would be taken out of the amateur game and only the players who actually have a chance of progressing would be signed.It would also cut costs for these clubs which could be used for development in there area. The standard of the Academy competition would also improve as the teams should be a higher standard.

There would be less players getting released at the end of their time in academy and they would be of a better standard than previously so hopefully they could be signed by lower league clubs

[The Parksider]

Some SL academies outside of the bigger clubs just aren't productive enough and are having to sign players who aren't going to be good enough for SL but are needed to run a squad. This puts unnecessary costs on the club and is having a detrimental effect on the amateur game.

What if clubs such as Salford who don't see the benefit of an academy could approach another SL club nearby and ask for a set number of places in their Academy squad for their young players. Or to go one step further and merge academies with a club in a similar situation (like the Hull Academy). This would mean that less players would be taken out of the amateur game and only the players who actually have a chance of progressing would be signed.It would also cut costs for these clubs which could be used for development in there area. The standard of the Academy competition would also improve as the teams should be a higher standard.

There would be less players getting released at the end of their time in academy and they would be of a better standard than previously so hopefully they could be signed by lower league clubs

 

Great idea albeit costs may have to be saved to pay for more travel if Toulouse join the academy with Catalans......

[The Parksider]

John Gallagher?

 

Craig Innes....

 

Your go.

[JM2010]

Great idea albeit costs may have to be saved to pay for more travel if Toulouse join the academy with Catalans......

I hope Toulouse do join but the costs for teams needs to be looked at

[Lowdesert]

Craig Innes....

 

Your go.

No. watching JG was enough for me thanks.

[Oxford]

Nothing in that post is about junior player development. Nothing in that post discusses the various aspects of  an important subject that other posters are kindly putting forward, Your idea the the only problem we have is SL clubs are just lazy and that Wakey and Cas just need to enlarge their catchment areas was naive, and you've dropped the idea when challenged and decided to post that so I'll take it you concede my point. 

The question of junior development should be one of the highest on the agendas throughout the game. But when the RFL reduce the monies for academies to £50K when it costs a lot more than that to run them questions about where best to put what money you have available are bound to be  asked at every club but the richest ones.

 

To be honest Parky your list of yoonion successes would look insignificant compared to the number of ne'er do wells, failures and con men who came out of that sport. We all have wonderful memories of the ones that did well but the number and investment never married up and only rich clubs and wealthy owners delusions kept it going as long as it did.

 

The truth is the top clubs will always win in this respect because , well ..... they're the top clubs, Still! Which blows a hole in the idea that the salary cap makes it a level playing field as well.

 

Now if the lower clubs recieved more money than the top clubs each season and we had a draft system in place we might be talking.

 

But the Salford situation isn't about the under 19's it's about not enough bums on seats and not much else.

[Saint Toppy]

 

Now if the lower clubs recieved more money than the top clubs each season and we had a draft system in place we might be talking.

 

 

A draft from where exactly ?

We don't have a collage football system like the NFL or are you suggesting we have a draft system where the bottom clubs can just go in and take whatever youngsters they like from the top clubs academies each year, therefore penalising the clubs who invest in youth and reward the ones who can't be arsed like Salford ?

If its the latter then the whole academy system would cease to exist almost overnight as no club would invest in youngsters to see them then be taken by someone else  

[Oxford]

A draft from where exactly ?

We don't have a collage football system like the NFL or are you suggesting we have a draft system where the bottom clubs can just go in and take whatever youngsters they like from the top clubs academies each year, therefore penalising the clubs who invest in youth and reward the ones who can't be arsed like Salford ?

If its the latter then the whole academy system would cease to exist almost overnight as no club would invest in youngsters to see them then be taken by someone else  

1 million and 1 reasons for keeping top clubs at the top and leaving everyone else to flounder, nice.

 

This was a t least a suggestion towards changing the status quo, all well and good to disagree, no problem there but solutions?

 

I think when those academies have no one to play there won't be much point anyway.

[TaxiEgg]

What would you suggest? You have a good understanding of the game especially at grassroots level

Personally I would scrap the scholarships and leave the players with their Amatuer clubs until their 17 th Birthday .

The pro clubs to work with the community clubs on coach development and improving the delivery at local level .

Revert back to a town team type competition where the community and the pro clubs work together on developing and identifying the talented players allowing for the players to develop both physically and mentally .