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The Future is League

Wayne Bennetts future decided on several issues

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On 11/11/2019 at 13:30, The Future is League said:

How long has Rugby League been played in Salford?

How long has Rugby League been played in London?

How long has Rugby League been played in Newcastle?

Irrelevant

irrelevant

Irrelevant

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26 minutes ago, Denton Rovers RLFC said:

how many players does each academy produce to SL or CH level should be more of an indicator, the joint CoHA was meant to reduce costs/shared facilities whilst still having similar number of players AFAICT. 

The actuality is that Hull is in fact smaller than the Wakefield and Wigan metropolitan areas' and indeed Warrington Borough is only a handful of thousand smaller than Hull too, so in reality we punch above our weight having two SL teams in an area that isn't by any stretch well off. Yyes rugby has been around for over 150 years in FCs case but that is meaningless, it's what is currently happening, what money there is now and where a club prioritises that money. 

A lot of fans want to go back to separate academies but honestly, the finances are being propped up at HKR by the council and crash for cash and FC are just about staying head above water.

 

As for Bennett, outstayed his welcome and by 2 years already, blew the chance of winning the WC with some terrible decision making. Sinfield isn't worth 10% of whatever he's been paid, a mouthpiece yes man, when he gets his beak out of Bennett's orifice he can go do one as well, what does he actually bring/do for his money?? Clearly incapable of grasping that certain players missing is not an excuse, especially when best case they were already on the wane in any case, failed to bring through and play players who should have been there in 2017, never mind 2019, ignores the outstanding efforts of some players and the poor performances of the golden children ever mind his exceptionally poor positioning of said players.

The way things are it's the first time in a long time were I've thought, do you know what, I'm not enthused to go to the next lot of home internationals because we are dog do and look like a team run by a Saturday pub team coach who has no players to choose from because half of them are doing a shift down t' local factory.

Sitting on the fence then i see?

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Lose by 6 in a World Cup final in Australia

Beat NZ in a test series

All going well.

Lose a couple of games on a poorly organized tour and it's major overhaul time.

Should we be looking to produce more players? Of course. Sadly, we don't have the resources as a sport to invest more in participation and then well funded coaching for this expanded participation base. Unless that happens it's not going to improve.

So can we improve the players we do attract? Yes, probably. I don't think the coaching kids get in the UK is as good as they get in Australia. More money required for better facilities and coaching education. 

There is a workaround to this, which has been happening organically anyway. Get more of our players in NRL systems from an early age. We've seen that improve us in the past few year to the point where we are very competitive when we don't have injuries. The problem of depth requires a big increase in funding and change to how the sport is viewed in the UK.

As we are now, I think we do well to get there and compete as a minority sport in the UK. 

Bennett was great but seems to have run his race. Powell would be my vote to give us the best chance of victory next year against an Australia team who must also be having a major overhaul of their whole system after losing to Tonga by a similar scoreline to GB.

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Formerly Alistair Boyd-Meaney

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I never would have appointed him but I’d have sacked him after his first week when he started trying to persuade a host of has been Australians to make themselves available for England. The Morris twins, Trent Hodgkinson, Chris Heighington, Chris McQueen to name most of them.

He then went on to ignore the form of Super League based players in favour of NRL players because he doesn’t rate Super League.

He asked where we’ve been hiding Tommy Makinson despite Makinson being outstanding for nearly a decade at one of Super Leagues top clubs. Then he has to ask Tom Johnstone who he is when he turned up for England training last year. Totally disrespectful and ignorant!

His treatment of Mark Percival has also been poor.

His safety first tactics have also seen in form players overlooked because he wants to play money ball with his selection processes.

Don't throw the World Cup in as an argument, he had the best England team for a while at his disposal and was up against a poor Australian team. Once again his conservative selections meant we were missing a more attacking edge and we missed out on a superb opportunity to end the drought. Some will be happy with a 6-0 loss but for me it was thrown away under Bennett.

We've now got Australians playing for Great Britain, no disrespect to them but it’s a travesty that they’ve been selected. It pi**es on the tradition of the Lions of the past and cheapens the honour.

Last but not least, Bennett’s truculent demeanour with the press which was downright disrespectful and rude at times is totally unacceptable anywhere but in the U.K. it’s also very very damaging to the sport! The NRL may well get away with it and they’d still get 8 pages of coverage in the National newspapers. Here in the UK we can’t afford to alienate the press and its reporters, doesn’t he understand that!

Bennett’s been a genius Coach at domestic level, one of the best ever but the  blokes rep record is average at best. He’s had charge of two of World sports most dominant representative teams in Queensland & Australia but other coaches have a far better win/loss record than him.

He should never have been appointed and now he needs to go, taking Sinfield with him!

Edited by OMEGA
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1 hour ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

Lose by 6 in a World Cup final in Australia

Beat NZ in a test series

All going well.

Lose a couple of games on a poorly organized tour and it's major overhaul time.

Should we be looking to produce more players? Of course. Sadly, we don't have the resources as a sport to invest more in participation and then well funded coaching for this expanded participation base. Unless that happens it's not going to improve.

So can we improve the players we do attract? Yes, probably. I don't think the coaching kids get in the UK is as good as they get in Australia. More money required for better facilities and coaching education. 

There is a workaround to this, which has been happening organically anyway. Get more of our players in NRL systems from an early age. We've seen that improve us in the past few year to the point where we are very competitive when we don't have injuries. The problem of depth requires a big increase in funding and change to how the sport is viewed in the UK.

As we are now, I think we do well to get there and compete as a minority sport in the UK. 

Bennett was great but seems to have run his race. Powell would be my vote to give us the best chance of victory next year against an Australia team who must also be having a major overhaul of their whole system after losing to Tonga by a similar scoreline to GB.

We did lose 34-0 in the last test too unless you missed that. So it is 0-34, 6-14, 8-12, 8-23. Points scored 20, points conceded 83. Hardly lose a couple of games. We have played 5 halves of rugby out of the last 8 and haven't scored a try.

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1 minute ago, Scubby said:

We did lose 34-0 in the last test too unless you missed that. So it is 0-34, 6-14, 8-12, 8-23. Points scored 20, points conceded 83. Hardly lose a couple of games. We have played 5 halves of rugby out of the last 8 and haven't scored a try.

No I didn't miss that but thanks for reminding me. That scoreline was a little misleading too, we had a few tries disallowed and were a lot better than the score suggests but yes it clearly wasn't a great individual result.

Anyway, my point is we have good players and this seems to be a form/selection thing which is probably why Bennett should take some of the blame. I don't buy into the systemic crisis reaction and those issues that are systemic aren't going to remedy themselves in the near future.

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7 minutes ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

No I didn't miss that but thanks for reminding me. That scoreline was a little misleading too, we had a few tries disallowed and were a lot better than the score suggests but yes it clearly wasn't a great individual result.

Anyway, my point is we have good players and this seems to be a form/selection thing which is probably why Bennett should take some of the blame. I don't buy into the systemic crisis reaction and those issues that are systemic aren't going to remedy themselves in the near future.

We have good players, but not enough.

And not on certain positions. 

Next year should have been all out for the first ashes victory in decades providing a huge boost for the 2021 WC. 

As it is we dont have any halves, any centres, nobody really demanding the fullback shirt, a few options at hooker but our best option is still roby and he is an old man now.

We have no centres worthy of consideration. Only the hope a full off season gets Watkins back to his best.

We have no SL produced halves who can do it either, we have to hope Widdop takes a huge step forward which at his age is unlikely and Gale who hasnt played in 2 years comes back better than he has every been. Outside of that we are scratching around.

And it's not that we aren't good enough now and we are a building side, we are in a win-now position and losing. 

Our great young Hopes, the likes of Smithies, walker, newman, trueman, Lees cant all be dumped in at once. 

 

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13 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

We have good players, but not enough.

And not on certain positions. 

Next year should have been all out for the first ashes victory in decades providing a huge boost for the 2021 WC. 

As it is we dont have any halves, any centres, nobody really demanding the fullback shirt, a few options at hooker but our best option is still roby and he is an old man now.

We have no centres worthy of consideration. Only the hope a full off season gets Watkins back to his best.

We have no SL produced halves who can do it either, we have to hope Widdop takes a huge step forward which at his age is unlikely and Gale who hasnt played in 2 years comes back better than he has every been. Outside of that we are scratching around.

And it's not that we aren't good enough now and we are a building side, we are in a win-now position and losing. 

Our great young Hopes, the likes of Smithies, walker, newman, trueman, Lees cant all be dumped in at once. 

 

Depth is a problem yes.

Widdop was the best half in the NRL 2 years ago, he's been injured most of the season and hasn't had much to work with this year. We've struggled for centres for a while now and I think Watkins, who was our only world class centre, is done now. Our best bet there is that Percival kicks on a notch along with Connor and Gildart. I don't think those 3 are far off being good international players. I mean Connor and Gildart looked very good last year and Percival has been unlucky with opportunities at international level so it's not a lost cause.

If you look a little further back we had some good centres in Keith Senior and Martin Gleeson with decent players like Yeaman as back-up. We were not overly blessed with dummy halves or wingers at the time. The game where we won in Australia we had Gaz Raynor on the wing and I think Lee Gilmore was filling in on the other at some point (both scored mind). We produce good players but not always in the same positions, there is a little bit of pot luck to it. Full back has been a problem since the role changed though, whereas we seem to produce a lot of good front and back rowers.

At our current rate of producing players and the environment they develop in, it feels like we have between 1 and 3 good players for each position, and by that I include positions where you have 2 of them e.g. we may only have one good winger for 2 wing spots. I dont think that will change anytime soon given the changes that would be needed in increasing participation and development. Our best hope is to get more kids in the NRL system like Herbie Farnsworth plus more players from all positions in the NRL in general.

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Anyone who saw Souths this season will realise he's hellbent on the turgid style. He's relied of individual excellence with big forwards and Cook out of dummy half with Reynolds kicking game and Walker's flashes of brilliance.

His style has ultimately been found out this year though, without Inglis, and the Burgess brothers below their best, they haven't had as dominant pack and that has limited their ability. I think they will decline further next year too

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15 minutes ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

Depth is a problem yes.

Widdop was the best half in the NRL 2 years ago, he's been injured most of the season and hasn't had much to work with this year. We've struggled for centres for a while now and I think Watkins, who was our only world class centre, is done now. Our best bet there is that Percival kicks on a notch along with Connor and Gildart. I don't think those 3 are far off being good international players. I mean Connor and Gildart looked very good last year and Percival has been unlucky with opportunities at international level so it's not a lost cause.

If you look a little further back we had some good centres in Keith Senior and Martin Gleeson with decent players like Yeaman as back-up. We were not overly blessed with dummy halves or wingers at the time. The game where we won in Australia we had Gaz Raynor on the wing and I think Lee Gilmore was filling in on the other at some point (both scored mind). We produce good players but not always in the same positions, there is a little bit of pot luck to it. Full back has been a problem since the role changed though, whereas we seem to produce a lot of good front and back rowers.

At our current rate of producing players and the environment they develop in, it feels like we have between 1 and 3 good players for each position, and by that I include positions where you have 2 of them e.g. we may only have one good winger for 2 wing spots. I dont think that will change anytime soon given the changes that would be needed in increasing participation and development. Our best hope is to get more kids in the NRL system like Herbie Farnsworth plus more players from all positions in the NRL in general.

I dont disagree with a lot of it, but that is bad. It's not enough, it's not enough to win an ashes series or world cup. 

Its not even enough to be the third best team in the world anymore.

It's not that we are getting worse, we arent, it's that the NRL and by virtue of that the southern hemisphere are getting better at such a faster rate than we are we. 

And those young players we hope kick on, arent young. They are mid-career at best. Jake Connor and mark percival are 25, how many backs take that step up at 25? 

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1 hour ago, scotchy1 said:

I dont disagree with a lot of it, but that is bad. It's not enough, it's not enough to win an ashes series or world cup. 

Its not even enough to be the third best team in the world anymore.

It's not that we are getting worse, we arent, it's that the NRL and by virtue of that the southern hemisphere are getting better at such a faster rate than we are we. 

And those young players we hope kick on, arent young. They are mid-career at best. Jake Connor and mark percival are 25, how many backs take that step up at 25? 

I don't think Jake Connor and Mark Percival are far off. Connor was great last season but hasn't been quite as good this year and Percival hasn't had much of a chance to prove he is international class. Two great examples of players I think would improve a great deal if they went to the NRL. We beat NZ fairly convincingly last year. It doesn't hurt the sport if teams beat each other at the elite level. NZ were better this year for a number of reasons but it's not like those horrible late turn of the century years when we would get pumped by 70. That was a problem.

I think we're just about where you'd expect. challenging to be 2nd best team with the off chance of beating the only team with the depth and resources to be consistently number one now and again if everything falls into place for a brief period.

Edited by Tex Evans Thigh
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8 hours ago, Denton Rovers RLFC said:

Irrelevant

irrelevant

Irrelevant

You are so wrong.

How can a club that has played Rugby League for over 120 years and playing in Super League not have an academy. What are they bring to Super League if not young players because they certainly don't bring fans.

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On 12/11/2019 at 09:47, The Future is League said:

Having plastic teams offers zero growth for Rugby League

Perhap's that should be taken into consideration when people champion Toronto, Ottawa, New York etc, with the best will in the world in the participation gains the game will see nothing at all for a very very long time even if ever at all from across the Atlantic, how else but 'plastic' can they be described.

The British Rugby League is actually standing on a precipice at the moment, decisions need to be taken to implement and improove participation levels very quickly, a step in the wrong direction or doing nothing at all will speed up an already declining sport to self- destruction, people can adopt the 'ostrich' effect if they wish but the problem ain't going to go away action needs taking, pinning hopes on establishing teams in North America to 'grow' the sport in that these teams can only depend on others to provide playing rosters is not the way to go and moreso especially if these teams replace established ones from our League being one's who actually can and do provide player's into the system. 

Now I know all the 'expansionists' are going to go off on one again, but it really isn't expansion is it, it is a drain on already depleting resources, now if the 'Toronto' and any other newcomers handout was put into grass roots over here plus a handsome levy for not developing player's that would be worthwhile, I would also say that teams over here who do not provide a pathway for talent should also be subjected to a reduction in their 'handout' and awarded to the grass roots as a means of assisting player development.

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31 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Perhap's that should be taken into consideration when people champion Toronto, Ottawa, New York etc, with the best will in the world in the participation gains the game will see nothing at all for a very very long time even if ever at all from across the Atlantic, how else but 'plastic' can they be described.

The British Rugby League is actually standing on a precipice at the moment, decisions need to be taken to implement and improove participation levels very quickly, a step in the wrong direction or doing nothing at all will speed up an already declining sport to self- destruction, people can adopt the 'ostrich' effect if they wish but the problem ain't going to go away action needs taking, pinning hopes on establishing teams in North America to 'grow' the sport in that these teams can only depend on others to provide playing rosters is not the way to go and moreso especially if these teams replace established ones from our League being one's who actually can and do provide player's into the system. 

Now I know all the 'expansionists' are going to go off on one again, but it really isn't expansion is it, it is a drain on already depleting resources, now if the 'Toronto' and any other newcomers handout was put into grass roots over here plus a handsome levy for not developing player's that would be worthwhile, I would also say that teams over here who do not provide a pathway for talent should also be subjected to a reduction in their 'handout' and awarded to the grass roots as a means of assisting player development.

How long have Toronto had a Rugby League team?

How many years has Rugby League been played in Ireland, Scotland and Wales?

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Aaaaand another thread turns into toronto bashing ffs!!

Wayne Bennet.. go or stay?

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14 hours ago, The Future is League said:

How long have Toronto had a Rugby League team?

How many years has Rugby League been played in Ireland, Scotland and Wales?

That has nothing to do with what I am getting at Future, I am saying the game is in crisis on the development side of it, North American teams will not alleviate the problem it will only exasperate it by it's dependency of using our already depleted player resources and not having the ability to add to the pool, and even moreso if NA teams replace clubs who do provide player's.

Simple question Future, how familiar are you with the Amatuer/Community side of our game, do you attend? have you witnessed how it has declined in the last 10 years in participating numbers in open age, youth and kids, it really is a massive problem that is getting worse each season, unless there is a concerted effort put in to address it the game in the UK will not carry on as we know it.

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2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

That has nothing to do with what I am getting at Future, I am saying the game is in crisis on the development side of it, North American teams will not alleviate the problem it will only exasperate it by it's dependency of using our already depleted player resources and not having the ability to add to the pool, and even moreso if NA teams replace clubs who do provide player's.

Simple question Future, how familiar are you with the Amatuer/Community side of our game, do you attend? have you witnessed how it has declined in the last 10 years in participating numbers in open age, youth and kids, it really is a massive problem that is getting worse each season, unless there is a concerted effort put in to address it the game in the UK will not carry on as we know it.

It has everything to do with it.

OK I'm out of this debate now as you find it very hard to accept facts.

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