Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
marklaspalmas

2020 1895 Cup

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Income. You don’t get that with the 1895 Cup. There’s no guarantee that you’ll get a home tie. You could end up with (another) trip to Cumbria, which comes at a hefty cost and then there’s potential for midweek games should you progress, which then brings into question the availability of players. Yeah, other sports do it, I know, but not from West Wales to deepest Cumbria on a Wednesday night, 72 hours after an 80 minute game in say, Newcastle. 

If there was a way in which you could guarantee teams home games and income then I think you’d get more takers. 

How about you sponsor the competition Hela? £20k to everyone who gets knocked out in R1, £40k round 2 and so one - that would make it attractive to all teams, you could possibly lay on flights for the teams too?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, marklaspalmas said:

I do have sympathy with development clubs who don't have local talent to draw on to bolster squad size and gave long distance travelling to do to the so-called heartlands but you are making excuses for a rugby league club not playing rugby league. Skolars play what? 12 home games a year? And say no thanks to a tasty game v a famous name Chamionship side because they might get injuries? No. I don't see the logic.

Not picking on Skolars. They have more of an excuse thsn Hunslet or Workington, but this is poor stuff.

Try running a rugby league club in London. The club isn’t just supporting its self - it’s flying the flag for RL with almost no support. We have to make choices. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The main problem I have is the picking and choosing of what comps you want to enter. Bradford ultimately last year played their under 19s which I don't blame them. It could become a reserves comp in theory especially being midweek. But if you win a couple of games in that and a couple in challenge cup you could have played 4 more times than Toulouse going into the playoffs. I think either everyone is in or scrap it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's a real lack of understanding of what is takes to run a semi pro club in this thread. Say Skolars or the Bears draw an away trip to Cumbria (I know the same is true for teams in Cumbria getting an away draw) they have to pay all their players plus travel expenses which are significant. Why would you throw away a few thousand pounds when you are on a tight budget with no chance of prize money? Even if you get a home draw the lack of interest from fans means you will lose money anyway. It is literally throwing money away. Until clubs get some incentives for entering the Cup then they won't do so, simple as that. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, OriginalMrC said:

There's a real lack of understanding of what is takes to run a semi pro club in this thread. Say Skolars or the Bears draw an away trip to Cumbria (I know the same is true for teams in Cumbria getting an away draw) they have to pay all their players plus travel expenses which are significant. Why would you throw away a few thousand pounds when you are on a tight budget with no chance of prize money? Even if you get a home draw the lack of interest from fans means you will lose money anyway. It is literally throwing money away. Until clubs get some incentives for entering the Cup then they won't do so, simple as that. 

Which is one reason to knock it on the head and call it a day. A good idea in principle but not practical. One cup comp is enough 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, HarrogateKnights said:

Which is one reason to knock it on the head and call it a day. A good idea in principle but not practical. One cup comp is enough 

If enough clubs are happy to enter I say - go for it but we need to understand why clubs don’t and why some put out a reserve team something many clubs don’t have the luxury of. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Eddie said:

How about you sponsor the competition Hela? £20k to everyone who gets knocked out in R1, £40k round 2 and so one - that would make it attractive to all teams, you could possibly lay on flights for the teams too?

I’m not sure what your point is. Currently there is no guaranteed income and no prize money for sides, that will play a part in some deciding they don’t want to take part. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, EssexRL said:

Try running a rugby league club in London. The club isn’t just supporting its self - it’s flying the flag for RL with almost no support. We have to make choices. 

I see that of course. I know Hector and have seen plenty of matches at New River. It's been a long struggle and all credit to the club which I want to sound in no way patronising . However, choosing not to even compete is very disappointing. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, OriginalMrC said:

There's a real lack of understanding of what is takes to run a semi pro club in this thread. Say Skolars or the Bears draw an away trip to Cumbria (I know the same is true for teams in Cumbria getting an away draw) they have to pay all their players plus travel expenses which are significant. Why would you throw away a few thousand pounds when you are on a tight budget with no chance of prize money? Even if you get a home draw the lack of interest from fans means you will lose money anyway. It is literally throwing money away. Until clubs get some incentives for entering the Cup then they won't do so, simple as that. 

Speaking for myself, there is no lack of understanding. But follow the logic of your grim  pessimism. What's the point of playing any games at all if it's only long bus rides, losing money and risking injury?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, EssexRL said:

If enough clubs are happy to enter I say - go for it but we need to understand why clubs don’t and why some put out a reserve team something many clubs don’t have the luxury of. 

Is there any club outside SL with  a reserve team?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, marklaspalmas said:

Speaking for myself, there is no lack of understanding. But follow the logic of your grim  pessimism. What's the point of playing any games at all if it's only long bus rides, losing money and risking injury?

If you understand then you'll know that sports clubs are businesses. They receive suitable recompense or incentives to play in other competitions. Other competitions also have better structures, and considerably more prestige than the 1895 Cup. People who criticise clubs for pulling out would also be the first to criticise those clubs of they overstretched themselves financially. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, OriginalMrC said:

If you understand then you'll know that sports clubs are businesses. They receive suitable recompense or incentives to play in other competitions. Other competitions also have better structures, and considerably more prestige than the 1895 Cup. People who criticise clubs for pulling out would also be the first to criticise those clubs of they overstretched themselves 

Now you have helpfully explained to me that clubs are businesses we can logically assume these clubs have taken a business decision. As neither of us are privy to their accounts we'll also assume their decision is sound. I am not debating that. What I am saying is that if this is how a club thinks, operates and acts about it's sole/core activity, then essentially it's stuffed. Our only raison d'etre is to play RL but now that is too much effort/money/inconvenience.

You speak of competitions having structure and prestige. These clubs are sabotaging attempts to give this comp those things. The 1895 cup had plenty of well documented problems in its first year anyway.

"People who criticise...." etc, not true. I can criticise whilst bearing in mind the constraints under which clubs operate, thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not that there is a great sample size but Toronto (didn’t compete), Toulouse (didn’t compete), York (played two games in the 1895 Cup), Leigh (Semi-Finalists) and Fev (lost in their opening game of the 1895 Cup) made up the play-off places in the Championship in 2019. York and Leigh, the two who went the ‘furthest’ in the 1895 Cup lost at the first hurdle in the play-off’s. 

But still, a twenty-seven game season isn’t long enough for some. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, marklaspalmas said:

Now you have helpfully explained to me that clubs are businesses we can logically assume these clubs have taken a business decision. As neither of us are privy to their accounts we'll also assume their decision is sound. I am not debating that. What I am saying is that if this is how a club thinks, operates and acts about it's sole/core activity, then essentially it's stuffed. Our only raison d'etre is to play RL but now that is too much effort/money/inconvenience.

You speak of competitions having structure and prestige. These clubs are sabotaging attempts to give this comp those things. The 1895 cup had plenty of well documented problems in its first year anyway.

"People who criticise...." etc, not true. I can criticise whilst bearing in mind the constraints under which clubs operate, thanks.

You say you understand and then completely miss the point. This is not a simple black and white issue. Let's say as a club owner you could pay for better training facilities, run an extra junior team, or play in the 1895 Cup what would you choose? Clubs have many different decisions to make and throwing money away when it could be better spent elsewhere is one that some clubs don't want to make. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, OriginalMrC said:

You say you understand and then completely miss the point. This is not a simple black and white issue. Let's say as a club owner you could pay for better training facilities, run an extra junior team, or play in the 1895 Cup what would you choose? Clubs have many different decisions to make and throwing money away when it could be better spent elsewhere is one that some clubs don't want to make. 

This is exactly the point I made earlier, workington's choice was play in this cup knowing they would lose a fairly significant amount of money, leading to a reduced player budget. Or dont play in it and have a crack at promotion. They took the latter, and as a fan I fully understand why. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, OriginalMrC said:

You say you understand and then completely miss the point. This is not a simple black and white issue. Let's say as a club owner you could pay for better training facilities, run an extra junior team, or play in the 1895 Cup what would you choose? Clubs have many different decisions to make and throwing money away when it could be better spent elsewhere is one that some clubs don't want to make. 

With respect, the point I have consistently made throughout this thread recognises what you are labouring, but then goes on to question what this situation really means. 

Regardless of individual circumstances, this comp has been stuffed again by these clubs decisions. I do wonder how often non SL clubs get together and talk about things if 8 out of 25 clubs find a new non SL cup so inappropriate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, marklaspalmas said:

With respect, the point I have consistently made throughout this thread recognises what you are labouring, but then goes on to question what this situation really means. 

Regardless of individual circumstances, this comp has been stuffed again by these clubs decisions. I do wonder how often non SL clubs get together and talk about things if 8 out of 25 clubs find a new non SL cup so inappropriate.

Clearly it would be much better if we had a competition that all eligible clubs joined. I enjoyed the Northern Rail Cup - we even got in the runners up final in its last year but for all the reasons discussed here this competition isn’t viable or attractive enough for a number of teams. For Skolars it’s finance. Keeping to budget. If you know Héctor you’ll know how much money he sinks into the team to keep it going, in a very difficult environment. The maths don’t add up. 

I don’t think it’s suffered because of the clubs. Personally it seemed to me from the start, that the whole competition felt an ill throughout attempt to fill a few more seats at Wembley. IIRC a sponsor was only found after it began. There is a place for another comp’ and maybe a non heartland cup that brings all the main southern clubs in from Cornwall to Hemel together but any new comp’ needs much more thought than this one .

More positively check out the By The Balls podcast which covers this from a Sheffield perspective.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, EssexRL said:

Clearly it would be much better if we had a competition that all eligible clubs joined. I enjoyed the Northern Rail Cup - we even got in the runners up final in its last year but for all the reasons discussed here this competition isn’t viable or attractive enough for a number of teams. For Skolars it’s finance. Keeping to budget. If you know Héctor you’ll know how much money he sinks into the team to keep it going, in a very difficult environment. The maths don’t add up. 

I don’t think it’s suffered because of the clubs. Personally it seemed to me from the start, that the whole competition felt an ill throughout attempt to fill a few more seats at Wembley. IIRC a sponsor was only found after it began. There is a place for another comp’ and maybe a non heartland cup that brings all the main southern clubs in from Cornwall to Hemel together but any new comp’ needs much more thought than this one .

More positively check out the By The Balls podcast which covers this from a Sheffield perspective.

 

Fair do's mate. The competition has been beset with problems from launch. The timing of the final, how to fit it into the fixture list, tinpot "sponsorship" launch, etc. But clubs unilaterally jacking it in virtually buries the whole thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, marklaspalmas said:

Fair do's mate. The competition has been beset with problems from launch. The timing of the final, how to fit it into the fixture list, tinpot "sponsorship" launch, etc. But clubs unilaterally jacking it in virtually buries the whole thing.

There are positives. Not least the chance for fans and players to get to Wembley (although that wasn’t particularly brilliantly organised last time - and I was one of the few neutrals who stayed behind to watch the Eagles win but then I live in London). 

I would suggest there is an opportunity to put things right. Build sponsorship. Talk to the clubs about how to make it more manageable cost and fixture-wise. See if playing before the CC Final works better than after (it should). A problem with RL is the powers that be don’t always stick with things long enough and learn from mistakes to improve. 
 

PS. I look forward to coming to Fev in the CC when Skolars beat Barrow tomorrow 😁

Edited by EssexRL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, marklaspalmas said:

With respect, the point I have consistently made throughout this thread recognises what you are labouring, but then goes on to question what this situation really means. 

Regardless of individual circumstances, this comp has been stuffed again by these clubs decisions. I do wonder how often non SL clubs get together and talk about things if 8 out of 25 clubs find a new non SL cup so inappropriate.

The simple fact is the way this competition is set up means it not financially viable for clubs to enter it, that's the rfl at fault, not the clubs. 

Edited by dkw
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Bleep1673 said:

Really well organised, 2nd round to be played w/e 01/05/20, when we are due to play Sheffield Eagles Away, 3rd round w/e 17/05/20 we play Widnes at Home, didn't they think of that before announcing the league fixtures?

I'm sorry for busting into an internal argument, but are Swinton & their Oppositions, the only teams to have to shift Championship fixtures to accommodate the 1895 cup? Or have your fixture lists been given the dates before the League release so you can rearrange them?

 

20 hours ago, Chris Taylor said:

Bring back the Northern Rail Cup.

They have done, but as usual with rail, it is a Bus service that will arrive in 2036, like HS2

  • Haha 1

Sex and Money are like Oxygen

They're not important until you're not getting enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Bleep1673 said:

I'm sorry for busting into an internal argument, but are Swinton & their Oppositions, the only teams to have to shift Championship fixtures to accommodate the 1895 cup? Or have your fixture lists been given the dates before the League release so you can rearrange them?

There is no rearranging necessary. 2nd round is a midweek, QF, SF &F are on Challenge cup weekends when there are no Championship fixtures.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



×
×
  • Create New...