Smith favours return to Super League licences

[Lowdesert]

9 hours ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

Is it divided equally among 12 teams now,? 

No, but Kear is an ex school teacher.

[Lowdesert]

10 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

True but it negates the suggestion that licencing improves junior development 

This was the problem before imo.  Clubs within that system had the opportunity and time to develop their youth with longer term commitment (money and resources).  There were varying levels of commitment ranging from very good to very little.

[LeytherRob]

On 05/05/2020 at 17:30, scotchy1 said:

And the problem isnt that clubs in small towns and areas cant attract fans from a wider more affluent area, see Aston Villa and WBA in football and the Green Bay packers in NFL for proof that isnt the case. The problem is ours dont

Aston Villa is closer to the centre of Birmingham than Old trafford is to Manchester, West Brom is perhaps half a mile further away compared to old trafford. Hardly small towns being in the 2nd largest population centre in the UK.

[iffleyox]

32 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

Aston Villa is closer to the centre of Birmingham than Old trafford is to Manchester, West Brom is perhaps half a mile further away compared to old trafford. Hardly small towns being in the 2nd largest population centre in the UK.

I'd missed that gem... Aston is a *city centre* district. West Brom is on the far side of Handsworth, which, famous at one time for it's inner city riots is, er, also broadly inner-city. 

Both grounds are closer to the city centre than anywhere than the areas that the majority of Brummies live in. West Broms on the far west side, but then Birmingham goes a hell of a lot further to the north and east than it does to the west.

Both Aston and West Brom are Birmingham, in the same way that Roundhay and Headingley are Leeds!

[Davo5]

37 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

Aston Villa is closer to the centre of Birmingham than Old trafford is to Manchester, West Brom is perhaps half a mile further away compared to old trafford. Hardly small towns being in the 2nd largest population centre in the UK.

 Not sure where Green Bay fits into it either given it’s the only NFL team in the state.

[iffleyox]

15 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

It takes (according to google) 18mins to drive from Birmingham to west Brom. 11 mins on the train.

It takes 24mins from leeds to Cas, 18mins on the train.

We see talking about a difference of 6 or 7minutes. 

Yes, in Birmingham traffic, which is why you'd get the train. It's 4.5 miles from the city centre to The Hawthorns. It's 3.4 miles to Aston Villa. Go to either of them from New Street station and you'll hit either before you get to the suburbs, let alone the next town!

However... Castleford is not in Leeds - it's nearly 17 miles away. Aston absolutely is *in* (not near) Birmingham. West Brom is a slightly funny one, being technically in Sandwell (although until very recently part of the ground was in Birmingham), but you can see the city centre and people there would say they were Brummy.

West Brom and Aston Villa are Birmingham teams. Not "West Midlands" not "urban area." West Brom you will get an argument about from some Black Country nationalists; but Aston is not a town. It's part of the city centre!

[iffleyox]

26 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Yes. This is my point. 

The major population centres in the uk are the Urban areas around london, birmingham, leeds, Manchester, glasgow and liverpool.

These small towns are small towns but in Much much bigger urban areas. 

We have clubs in 4 of the 6 biggest Urban areas in the UK. We dont need to be moving to these areas, we are already there. 

What we need to be doing is attracting people from these areas

these small towns are not small towns. Go to Aston or up the Soho Road/Cape Hill to the Hawthorns and tell people they're not *in* Birmingham and see what sort of reception you get - beyond puzzlement.

Then tell people in Cas that they *are* in Leeds.

Apples and oranges.

 

The West Mids is my homeland. There are towns that fit what you're talking about - go into the sprawling conurbation to the west (past the Hawthorns) and you get into that world of small towns in bigger urban areas. But the two you've chosen to use as examples don't fit.

I'm broadly sympathetic to your argument as far as it goes, but WBA and AV absolutely do not help you make the point. 

[iffleyox]

1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

Perhaps I've been unclear. The people in Cas arent the issue. The people in Leeds city centre are not the issue. 

Its everyone else, who arent in castleford but are within an easy commute.

I'm not arguing that Castleford are likely to be the team for leeds city centre as Aston Villa may be. I'm saying that there are tonnes of people in the Leeds urban area who can be attracted to Cas tigers and the point I was making using Aston and West Brom was that the name doesn't matter.

People from birmingham will go to west brom to watch West Brom. Not everyone but enough. And Similar Cas can look to Leeds and Selby and the environs of Wakefield. Probably not tonnes of.people from Wetherby but certainly  Rothwell, Garforth etc. 

No I think you're still missing the point (although I agree that the name doesn't matter). I'm not talking about the urban area, I'm talking about Birmingham.

People from Birmingham go and watch West Brom because *it is in Birmingham* - not the Birmingham urban area. West Brom are a Birmingham team. Wolverhampton Wanderers, on the other hand, who are as far out as Cas are from Leeds, are not a Birmingham team, and no one from Birmingham will go and watch them. 

However, and this is where you could have used better examples *within the West Midlands* - if you're an RU fan, historically it was Moseley. However, now if you want to watch top flight RU and live on the east side of Birmingham you go to Wasps. If you live on the south or west you go to Worcester. Then you are talking 34 miles and the name not mattering. But football's too tribal. 

Of the West Midlands urban area, by and large (sweeping generalisation time):

Birmingham City - you only support them if you're from and live in that side of the city of Birmingham. You do not really meet Bluenoses outside Birmingham

Aston Villa, you support them if you live in Birmingham, or one of the new towns like Redditch where your parents moved out to in the 1960s, or you're middle class. Think of them as Birmingham's Arsenal.

West Brom - you support them if you're from the west side of the city, or the extreme east of the Black Country. Or Kidderminster, for reasons I've never really understood. Not really anywhere else.

Wolves - you support them if you're from Wolverhampton or the west or south of the Black Country. Nowhere else.

Walsall - you support them if you're from Walsall.

Coventry City - Coventry and bits of north Warks.

Kidderminster Harriers - Kidderminster only

So from that list you've got Kidderminster, Walsall, the Sky Blues, Birmingham City, Wolves and West Brom  acting pretty much like local teams for local people, and Villa having slightly more draw because, god help us, they're the "glamour" team. 

I'd argue then that really what you've got in Leeds is exactly what you'd expect to get - Cas for Cas, Wakey for Wakey, and Leeds hoovering up anyone else because of size and status. So they might live closer to Cas, but they're probably going to go and watch Leeds if they go and watch anyone.

 

[iffleyox]

38 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I think you are getting too hung up on the names of places rather than the actual geography of the place. 

I'd say it was the opposite actually. What I'm saying is that the names don't matter, with the exception of Leeds and Villa who can pull because of who they are. 

Other than those teams my point is it's pretty much all geography. Cas and Wakey (or West Brom and Wolves) are local sides with no particular reason to support them unless you live nearby (I don't mean just in the exact town with the same name as the club) and want to support the local team. Leeds and Villa are the nearest "glamour" sides which transcend that.

If you look back at what I actually wrote then I've literally just listed all the leading football clubs in the West Midlands and said who, geographically, supports them. I'm not sure what more I can do. I also spelled out the situation with RU in the West Midlands because there names really don't matter and which top tier club you watch will come down to, er, geography more than anything else (which is easiest to get to).

Funnily enough, the rugby league side that has probably come closest in the last decade to transcending geography (that hadn't already done so) was probably the 2016-17-18 Castleford.

How? They became a glamour side that played good football that people wanted to go and watch. As an unaffiliated RL fan who goes to matches pretty well at random, that Cas 54 Wigan 4 in 2017 was the best, most clinically destructive game of RL I've ever seen.

[Tommygilf]

52 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I think you are getting too hung up on the names of places rather than the actual geography of the place.

That Garforth is in Leeds doesnt mean it is 'owned' by the Rhinos. Cas do draw fans from those areas, they draw fans from places like Normanton, they draw fans from towns in Wakefield. 

A town like Rothwell may technically be in Leeds and a town like Outwood may technically be in Wakefield geographically and realistically there is no difference. 

Wakefield is closer to leeds city centre and easier to get to than parts of Leeds are.

Parts of leeds are closer to bradford.than they are to leeds.

West Yorkshire is pretty much just one amorphous blob of urban sprawl, people who will tell you Cas are for Cas and Wakefield are for Wakefield are just wrong.

You will see LUFC shirts all over, different rugby shirts all over, Cas have a big urban area to go at and they do get fans from outside cas (just not enough) from some towns which are ostensibly in Wakefield, some which are in Leeds, some which are technically in neither like Selby.

The demarcations between these places are pretty much purely imaginary at this point

Edit: just to add, there is an issue with saturation. There are to many clubs fighting for scraps in that area and plenty of overlap and too much competing with each other but if you wanted to have clubs in the major population centres, and taking into account the strength of the game in this area.you would 3 or 4 in the leeds urban area north east(Leeds) south east (cas/wakefield) north west (bradford area) south west (hudds) 

Broader support goes to the larger and more successful. Its far more likely to get people from Wakefield to start supporting a team from Leeds than the other way around.

I know this because of the areas you've listed I've lived in a few for the majority of my life.

[Harry Stottle]

On 05/05/2020 at 23:43, ojx said:

Just in: Relegation threatened coach wants return to licensing.

I actually agree with him in theory. However Mr. Smith, and most other posters, don't seem to understand what licensing is meant to be about. They see it as only a means to avoid to the possibility of relegation.

Licensing requires an empowered governing body that can make brutal strategic decisions based on business models. These most importantly include relocating/replacing licensees with weaker commercial performance. It also involves strict enforcement of standards (without exception) and transparent budgeting. 

There is no such governance in place from the RFL, and definitely not from the chairmen controlled SL board. It was tried before and despite some improvements, failed to force clubs to meet the licence criteria.

Bottom line is that clubs would need to give up power to leadership structure that can implement licensing. This will not happen, so best stick with promotion and relegation.

Thanks ojx, that is probably no correction definatley the the most complete description as to why Licensing is not a good fit into the British Rugby League Format, too many people are overloaded with ulterior motives for their own inclusion.

[WakefieldCityLoyal]

1 hour ago, scotchy1 said:

I think you are getting too hung up on the names of places rather than the actual geography of the place.

That Garforth is in Leeds doesnt mean it is 'owned' by the Rhinos. Cas do draw fans from those areas, they draw fans from places like Normanton, they draw fans from towns in Wakefield. 

A town like Rothwell may technically be in Leeds and a town like Outwood may technically be in Wakefield geographically and realistically there is no difference. 

Wakefield is closer to leeds city centre and easier to get to than parts of Leeds are.

Parts of leeds are closer to bradford.than they are to leeds.

West Yorkshire is pretty much just one amorphous blob of urban sprawl, people who will tell you Cas are for Cas and Wakefield are for Wakefield are just wrong.

You will see LUFC shirts all over, different rugby shirts all over, Cas have a big urban area to go at and they do get fans from outside cas (just not enough) from some towns which are ostensibly in Wakefield, some which are in Leeds, some which are technically in neither like Selby.

The demarcations between these places are pretty much purely imaginary at this point

Edit: just to add, there is an issue with saturation. There are to many clubs fighting for scraps in that area and plenty of overlap and too much competing with each other but if you wanted to have clubs in the major population centres, and taking into account the strength of the game in this area.you would 3 or 4 in the leeds urban area north east(Leeds) south east (cas/wakefield) north west (bradford area) south west (hudds) 

Outwood is not a town 

[Harry Stottle]

On 06/05/2020 at 11:13, Buderus said:

I worry that relegation has the potential for a disaster that the sport can’t afford. Imagine if a Leeds or Wigan had a bad season and went down. Catalans almost went down a few years ago. Super League can not afford to lose its strongest clubs. 

Tough Titty, but if either of those three plus Wire who were also struggling not to long ago went down, that would be nothing more than an internal problem with player recruitment, bad coaching and bad management, clubs with their resources in comparrison to others should never be anywhere near relegation.

[Harry Stottle]

On 06/05/2020 at 15:41, scotchy1 said:

As for Toronto how do they plan long term? How do the organise 2,3,4 year tv deals? How do they invest in youth development? Torontos only priority this year is stay up. Thats the same for every year because relegation necessitates the at least partial dismantling of what they have built. 

Toronto have no intention of planning long term in the sense of development whether that be youth or whatever, if they had it would have started in the 4 years they have been in existance - Rowley and Noble were recruited April/May '16 to start recruitment, and didn't Mr Perez state that to get a TV deal there would have to be a least 5 NA clubs in SL to make the investment worthwhile. Sorry they are only interested in "bringing the circus to town" If Argyle is really commited to Rugby League Football getting a foothold in Toronto he would have taken steps by now to help to finance an infrastructure programme, I am convinced it is just a toy to him to give him amusement and when the batteries run down it will be cast aside.

"Partial dismantling of what they have built"? I have total admiration for the Toronto public who attend, pity is we cannot see how they would have reacted this season if the early season form had carried on though, but that is the sum of what Toronto have built an attendance, and I don't know if as was reported how many "loss leaders" if any at all were and will still be given out, but that aside what else have they built?

[Harry Stottle]

22 hours ago, Gooleboy said:

I bet they don't!

There is definatley one in Wigan that doesn't want to give any up.

[GUBRATS]

3 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Broader support goes to the larger and more successful. Its far more likely to get people from Wakefield to start supporting a team from Leeds than the other way around.

I know this because of the areas you've listed I've lived in a few for the majority of my life.

That's the one , without waffling on for hours 

[Big Picture]

8 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Toronto have no intention of planning long term in the sense of development whether that be youth or whatever, if they had it would have started in the 4 years they have been in existance - Rowley and Noble were recruited April/May '16 to start recruitment, and didn't Mr Perez state that to get a TV deal there would have to be a least 5 NA clubs in SL to make the investment worthwhile. Sorry they are only interested in "bringing the circus to town" If Argyle is really commited to Rugby League Football getting a foothold in Toronto he would have taken steps by now to help to finance an infrastructure programme, I am convinced it is just a toy to him to give him amusement and when the batteries run down it will be cast aside.

No, Argyle wouldn't get involved in financing an infrastructure program because that's not how things work over here.

No one in North American pro sports spends their money on development of their sport, it doesn't happen.  What does happen is that pro teams at the top level of those sports act as a beacon and inspire others to get involved in that development and expansion of the sport at lower levels and they then raise the money needed to support it from other sources.  That's how the Toronto Raptors kick-started the growth of basketball in Canada and it's how the Wolfpack will kick-start the growth the RL in Canada if they're given the chance.

[Smudger06]

On 06/05/2020 at 14:49, scotchy1 said:

There a loads, and there a different formats of both.

It's a matter of ownership,trading, rights etc.

A simple way to think about it is that a license allows a club to play in SL, a franchise would give a business the ownership of the right to run an SL club.

Been allowed to play in SL & the right to run a SL Club. ? What's the difference? 

[Davo5]

16 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Perhaps I've been unclear. The people in Cas arent the issue. The people in Leeds city centre are not the issue. 

Its everyone else, who arent in castleford but are within an easy commute.

I'm not arguing that Castleford are likely to be the team for leeds city centre as Aston Villa may be. I'm saying that there are tonnes of people in the Leeds urban area who can be attracted to Cas tigers and the point I was making using Aston and West Brom was that the name doesn't matter.

People from birmingham will go to west brom to watch West Brom even though they have no affiliation with the town or name. Not everyone but enough. And Similar Cas can look to Leeds and Selby and the environs of Wakefield. Probably not tonnes of.people from Wetherby but certainly  Rothwell, Garforth etc. 

 

[Harry Stottle]

7 hours ago, Big Picture said:

No, Argyle wouldn't get involved in financing an infrastructure program because that's not how things work over here.

No one in North American pro sports spends their money on development of their sport, it doesn't happen.  What does happen is that pro teams at the top level of those sports act as a beacon and inspire others to get involved in that development and expansion of the sport at lower levels and they then raise the money needed to support it from other sources.  That's how the Toronto Raptors kick-started the growth of basketball in Canada and it's how the Wolfpack will kick-start the growth the RL in Canada if they're given the chance.

When is the Wolfpack going to flick the switch on the Beacon and kick-start the growth as you say the Raptors have done, the blueprint must already be in place for the pathway. 

[Harry Stottle]

14 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Toronto Wolfpacks youth development is exactly as good as Leigh Centurions youth development. 

Is that all from answering your post?

Do I really need to answer that question, just between 2 Amatuer clubs Leigh has at least 14 teams at different age levels that produces professional player's from a town with just 45,000.

As I have said I wouldn't expect Toronto to produce any player's for a long time, but if it is really serious about a long term strategy for the game in Canada there is always day 1 to start it on it's journey, problem is Tomorrow never comes.

 

 

[Harry Stottle]

2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

None of those are Leigh centurions.

Toronto Wolfpack have exactly the same youth development as Leigh Centurions. That is, buy in players from other clubs. 

Pardon, I will leave you to research how many presently at the club and last season came through the Leigh town pathway. 

[GUBRATS]

12 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Pardon, I will leave you to research how many presently at the club and last season came through the Leigh town pathway. 

Harry , the Leigh youth and community trust ( former Leigh Centurions Community dept ) operate out of the LSV , they pay former RL players to go out into the community providing RL based programmes in schools all around the Leigh/Wigan area , and indeed further afield , they also provide community programmes at the LSV classroom to various disadvantaged groups 

 

[Harry Stottle]

3 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Harry , the Leigh youth and community trust ( former Leigh Centurions Community dept ) operate out of the LSV , they pay former RL players to go out into the community providing RL based programmes in schools all around the Leigh/Wigan area , and indeed further afield , they also provide community programmes at the LSV classroom to various disadvantaged groups 

 

Over to Scotchy

[GUBRATS]

3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Over to Scotchy

I wouldn't hold your breath , he'll be along shortly to suggest it's nothing to do with the club , and/ or that it isn't as good as Leeds Foundation , or that it's not ' real ' player development , that's why I have him on ignore , life on here is much simpler