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Just now, SL17 said:

That’s your option as you’re not given any other option. Which is why the game is so set in its way. 
 

Cos people won’t make an effort to change the norm.

Explain how you provide what they are suggesting at the LSV ?

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3 minutes ago, iffleyox said:

First question - both yes

Second question - both yes

Third question - Worcester has none now, Exeter has more external.

 

? Seriously , it's a wedding venue , look at a modern RL/ Football stadium and explain how you translate that type of event to it ?

 

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1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

It's just one stand with a fence round it , a glorified community stadium , explain how you put on what you're describing at a modern 4 stander stadium like the LSV or countless others ?

Ok, I didn't want to make this too union but let's look at how Northampton and Gloucester do it as they're large, modern city centre grounds on constrained sites that do what I've said Moseley do (rather than out of towns like Exeter and Worcester) - which is apparently not scaleable for super league and shows nothing to learn for RL Championship sides either...

They sweat anything they've got at all between the perimeter fence, on any side or corner that has got one between the ground and the road.

They redesigned the internal concourses as they redeveloped to be something other than concrete passageways. They decorated, they put in bars and concessions, in the case of one of those grounds they even carpeted non corporate areas. That's where they then put the bands on etc after the match.

But more to the point I accept that they though about all of this at the time they were (re)building, so that ship may well have sailed.

4 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Do these 1000 people walk home afterwards or drive ? 

Generally train or bus in most cases. I tend to drive but then I live 75 miles away, I get the train when I can. The station's about 15 mins walk and is 10 mins to Birmingham city centre. 

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20 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

? Seriously , it's a wedding venue , look at a modern RL/ Football stadium and explain how you translate that type of event to it ?

 

what's a wedding venue? You asked those questions about, and I answered them for, Worcester and Exeter,

a quick google of football grounds suggests most of them are too... you've lost me. 

Also isn't that the point? It's not enough to just have a ground. To maximise your income (and I accept this isn't going to happen if you're a tenant of someone else) you want to be a wedding/conference/hospitality venue that happens to have a rectangle of grass. Not a sports pitch that tries to do the reverse.

On your second bit - it sounds, again, like we've got the wrong stadia for the sport then doesn't it? Football's awash with money so it matters less to them. RL very much isn't but there's a resistance to doing anything other than unlocking half an hour before kick off and locking again the same time afterwards. 

Edited by iffleyox
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30 minutes ago, iffleyox said:

what's a wedding venue? You asked those questions about, and I answered them for, Worcester and Exeter,

a quick google of football grounds suggests most of them are too... you've lost me. 

Also isn't that the point? It's not enough to just have a ground. To maximise your income (and I accept this isn't going to happen if you're a tenant of someone else) you want to be a wedding/conference/hospitality venue that happens to have a rectangle of grass. Not a sports pitch that tries to do the reverse.

On your second bit - it sounds, again, like we've got the wrong stadia for they sport then doesn't it? Football's awash with money so it matters less to them. RL very much isn't but there's a resistance to doing anything other than unlocking half an hour before kick off and locking again the same time afterwards. 

Yes , we are much more similar to football than cricket , or indeed Union , we have been professional for a century , we were ( and still are to a degree ) a winter sport that required covered stands to stay dry , so even Union being amateur means they've been able to get away with substandard stadiums for decades as the intensity of playing friendly games meant it was more of booze up than real competitive sport , this also allowed them to own large areas around their primary pitches

Cricket has always been different due to the necessity of full day long matches and the potential to be rained off at times 

Complete nonsense to compare , a completely different dynamic 

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I don't want this to go cross code, and also I've got work to do, so that's me done on that tangent - sorry for dragging it in that direction.

I think that there are opportunities to do *something* more going begging, and too many people defaulting to "we can't do anything and I'm only bothered about the 80 mins on the pitch anyway" - which is a totally legitimate opinion obviously but they've got you in the bag. It's other people that are the target here.

I had also thought, in an expansion thread, that Moseley was relevant given that their days of getting 14,000 through the gates are long gone, and what they do with 1,000 people every week *and which has got them to the stage where they could build everything they have built debt free without a benefactor* might be useful. They lost their old ground and nearly went out of existence at the turn of the millennium. They saved over £5 million to build that one stand from donations and income from sweating the ground. Admittedly I didn't make it clear why I thought it was a useful case study. My broader point was that if you're an expansion club in League 1 and the Championship then there might be something to learn from them. Hell, even if you're a normal club in League 1 or the Championship.

But where I was actually going with it too was the line that there's nothing to learn from Toronto, cricket, or anyone who provides a match day experience which is more than the game, and relies on taking more money than from the game itself. I just don't buy it, whatever the level. 

People that want to come and watch rugby for 80 minutes are catered for at the moment, and literally nothing anyone's suggesting changes that. But at the moment nothing is done for anyone else, and there's too much feeling across 11 pages that nothing *should* be done for them either. It's a comfort zone. But it's a comfort zone that relies on the current crowds continuing to replace themselves. Unless the situation is worse than I thought and it's actually like the CofE where the dyed in the wool are happy that "it will probably last long enough to see me out but after that it's lights out and it won't affect me". Which is a terminal comfort zone.

 

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4 minutes ago, iffleyox said:

I don't want this to go cross code, and also I've got work to do, so that's me done on that tangent - sorry for dragging it in that direction.

I think that there are opportunities to do *something* more going begging, and too many people defaulting to "we can't do anything and I'm only bothered about the 80 mins on the pitch anyway" - which is a totally legitimate opinion obviously but they've got you in the bag. It's other people that are the target here.

I had also thought, in an expansion thread, that Moseley was relevant given that their days of getting 14,000 through the gates are long gone, and what they do with 1,000 people every week *and which has got them to the stage where they could build everything they have built debt free without a benefactor* might be useful. They lost their old ground and nearly went out of existence at the turn of the millennium. They saved over £5 million to build that one stand from donations and income from sweating the ground. Admittedly I didn't make it clear why I thought it was a useful case study. My broader point was that if you're an expansion club in League 1 and the Championship then there might be something to learn from them. Hell, even if you're a normal club in League 1 or the Championship.

But where I was actually going with it too was the line that there's nothing to learn from Toronto, cricket, or anyone who provides a match day experience which is more than the game, and relies on taking more money than from the game itself. I just don't buy it, whatever the level. 

People that want to come and watch rugby for 80 minutes are catered for at the moment, and literally nothing anyone's suggesting changes that. But at the moment nothing is done for anyone else, and there's too much feeling across 11 pages that nothing *should* be done for them either. It's a comfort zone. But it's a comfort zone that relies on the current crowds continuing to replace themselves. Unless the situation is worse than I thought and it's actually like the CofE where the dyed in the wool are happy that "it will probably last long enough to see me out but after that it's lights out and it won't affect me". Which is a terminal comfort zone.

 

When I was a director at Leigh , I wanted us to do loads of stuff , and we did , now at the LSV , we are tied to doing essentially nothing , some clubs like Batley do put stuff on , similarily Fev , and if I was looking to build a lower tier club in or outside the heartlands I would be pushing for what you suggest 

But do not compare a RL match to a cricket match , completely different 

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4 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Yes , we are much more similar to football than cricket , or indeed Union , we have been professional for a century , we were ( and still are to a degree ) a winter sport that required covered stands to stay dry , so even Union being amateur means they've been able to get away with substandard stadiums for decades as the intensity of playing friendly games meant it was more of booze up than real competitive sport , this also allowed them to own large areas around their primary pitches

Cricket has always been different due to the necessity of full day long matches and the potential to be rained off at times 

Complete nonsense to compare , a completely different dynamic 

One more, but despite what I said above this was a cross post. Then I will leave it.

I agree with the account of the separate development and everything in terms of what happened over the first hundred years, so as far as it goes I agree with the thrust of this post.

However, I would make one small alteration - the third word, "are" should now be "were."

We've ended up in a sporting landscape in the UK, if not the world, where sport is basically binary: football, and other.

LIke it or not every spectator sport is operating now in football's long shadow, and there's more to learn from each other these days, whether cricket, RU, ice hockey, horse racing, whatever, than there is to stand apart and say "we're more similar to football."

IMO anyway. 

But I accept that there are limitations on space because of that history obviously. I'm not sure we're actually that far apart on this really, but I think the future's going to have to look different to the past, and that means borrowing from other sports and trying to brak out of *some* of what RL has been. Evolution not revolution.

Anyway, now I really have got to do some work.

 

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The only stadiums ( apart from Headingley which is unique due to the cricket ) in SL where you could actually do what is being suggested are the ones that are criticised for being old a decrepid , CAS,Wakey and partly HKR , everybody else has modern Stacia built to provide dry ,clean , safe spectator viewing of the game being played 

Beer festivals aren't what we need at those venues 

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19 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

The only stadiums ( apart from Headingley which is unique due to the cricket ) in SL where you could actually do what is being suggested are the ones that are criticised for being old a decrepid , CAS,Wakey and partly HKR , everybody else has modern Stacia built to provide dry ,clean , safe spectator viewing of the game being played 

Beer festivals aren't what we need at those venues 

All the other grounds have concourses, outside carparks. Wigan have bought the bit next to the DW to do things exactly like has been suggested.

All clubs already do it to varying extent, they just don't do it very good (for general admission, corporate is another aspect).

Its not even that almighty football are immune from this either - look at the New Spurs ground as a prime example.

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3 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

All the other grounds have concourses, outside carparks. Wigan have bought the bit next to the DW to do things exactly like has been suggested.

All clubs already do it to varying extent, they just don't do it very good (for general admission, corporate is another aspect).

Its not even that almighty football are immune from this either - look at the New Spurs ground as a prime example.

Car parks are for cars to park 

Concourses are generally too small , at least half the clubs have no control over their stadiums , yes Wigan have another facility OUTSIDE and a reasonable distance away from where they play 

 flog the horse all you want , it died years ago 

Edited by GUBRATS

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7 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

All the other grounds have concourses, outside carparks. Wigan have bought the bit next to the DW to do things exactly like has been suggested.

All clubs already do it to varying extent, they just don't do it very good (for general admission, corporate is another aspect).

Its not even that almighty football are immune from this either - look at the New Spurs ground as a prime example.

Catalans have live music, kids games, kids activities just through the main entrance.  That and whatever is arranged on the pitch, pre match.  Always a good atmosphere.

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1 hour ago, iffleyox said:

One more, but despite what I said above this was a cross post. Then I will leave it.

I agree with the account of the separate development and everything in terms of what happened over the first hundred years, so as far as it goes I agree with the thrust of this post.

However, I would make one small alteration - the third word, "are" should now be "were."

We've ended up in a sporting landscape in the UK, if not the world, where sport is basically binary: football, and other.

LIke it or not every spectator sport is operating now in football's long shadow, and there's more to learn from each other these days, whether cricket, RU, ice hockey, horse racing, whatever, than there is to stand apart and say "we're more similar to football."

IMO anyway. 

But I accept that there are limitations on space because of that history obviously. I'm not sure we're actually that far apart on this really, but I think the future's going to have to look different to the past, and that means borrowing from other sports and trying to brak out of *some* of what RL has been. Evolution not revolution.

Anyway, now I really have got to do some work.

 

Globally football is for sure number 1, but I'm not sure the NFL for example would say they're operating in its shadow.  Nevertheless other sports learning from each other to expand is as you say useful,  but how about learning from football,  or is that just daft.

It's not all about money, football was massive back in the bygone days of b+w telly. How did they do it? What is a game day experience like now at football,  can we learn or just plain copy.  Presumably they haven't expanded around the globe using black magic,  if they can do it why can't we, in a smaller scale of course. Trouble is RL had woken up after 100 odd years and decided to give expansion a real go, and found a congested sports market with other sports doing the same, it may be a wee bit too late. If in 20 years RL is as popular globally as RU is now it will be a remarkable success story worthy of praise, anything else is pie in the sky.

There's also a hidden or maybe not so hidden conceit about proposals for a World League or whatever. Somehow I don't think global tv companies are going to be lining up to throw millions at a league played in cities where RL is unknown in front of 3/4 empty stadiums,  at least for a year or two, it doesn't look good on tv, and would be a massive gamble. I've watched some t20 or t10 cricket from Qatar and Canada,  yes they got a tv deal, probably Indian or Aussie,  played in front of nobody whilst the Qataris and Canadians serenely carried on with their lives and ignored it. So any proposal for RL gobal competition would require an enormous leap of faith from broadcasters to even consider it, unless Australians stepped in and then it would just be the same eyeballs watching it. 

Edited by HawkMan

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1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

Car parks are for cars to park 

Concourses are generally too small , at least half the clubs have no control over their stadiums , yes Wigan have another facility OUTSIDE and a reasonable distance away from where they play 

 flog the horse all you want , it died years ago 

Its a suggestion, not all clubs may be able to do it, thats life. Make do with what you have.

If concourses are too small then why do they already have kiosks there already?

That is the crucial point you're missing here. Clubs already do this, they already know that what people have said about improving matchday experience is right. They're already providing a catering and experience to fans. The catering and experience just generally isn't that good.

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3 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

Catalans have live music, kids games, kids activities just through the main entrance.  That and whatever is arranged on the pitch, pre match.  Always a good atmosphere.

Exactly, I've been to Lyon for Rugby union and it was excellent (game aside). Excellent food and drink available - we had murguez hot dogs. 

Its all about improving that experience.

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4 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

At Elland Road they have the centenary pavilion across the road where they can hold gigs etc after games and keep people about for longer

Exactly, its about catering for all tastes.

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A lot of it is culture (London Broncos is good for pre match nice lunch and good bar with a nice selection of drinks) when I am back in Spain working during school holidays I drive up to watch Toulouse 4/5/6 times a year its a wonderful day out pre match reception (2 hours) match then after match reception (2 hours) Its not unusual for 4/500 to attend this players mixing after match coaches directors everyone totally fab day out:)

 

Paul

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1 hour ago, scotchy1 said:

At Elland Road they have the centenary pavilion across the road where they can hold gigs etc after games and keep people about for longer

Headingley's South Stand concourse was designed to be able to host events pre and post-match as well. The live bands, pre and post-match interviews and the like are pretty good. 

Not sure what the casual attendee gets from JJB's post-match thoughts, but hey ho. 

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5 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

Headingley's South Stand concourse was designed to be able to host events pre and post-match as well. The live bands, pre and post-match interviews and the like are pretty good. 

Not sure what the casual attendee gets from JJB's post-match thoughts, but hey ho. 

Exactly, they do it already, just not very well imo

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Covid 19 may ironically take us full circle Back to the start of SL

if after this we have a host of insolvent clubs and a tv company handing out desperately needed cash what if any changes might they demand?

Beggars can’t be choosers and who knows franchises, new clubs, more international clubs mergers etc may end up back on the table 

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19 minutes ago, headtackle said:

Covid 19 may ironically take us full circle Back to the start of SL

if after this we have a host of insolvent clubs and a tv company handing out desperately needed cash what if any changes might they demand?

Beggars can’t be choosers and who knows franchises, new clubs, more international clubs mergers etc may end up back on the table 

oh god now youve done it! full house on forum fight bingo!

tv deals

Franchises

International cliubs

mergers

on a thread about expansion

Parksider is getting a new email address so that he can re-register as we speak!

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2 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Its a suggestion, not all clubs may be able to do it, thats life. Make do with what you have.

If concourses are too small then why do they already have kiosks there already?

That is the crucial point you're missing here. Clubs already do this, they already know that what people have said about improving matchday experience is right. They're already providing a catering and experience to fans. The catering and experience just generally isn't that good.

I agree they’re not good, but let’s face it a lot of people (probably the majority) would rather have a pint of Carling than something more interesting (sales figures would suggest so) and the same goes for food. So while a lot of us on this forum think food and drink at most sporting events is tripe, a lot of people don’t and I expect the clubs know that. 
 

I once wrote to Delia Smith about this (as the beer at Carrow Road is so awful and ridiculously overpriced, like at all grounds) and her reply basically said that real ale won’t sell in sufficient amounts to make it commercially viable, as it’s more expensive to buy, is more difficult to keep and doesn’t last long in a barrel. 

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41 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Its strange that the food options at the cricket are so much better imo than the rugby.

The beer at both is pretty bad.

But headingley should be ideal.for a whole day experience

Agreed. The food and drinks thing is a pet peeve. Especially when the facilities at Headingley can clearly provide better and does regularly.

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On ‎27‎/‎05‎/‎2020 at 08:54, Harry Stottle said:

And which of the existing 8 clubs do you go and watch, notice I said go and watch.

I watch Sheffield I also go to Doncaster , Dewsbury , Wakefield and Huddersfied. I go to challenge cup and sometimes super league final . I really watch any game that's going . Went to most world club challenge games , England internationals and lots of different teams in world cup . I would continue to go to games what ever the competition or league .

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Chief Crazy Eagle

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6 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

But they didnt. 

And the RFL can't focus around protecting one club in the hope that one day someone throws money at them. 

I note you only comment on one of the points stated .... what about the Hetgherington / Lindsay fact ?

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