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Eddie

Draws

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17 hours ago, Eddie said:

What do you lot think of draws? I like them, and can’t see any reason why there now has to be a winner. Tonight’s result is unfair on HKR imho, they should have earned a point. 

So who would progress in a cup game or lift the trophy?

Why should the rules and structure not be standardised across all games?

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16 hours ago, bratman said:

Think we should bring draws back. Don't think golden point really adds much.

I much prefer the thrill of extra time, would have been a flat ending the draw

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17 hours ago, Futtocks said:

I have no problem with a draw earned across 80 minutes. Plus Golden Point is usually each team taking turns to barge up the field before attempting a drop goal.

If I wanted to watch that, there's plenty of Rugby Union on TV.

I would change the rule so each team was guarenteed at least one possession

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13 minutes ago, yipyee said:

Why should the rules and structure not be standardised across all games?

Unless you want to play replays that’s always the case . Cup games  , knockout games need a winner by definition . League games do not . Look at penalty shoot outs in footy , they don’t have them in the league so things aren’t standard , they’re tailored to need . There is simply no need whatsoever for golden point in a league format . It’s pure gimmickry

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1 hour ago, johnh1 said:

A draw is a draw and both teams deserve something from it. Keep Golden Point for games where a winner is needed.

No, revert to 10 minutes each way in those other matches.  That way winning isn't ever dependent on the luck of the coin toss.

50 minutes ago, George Watt said:

The 68-48 points result was in the 2002 series.

Sorry my mistake, my post is fixed now.

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1 hour ago, yipyee said:

So who would progress in a cup game or lift the trophy?

Why should the rules and structure not be standardised across all games?

Do you think all league games in football should go to extra time and penalties also? 

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6 hours ago, Eddie said:

Do you think all league games in football should go to extra time and penalties also? 

Its a different sport, 

Do you think we should get a bonus point for scoring 4 tries and one for loosing by less than 7?

Not really relevent,

American sports go to golden point/ OT 

In footy i wouldnt go to penalties i would keep playing until a team scores

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7 hours ago, DavidM said:

Unless you want to play replays that’s always the case . Cup games  , knockout games need a winner by definition . League games do not . Look at penalty shoot outs in footy , they don’t have them in the league so things aren’t standard , they’re tailored to need . There is simply no need whatsoever for golden point in a league format . It’s pure gimmickry

You can standardise the game by ensuring theres a winner for every gamr played, not that hard to do really.

In a draw no one wins and is a bit lame. 

When theres a draw in boxing everyone kicks off

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16 hours ago, yipyee said:

You can standardise the game by ensuring theres a winner for every gamr played, not that hard to do really.

In a draw no one wins and is a bit lame. 

When theres a draw in boxing everyone kicks off

Boxing isn’t a league though is it. A draw is a perfectly legitimate score in a league, with the points shared. 

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I do not like GP extra time, unless, as DavidM reminds us, it is a necessity in a knock-out competition, or stage of a competition.  

Further, if, however, you are going to have it, I struggle with the logic of giving a point to the losers and two to the winners, as was planned for the championship.  If losing on a GP is not as bad as losing after 80 minutes, then my brain says that logically winning after GP is not as good as winning after 80 minutes.  The solution would be to play each match for three points, with 3 for a win and none for a defeat in 80 minutes, and a 2/1 split for a match determined by GP.  A consequence of that, incidentally, is that you must play on to get a winner.

However, as I say, except in elimination matches, I would prefer to have a draw for level scores after 80 minutes.

Yipyee, some responses to points you make:

On 12/09/2020 at 14:01, yipyee said:

So who would progress in a cup game or lift the trophy?

Why should the rules and structure not be standardised across all games?

Because not all games have the same outcome; some result in a team's elimination from further involvement in that competition, some don't.

On 12/09/2020 at 14:04, yipyee said:

I would change the rule so each team was guarenteed at least one possession

Why and how?  Presumably your suggestion precludes 'sudden death' overtime, such as GP, and requires a set number of minutes of play - five, ten or whatever.  What happens if there is still a draw after that?

17 hours ago, yipyee said:

Its a different sport, 

Do you think we should get a bonus point for scoring 4 tries and one for loosing by less than 7?

Not really relevent,

American sports go to golden point/ OT 

In footy i wouldnt go to penalties i would keep playing until a team scores

They may do now, but didn't always.  I have followed ice hockey for about sixty years and for the first twenty of those, the NHL was quite happy to have draws, or 'ties' as I recall they described them, with no play after 60 minutes to decide a winner.  Arguably, the NHL now has a real mess, with regular season games going to a prescribed period of overtime, with reduced team size, and if there is still no winner, it is a penalty shoot-out.  However, come play-off time, as I understand it (and, as ever, happy to be corrected if I have this wrong), there is no penalty shoot-out.  You keep playing till somebody scores, and if that means an evening match goes into the wee small hours, then so be it!

17 hours ago, yipyee said:

You can standardise the game by ensuring theres a winner for every gamr played, not that hard to do really.

In a draw no one wins and is a bit lame. 

When theres a draw in boxing everyone kicks off

You are conflating fact and opinion.  Yes, no one wins, but who says it's a bit lame.  Many on here clearly don't.  As the clock in an RL match ticks down to 80 minutes, if there is only one last chance to score and win, that is very exciting.  If it's extra time, and a team fails to score in its first or second set of six, you can always think that quite possibly (if not definitely) they will get another chance.

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2 hours ago, Eddie said:

Boxing isn’t a league though is it. A draw is a perfectly legitimate score in a league, with the points shared. 

Doesnt have to be though does it

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2 hours ago, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

I do not like GP extra time, unless, as DavidM reminds us, it is a necessity in a knock-out competition, or stage of a competition.  

Further, if, however, you are going to have it, I struggle with the logic of giving a point to the losers and two to the winners, as was planned for the championship.  If losing on a GP is not as bad as losing after 80 minutes, then my brain says that logically winning after GP is not as good as winning after 80 minutes.  The solution would be to play each match for three points, with 3 for a win and none for a defeat in 80 minutes, and a 2/1 split for a match determined by GP.  A consequence of that, incidentally, is that you must play on to get a winner.

However, as I say, except in elimination matches, I would prefer to have a draw for level scores after 80 minutes.

Yipyee, some responses to points you make:

Because not all games have the same outcome; some result in a team's elimination from further involvement in that competition, some don't.

Why and how?  Presumably your suggestion precludes 'sudden death' overtime, such as GP, and requires a set number of minutes of play - five, ten or whatever.  What happens if there is still a draw after that?

They may do now, but didn't always.  I have followed ice hockey for about sixty years and for the first twenty of those, the NHL was quite happy to have draws, or 'ties' as I recall they described them, with no play after 60 minutes to decide a winner.  Arguably, the NHL now has a real mess, with regular season games going to a prescribed period of overtime, with reduced team size, and if there is still no winner, it is a penalty shoot-out.  However, come play-off time, as I understand it (and, as ever, happy to be corrected if I have this wrong), there is no penalty shoot-out.  You keep playing till somebody scores, and if that means an evening match goes into the wee small hours, then so be it!

You are conflating fact and opinion.  Yes, no one wins, but who says it's a bit lame.  Many on here clearly don't.  As the clock in an RL match ticks down to 80 minutes, if there is only one last chance to score and win, that is very exciting.  If it's extra time, and a team fails to score in its first or second set of six, you can always think that quite possibly (if not definitely) they will get another chance.

Ok celebrating a draw might be ok for little clubs but does nothing for a contest.

I dont like it and prefer the progression that our leafue has taken

I also get that older people can be stuck in the past and dont like change / takes time to getcused to change

The good thing about most debates is that there is no right or wrong.

What i think is lame some might enjoy and like to celebrate mediocricy for example points for draws or loosing bonus points etc...

 

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17 minutes ago, yipyee said:

Ok celebrating a draw might be ok for little clubs but does nothing for a contest.

I dont like it and prefer the progression that our leafue has taken

I also get that older people can be stuck in the past and dont like change / takes time to getcused to change

The good thing about most debates is that there is no right or wrong.

What i think is lame some might enjoy and like to celebrate mediocricy for example points for draws or loosing bonus points etc...

 

Would HKR getting a point away at Saints have been a celebration of mediocrity? 

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2 hours ago, Eddie said:

Would HKR getting a point away at Saints have been a celebration of mediocrity? 

Definatly news in the hull local paper- hull kr robbed of a point ha

If you are celebrating drawing its prity poor. 

In a draw litteraly no one wins

Edited by yipyee

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2 hours ago, yipyee said:

Ok celebrating a draw might be ok for little clubs but does nothing for a contest.

I dont like it and prefer the progression that our leafue has taken

I also get that older people can be stuck in the past and dont like change / takes time to getcused to change

The good thing about most debates is that there is no right or wrong.

What i think is lame some might enjoy and like to celebrate mediocricy for example points for draws or loosing bonus points etc...

 

What is lame is all of this . Your arguments for golden point are totally disingenuous 

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4 hours ago, yipyee said:

Ok celebrating a draw might be ok for little clubs but does nothing for a contest.

I dont like it and prefer the progression that our leafue has taken

I also get that older people can be stuck in the past and dont like change / takes time to getcused to change

The good thing about most debates is that there is no right or wrong.

What i think is lame some might enjoy and like to celebrate mediocricy for example points for draws or loosing bonus points etc...

 

Could you define what 'little clubs' means to you, please, and why you believe that 'big clubs' would never be content with a draw, which is what your observation seems to imply?  I am intrigued!

I agree that older people can be stuck in the past.  I also get that younger people can be attracted by change for the sake of change.  That said, I humbly recognise that some older people can also be attracted by change for its own sake, while some younger people take stock of past practice and appreciate its intrinsic merit.

Contrary to what you say, the good thing about most debates is that there is plenty of right and wrong in their factual content; it is what one deduces from the facts that is, by definition, debatable.  It is also good not to mix fact and opinion in a muddled or wanton way, which is what I believe you did earlier.

Others are not celebrating mediocrity per se, but rather what you perceive to be mediocre; they, of course, do not agree with your perception!

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4 hours ago, DavidM said:

What is lame is all of this . Your arguments for golden point are totally disingenuous 

Why is it there then?

Its there as its an improvement on a stale century old system that is outdated and was in need of modernising to attract the fans of the future

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9 hours ago, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

I do not like GP extra time, unless, as DavidM reminds us, it is a necessity in a knock-out competition, or stage of a competition.  

Further, if, however, you are going to have it, I struggle with the logic of giving a point to the losers and two to the winners, as was planned for the championship.  If losing on a GP is not as bad as losing after 80 minutes, then my brain says that logically winning after GP is not as good as winning after 80 minutes.  The solution would be to play each match for three points, with 3 for a win and none for a defeat in 80 minutes, and a 2/1 split for a match determined by GP.  A consequence of that, incidentally, is that you must play on to get a winner.

 

Interestingly a system proposed in last years NRL review to give some reward to a team losing in GP was as follows.

Award 4 points for a normal match win. Award 3 points for a win in GP.  Award 2 points each if match is level after GP. Award 1 point for loser in GP.

As mentioned in my earlier post this was one of several ideas put forward but no consensus for change from the present system was reached.

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3 hours ago, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

Could you define what 'little clubs' means to you, please, and why you believe that 'big clubs' would never be content with a draw, which is what your observation seems to imply?  I am intrigued!

I agree that older people can be stuck in the past.  I also get that younger people can be attracted by change for the sake of change.  That said, I humbly recognise that some older people can also be attracted by change for its own sake, while some younger people take stock of past practice and appreciate its intrinsic merit.

Contrary to what you say, the good thing about most debates is that there is plenty of right and wrong in their factual content; it is what one deduces from the facts that is, by definition, debatable.  It is also good not to mix fact and opinion in a muddled or wanton way, which is what I believe you did earlier.

Others are not celebrating mediocrity per se, but rather what you perceive to be mediocre; they, of course, do not agree with your perception!

Little club= any team that think a draw is a good outcome to a game that they tried to win,

You know lets plan all week to win but then celebrate like its 1999 if we scrape a draw.

In sport there should be a winner and a loser and all modern competitions steer clear of tied games.

I agree on your points about debate but that doesnt apply to this thread.

There is no right or wrong in weather a draw is correct or not. There is no factual right or wrong and therefore no fuction.

This is just a case of stay in the past or modernise and as with most things if you stand still you become less relevant and die

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Drawn games were never a big issue as it wasn’t as though there were loads of drawn games every week. There was nothing wrong with teas sharing a point after a hard fought game where neither team could be separated and is better than teams turning a game into a drop goal contest.

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14 hours ago, yipyee said:

Ok celebrating a draw might be ok for little clubs but does nothing for a contest.

I dont like it and prefer the progression that our leafue has taken

I also get that older people can be stuck in the past and dont like change / takes time to getcused to change

The good thing about most debates is that there is no right or wrong.

What i think is lame some might enjoy and like to celebrate mediocricy for example points for draws or loosing bonus points etc...

 

Where to start ?  Does nothing for a contest .. by definition a draw is a close competitive game so it’s a good contest . Honestly thinking back some of the best games I’ve been to were draws . 
Little clubs celebrating . That’s just a sweeping falacy. Coming back and snatching a draw , or earning a draw after a great effort against a superior side or away  from home against a good side is a great effort to be celebrated . Getting a point is a tangible reward - why should it be taken away on a lottery of a drop goal or a few minutes extra time after you’ve given everything for 80 . You do that and draw you deserve reward . 80 minutes is 80 minutes - win lose draw . The league can accommodate those and every point earned goes into that . 
Older people don’t like change and are stuck in the past . Well that’s just a throwaway insult . Old or young , people can accept change if it’s progressive and worthwhile . This isn’t an age issue , it’s a sport issue . 
Celebrate mediocrity . Well , that’s a rehash of the first . A draw is a reward for what you put in . Many draws come  from the opposite of mediocrity . 
And the bit about modern sports competitions steering clear of draws because there has to be a winner or loser ... well , really 🤔

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50 minutes ago, DavidM said:

Where to start ?  Does nothing for a contest .. by definition a draw is a close competitive game so it’s a good contest . Honestly thinking back some of the best games I’ve been to were draws . 
Little clubs celebrating . That’s just a sweeping falacy. Coming back and snatching a draw , or earning a draw after a great effort against a superior side or away  from home against a good side is a great effort to be celebrated . Getting a point is a tangible reward - why should it be taken away on a lottery of a drop goal or a few minutes extra time after you’ve given everything for 80 . You do that and draw you deserve reward . 80 minutes is 80 minutes - win lose draw . The league can accommodate those and every point earned goes into that . 
Older people don’t like change and are stuck in the past . Well that’s just a throwaway insult . Old or young , people can accept change if it’s progressive and worthwhile . This isn’t an age issue , it’s a sport issue . 
Celebrate mediocrity . Well , that’s a rehash of the first . A draw is a reward for what you put in . Many draws come  from the opposite of mediocrity . 
And the bit about modern sports competitions steering clear of draws because there has to be a winner or loser ... well , really 🤔

Your entitled to your opinion, i have clearly said that people who dont like change will not like moving away from draws, in general older people are less suceptable to change, its because they have invested time into different systems and dont believe improvements can be made, its the "we have been doing it this way for years" mentality. This isnt ment as an insult just an observation but is a key basic/barrier in change management. 

You like a sporting contest that doesnt have an outcome, fair enough but it is not the way modern sport is going. 

I would tweak the GP though and look to the NFL for inspiration, you can only win intially with a try/TD, if you kick a field goal in your first possesion then the opponent gets a drive with the ball. If they score a field goal it then goes to GP

Edited by yipyee

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33 minutes ago, yipyee said:

Your entitled to your opinion, i have clearly said that people who dont like change will not like moving away from draws, in general older people are less suceptable to change, its because they have invested time into different systems and dont believe improvements can be made, its the "we have been doing it this way for years" mentality. This isnt ment as an insult just an observation but is a key basic/barrier in change management. 

You like a sporting contest that doesnt have an outcome, fair enough but it is not the way modern sport is going. 

I would tweak the GP though and look to the NFL for inspiration, you can only win intially with a try/TD, if you kick a field goal in your first possesion then the opponent gets a drive with the ball. If they score a field goal it then goes to GP

A draw is an outcome though, the teams are equal and share the points. 

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Wasn`t that long ago we awarded a point for losing by 12 or less and that didn`t go down well either ...........Personally a wins a win and a draws a draw award points for just that.............golden point is just as big a farce as penalty shoot outs in football .

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3 hours ago, Eddie said:

A draw is an outcome though, the teams are equal and share the points. 

Not in binary and that is what sports about, win or loose

A Draw is a way of giving up rather than carry on to see who wants it the most and who has the stamina to keep going.

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