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League Restructure Thread (Merged Threads)


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17 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

I'm not going to argue with you, I'm grateful for your opinions, I'm hoping to generate more.

Your mind seems to be made up. You've focused though, on only one aspect of the plan which you believe will not deliver the benefit claimed. Ok. Do you see any merit, any positives in Martin's plan? 

Are there any other opinions out there? Anyone think the plan is a good 'un?

No I don't see anything in it. It is fantasy land. If RL was like football played in huge towns and cities all across the UK for decades then something like this could have basis for discussion.

Sky have given the whole game £50m over 2 years for SL and said you are on notice. The Championship and League has secured £0 in TV money. Zilch, nothing, not a penny. The next offer could be £15m per season take it or leave it or even £10m.

Does anyone really believe the conversation to get that £25m per season to £75m per season in the next 5-10 years involves Batley, Swinton, Whitehaven, Keighley, Rochdale, Dewsbury etc. in any way shape or form?

Edited by Scubby
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56 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Yes York. They are struggling now (for other reasons) but during the last 2-3 years have got record crowds for Challenge Cup games (over 3000 v Catalans) and League fixtures (even playing at a falling down football stadium). Covid killed its momentum with the new stadium which was pretty sad, but there was momentum and a huge buzz at the club going into 2020.

Yep next year they will be back on track.  Get a decent CC  draw next year for telly and they will prove a few doubters wrong. 

Also people using the we had 14 before is odd.  Last time we had 14 was in 2014.  Since then we have Toulouse ready, ambitious Newcastle with modern stadium and York well placed.  

We've enough for a 14 team SL.

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1 minute ago, Scubby said:

Does anyone really believe the conversation to get that £25m per season to £75m per season in the next 5-10 years involves Batley, Swinton, Whitehaven, Keighley, Rochdale, Dewsbury etc. in any way shape or form?

It might make sense if you think you could sell more rugby league newspapers in those places and others like Llanelli, Haringey, Coventry and Colwyn Bay…

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1 minute ago, Man of Kent said:

It might make sense if you think you could sell more rugby league newspapers in those places and others like Llanelli, Haringey, Coventry and Colwyn Bay…

Yep newspapers and 2021 - sums it up really.

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44 minutes ago, Griff said:

It would be interesting to know exactly what Sky's criticism is.  If they don't want to keep showing the same old clubs, then it'd be crazy to cut $uperleague down to ten clubs.  But, if the criticism is that the games are too predictable with too many blow-out scores, then cutting to ten makes some sense, albeit that I thnk there'll still be blow-out scores and it won't be much of a solution.

There's not too many blow out scores, I suspect they are not asking for ten, we are proposing it as we want to spread the money between fewer teams 

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35 minutes ago, Scubby said:

No I don't see anything in it. It is fantasy land. If RL was like football played in huge towns and cities all across the UK for decades then something like this could have basis for discussion.

Sky have given the whole game £50m over 2 years for SL and said you are on notice. The Championship and League has secured £0 in TV money. Zilch, nothing, not a penny. The next offer could be £15m per season take it or leave it or even £10m.

Does anyone really believe the conversation to get that £25m per season to £75m per season in the next 5-10 years involves Batley, Swinton, Whitehaven, Keighley, Rochdale, Dewsbury etc. in any way shape or form?

Well I can't force you to think about it.

If you believe it's so unlikely to be adopted, it doesn't warrant the time to think about it, then fair enough.

Martin himself said that he didn't expect it to be taken up by the RFL, which doesn't mean he didn't believe in it himself.

I take your point about the championship not being able to generate tv money, but all the ''attractive'' games that SKY relish would still take place with Martins plan, going on between teams of players who are better rested with less injuries (perhaps) and backed up with younger players, better prepared by being included in the (mismatched) games with lesser clubs.

This might lead to higher quality games and an improvement in the spectacle provided by the top clubs, that SKY want. 

The system also provides more opportunities for rapidly developing clubs to climb the ladder faster.

Sky may not want to televise games featuring Batley, Swinton....et al but they might be ideal fodder for the Our League format, which may generate additional revenues.

Martins plan is alive with novelty, and opportunity for really ambitious clubs and loads for fans to get interested in. 

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17 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

Well I can't force you to think about it.

If you believe it's so unlikely to be adopted, it doesn't warrant the time to think about it, then fair enough.

Martin himself said that he didn't expect it to be taken up by the RFL, which doesn't mean he didn't believe in it himself.

I take your point about the championship not being able to generate tv money, but all the ''attractive'' games that SKY relish would still take place with Martins plan, going on between teams of players who are better rested with less injuries (perhaps) and backed up with younger players, better prepared by being included in the (mismatched) games with lesser clubs.

This might lead to higher quality games and an improvement in the spectacle provided by the top clubs, that SKY want. 

The system also provides more opportunities for rapidly developing clubs to climb the ladder faster.

Sky may not want to televise games featuring Batley, Swinton....et al but they might be ideal fodder for the Our League format, which may generate additional revenues.

Martins plan is alive with novelty, and opportunity for really ambitious clubs and loads for fans to get interested in. 

I just don't agree. The game should be pretty ruthless at the moment. If the sport thinks there is potential in Newcastle, Coventry, Wales, Bradford and London then it should give them time and resources to be fast tracked to the elite competition within 3-5 years. It shouldn't create a convoluted system to try and get them fighting through the brambles because it will be fun and inclusive.

If you want to look at how expansion and wealth is created then look more towards the AFL model than the League Express opinion columns.

The equivalent AFL model in RL would be saying Coventry, Newcastle, London, Toulouse (or whoever) will be coming into the competition (and staying in) in 3 years time. Here is £5m each from central funding to build your infrastructure and you will have salary cap exemptions/weightings for the next 10 years (plus marketing help) to assist you to be competitive and recruit the best players you can.

The AFL would have paid Toulouse and Toronto to be part of the competition - not kneecapped them to appease some corner shop traditionalists. That is why the AFL just signed a $2.5b TV deal even in the middle of Covid and the game in the UK has 20 months of the Sky egg timer left.  

The game here would think such a move preposterous and that is why we are skint and declining. 

Edited by Scubby
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For me I think the money and regrowth of the game is from internationals which is why I would lock in a Welsh team and the 2 French ones in a 14 team league.  

Make same offer to anyone in Ireland that we will lock you in permenantly and lock you into an annual comp vs England but you got to stump up the cash first.  

No funding outside of top 14 unless you run an academy and gradually your Newcastles and Yorks will replace your Leighs and Salfords

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3 hours ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

There's not too many blow out scores, I suspect they are not asking for ten, we are proposing it as we want to spread the money between fewer teams 

I didn't suggest that Sky were asking for ten.

Rather that $uperleague saw that as a solution.

Edited by Griff

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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2 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

I guess because they have a contract to show a certain number of games and they would rather show Super League games for the ratings.

Super League has talked before about wanting to broaden their offering/packages to broadcasters. It may be the next deal includes SL2 as a separate package offered to other broadcasters, or there may be a Sky deal that includes a guaranteed number of SL2 games. Who knows? 

You're certainly presenting both sides of the argument with equal enthusiasm.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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2 hours ago, Scubby said:

No I don't see anything in it. It is fantasy land. If RL was like football played in huge towns and cities all across the UK for decades then something like this could have basis for discussion.

Sky have given the whole game £50m over 2 years for SL and said you are on notice. The Championship and League has secured £0 in TV money. Zilch, nothing, not a penny. The next offer could be £15m per season take it or leave it or even £10m.

Does anyone really believe the conversation to get that £25m per season to £75m per season in the next 5-10 years involves Batley, Swinton, Whitehaven, Keighley, Rochdale, Dewsbury etc. in any way shape or form?

No one has ever seen a direct quote from any person,in authority,at Sky Television. 

If they are,' unhappy with the product ' - then that product is the performance of clubs that have been receiving the most funding:The Super League clubs.

Sky television are quite content to pay astronomical amounts of money to a sport played all over the world.I really don't think their viewers in Asia and elsewhere are the slightest bit concerned or interested,that the wonderful Arsenal,West Ham,Tottenham,or a bus stop in Hounslow,Brentford,all play in less than salubrious parts of the capital city of this country.

It is the sport that is important - not where it is played or the names associated with it.

Why don't the elite club owners/governing body/ies inform the plebs what the god of money for the sport actually want before we are left to some very vivid imaginations? I have no doubt the rich will get richer and the not so rich will be ignored and left to rot. 

 

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Regarding the idea of SL 1 and 2, with both consisting of 10 teams. Can we honestly say as a sport we can afford to simply discard and forget about clubs who have history,fans,employees,etc simply because they aren't rated  amongst the 20 top teams in the UK on the day the decision is  made? 

A very sad state of affairs indeed should that ever become the case.

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1 minute ago, Wilderspoolmemories said:

Regarding the idea of SL 1 and 2, with both consisting of 10 teams. Can we honestly say as a sport we can afford to simply discard and forget about clubs who have history,fans,employees,etc simply because they aren't rated  amongst the 20 top teams in the UK on the day the decision is  made? 

A very sad state of affairs indeed should that ever become the case.

Also a SL2 unless it is a conference system is just the championship with less teams and noone is paying to show 2nd tier RL.  

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10 minutes ago, Wilderspoolmemories said:

Regarding the idea of SL 1 and 2, with both consisting of 10 teams. Can we honestly say as a sport we can afford to simply discard and forget about clubs who have history,fans,employees,etc simply because they aren't rated  amongst the 20 top teams in the UK on the day the decision is  made? 

A very sad state of affairs indeed should that ever become the case.

Exactly, technically Barrow are in 25th position at the moment, flying high and are getting crowds comparable with Salford and Leigh atm never mind Batley, Sheffield and Dewsbury.

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2 hours ago, Wilderspoolmemories said:

Regarding the idea of SL 1 and 2, with both consisting of 10 teams. Can we honestly say as a sport we can afford to simply discard and forget about clubs who have history,fans,employees,etc simply because they aren't rated  amongst the 20 top teams in the UK on the day the decision is  made? 

A very sad state of affairs indeed should that ever become the case.

 

2 hours ago, Wilderspoolmemories said:

Regarding the idea of SL 1 and 2, with both consisting of 10 teams. Can we honestly say as a sport we can afford to simply discard and forget about clubs who have history,fans,employees,etc simply because they aren't rated  amongst the 20 top teams in the UK on the day the decision is  made? 

A very sad state of affairs indeed should that ever become the case.

Who is saying "discard and forget about clubs"? 

As far as I can see every club will still be part of the structure and will have the ability to work their way upwards.

It's just that we can't continue to shower cash right down to the bottom of the league when our income's been cut by a third. Or give part time championship clubs half a million a year for that matter. 

Well run clubs will be able to survive such a restructuring and in fact those with a decent fanbases will find themselves quickly rising to the top of their tier. 

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5 hours ago, Scubby said:

No I don't see anything in it. It is fantasy land. If RL was like football played in huge towns and cities all across the UK for decades then something like this could have basis for discussion.

Sky have given the whole game £50m over 2 years for SL and said you are on notice. The Championship and League has secured £0 in TV money. Zilch, nothing, not a penny. The next offer could be £15m per season take it or leave it or even £10m.

Does anyone really believe the conversation to get that £25m per season to £75m per season in the next 5-10 years involves Batley, Swinton, Whitehaven, Keighley, Rochdale, Dewsbury etc. in any way shape or form?

But if we were to look at the wider picture, we'd see that we factored in the whole game in increasing the tv deal for over 20 years to a record £40m per annum. 

I suppose it all depends on whether you believe that the 12 SL clubs can thrive as standalones or these lower teams in the pyramid contribute to the overall health of the game in the country which then strengthens SL. 

I certainly think the game is stronger with these clubs, so they absolutely are part of the discussions on strategy and structure. 

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4 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

It's just that we can't continue to shower cash right down to the bottom of the league when our income's been cut by a third. Or give part time championship clubs half a million a year for that matter. 

Over here we have NRL, the State Cups and then the regional or `Group` competitions, usually made of about 6,8 to 12 teams, the Group Leagues are completely self-funded, they do not receive one cent from the NSWRL or NRL. There is a prize for winning the comp from the NSWRL, but that`s it and it ain`t much and sometimes a team mightn`t win the comp for twenty years so you couldn`t rely on it.

Some of the teams in our competition are based out of small towns of about 6000 residents, some even less, but through sponsorship and ticket sales field competitive sides every year. One thing that is obvious though a lot of ex-players who now are either tradesman or business men in the area are sponsors of the club, I think my Local Team Taree Bulls have about 20 such sponsors who chip in and keep the club going year after year.

I would be interested to know why your League 1 competition couldn`t be the same.

BTW I spoke to our local group president a while back and told him that roughly the same level competition in England got the equivalent of about $150k (AUS) a year central funding and he was dumbfounded.

 

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1 hour ago, The Rocket said:

Over here we have NRL, the State Cups and then the regional or `Group` competitions, usually made of about 6,8 to 12 teams, the Group Leagues are completely self-funded, they do not receive one cent from the NSWRL or NRL. There is a prize for winning the comp from the NSWRL, but that`s it and it ain`t much and sometimes a team mightn`t win the comp for twenty years so you couldn`t rely on it.

Some of the teams in our competition are based out of small towns of about 6000 residents, some even less, but through sponsorship and ticket sales field competitive sides every year. One thing that is obvious though a lot of ex-players who now are either tradesman or business men in the area are sponsors of the club, I think my Local Team Taree Bulls have about 20 such sponsors who chip in and keep the club going year after year.

I would be interested to know why your League 1 competition couldn`t be the same.

BTW I spoke to our local group president a while back and told him that roughly the same level competition in England got the equivalent of about $150k (AUS) a year central funding and he was dumbfounded.

 

What sort of budgets do the clubs in those regional leagues have by comparison to that figure?

Edited by Big Picture
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5 hours ago, Scubby said:

I just don't agree. The game should be pretty ruthless at the moment. If the sport thinks there is potential in Newcastle, Coventry, Wales, Bradford and London then it should give them time and resources to be fast tracked to the elite competition within 3-5 years. It shouldn't create a convoluted system to try and get them fighting through the brambles because it will be fun and inclusive.

If you want to look at how expansion and wealth is created then look more towards the AFL model than the League Express opinion columns.

The equivalent AFL model in RL would be saying Coventry, Newcastle, London, Toulouse (or whoever) will be coming into the competition (and staying in) in 3 years time. Here is £5m each from central funding to build your infrastructure and you will have salary cap exemptions/weightings for the next 10 years (plus marketing help) to assist you to be competitive and recruit the best players you can.

The AFL would have paid Toulouse and Toronto to be part of the competition - not kneecapped them to appease some corner shop traditionalists. That is why the AFL just signed a $2.5b TV deal even in the middle of Covid and the game in the UK has 20 months of the Sky egg timer left.  

The game here would think such a move preposterous and that is why we are skint and declining. 

Totally agree with every single word of this ^^^

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19 hours ago, Eddie said:

I imagine if TO go up the SL clubs (sorry independent SL board) will think of a reason not to give them any funding, like they did Toronto and (in part) Leigh. It’s pathetic really, sometimes I find it hard to rationalise why I still watch and love super league. 

If Toulouse win the Championship grand final and are denied a place in Super League by some obscure rule that they have made up on the hoof by the Independent SL board (cough cough) or are denied full funding that will drive even more fans away from the game. Crowds are dropping and some people believe they would return this season but they won't. The independent SL board (LOL) seem determined to make Super League a M.62 Corridor game and then watch most of the remaining sponsors drop off or offer a reduced rate to clubs and it will be a case of the clubs being told take it or leave it.

The game is heading into the abyss unless Super League clubs look outside the box at the bigger picture. A game played mainly along the M.62 corridor in this country has little appeal to TV companies and sponsors. Wake up Super League clubs and smell the coffee.

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9 hours ago, Scubby said:

No I don't see anything in it. It is fantasy land. If RL was like football played in huge towns and cities all across the UK for decades then something like this could have basis for discussion.

Sky have given the whole game £50m over 2 years for SL and said you are on notice. The Championship and League has secured £0 in TV money. Zilch, nothing, not a penny. The next offer could be £15m per season take it or leave it or even £10m.

Does anyone really believe the conversation to get that £25m per season to £75m per season in the next 5-10 years involves Batley, Swinton, Whitehaven, Keighley, Rochdale, Dewsbury etc. in any way shape or form?

You seem to be advocating cutting off your feet in order to stand taller.

Edited by Blind side johnny
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Sport, amongst other things, is a dream-world offering escape from harsh reality and the disturbing prospect of change.

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16 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

You seem to be advocating cutting off your feet in order to stand taller.

Not at all. More like trying to stay afloat while wearing lead boots.

There is no way you can effectively fund the semi professional game without creating as much money as you can from your premier product.

If you can earn £50m you can push 10-15% of that into the semi pro and community game. If you are ####ing about pretending you will get £15m and the top clubs will keep it all in order to survive. League 1 clubs will get 0.

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If Toulouse are in Super League then there would be double the amount of games in France to sell to French broadcasters and if Ottawa takes off then there is another chance to gain a foothold in North America.

What will probably happen is that the SL Clubs will say that they have no commercial value and make it known that they don’t want them. They are probably praying for the day that Catalans finish in a relegation place so they can get shut of them and then will continue to wonder why TV or sponsors aren’t interested in them.

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6 minutes ago, Liverpool Rover said:

If Toulouse are in Super League then there would be double the amount of games in France to sell to French broadcasters and if Ottawa takes off then there is another chance to gain a foothold in North America.

What will probably happen is that the SL Clubs will say that they have no commercial value and make it known that they don’t want them. They are probably praying for the day that Catalans finish in a relegation place so they can get shut of them and then will continue to wonder why TV or sponsors aren’t interested in them.

And crowds continue to drop

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  • John Drake changed the title to League Restructure Thread (Merged Threads)

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