Castleford stadium.

[The 4 of Us]

https://www.totalrl.com/castleford-tigers-managing-director-on-super-league-stadium-redevelopment-with-two-plans-now-in-place/

Sharing this from news section in case it had passed people by.

Couldn’t quite believe what I was reading. 

Is it correct that any team will get an extra IMG point for planning permission only for a unfunded architects drawing?

If so, it appears that Cas are positioning the Wakefield Council as the fall guys in the event they don’t unduly rush any decision?

The first draft is in his mind, as are the follow up presumably.

And if the council don’t do whats needed soon enough, they’ll spend £2M on sticking plasters?

 

Edited September 11, 2023 by The 4 of Us

[Damien]

That sounds atrocious and plan B sounds like it would be a complete waste of £2 million rather than fundamentally improve the stadium as Wakefield have done.

[Dave T]

Im not sure what the question is in the Op. 

It reads to me that Cas might make short term investments to bring facilities to standard rather than have this ongoing soap opera where funding may come in three years, or it may not. 

It feels to me like that is exactly what people want - force action instead of kicking the ca down the road all the time and the it getting cancelled in three years. 

One thing I do find a little silly now is how the media and people within the game keep referring to this as IMG's thing. That hardly suggests it is fully embraced. It is SL grading, and it is clear that some are keeping their distance from it by referring to it as they are. 

[The Hallucinating Goose]

What he says in the article is reasonable to me. Basically, they want to get full planning permission for a major redevelopment but if they can't then the council have given them some money to make improvements to bring the ground to bring it up to the minimum requirements needed which he lists in the article. Pretty straight forward. 

[Fevrover]

Fev,cas and Wakey all got 2 million pounds from the council and i 'am sure it wasn't for the grounds. It was for use in the community if i'am not mistaken, hopefully another fan will remember more.

[Hopie]

Sounds like madness, if they don't get the full development that they need in the long term then instead they will spend all they money they have on a half way house just to get a tick on the grading sheet.

The problem with these "closed shops" is that clubs throw everything at getting in before the door closes, didn't Widnes spend more than they had just to get in before franchises started? Are Fev doing something similar to get in Super League before grading starts this time? 

[Dave T]

Just now, Hopie said:

Sounds like madness, if they don't get the full development that they need in the long term then instead they will spend all they money they have on a half way house just to get a tick on the grading sheet.

The problem with these "closed shops" is that clubs throw everything at getting in before the door closes, didn't Widnes spend more than they had just to get in before franchises started? Are Fev doing something similar to get in Super League before grading starts this time? 

It isn't just a tick on a spreadsheet, it's entirely the wrong way to look at it. 

They will spend money on modernising facilities which is what minimum standards are all about. 

The alternative is waiting for years and something never happening. 

A system that forces clubs to improve facilities is a good one. 

[Tommygilf]

55 minutes ago, Fevrover said:

Fev,cas and Wakey all got 2 million pounds from the council and i 'am sure it wasn't for the grounds. It was for use in the community if i'am not mistaken, hopefully another fan will remember more.

Nope, it was the RL resilience fund and can only be drawn down for specific long term infrastructure projects agreed by the council and the club.

Wakey used theirs as part of the funding for the Belle Vue redevelopment.

[Damien]

11 minutes ago, Dave T said:

It isn't just a tick on a spreadsheet, it's entirely the wrong way to look at it. 

They will spend money on modernising facilities which is what minimum standards are all about. 

The alternative is waiting for years and something never happening. 

A system that forces clubs to improve facilities is a good one. 

It's a waste of money renovating areas when it needs a complete redevelopment, along the lines of Wakefield, that will truly help and benefit the club going forward. That will allow the club to really grow and improve revenue streams.

Things like sticking a few padded cushions on seats and condoning off areas does not fundamentally improve the fan experience. It's real sticking plaster stuff and short termism. It's the kind of meeting a check box stuff we have seen clubs do to dodge the various criteria going back all the way to framing the future and all the other reports and requirements since.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Damien

[Kenilworth Tiger]

34 minutes ago, Damien said:

It's a waste of money renovating areas when it needs a complete redevelopment, along the lines of Wakefield, that will truly help and benefit the club going forward. That will allow the club to really grow and improve revenue streams.

Things like sticking a few padded cushions on seats and condoning off areas does not fundamentally improve the fan experience. It's real sticking plaster stuff and short termism. It's the kind of meeting a check box stuff we have seen clubs do to dodge the various criteria going back all the way to framing the future and all the other reports and requirements since.

and your answer to this is.......

[Damien]

5 minutes ago, Kenilworth Tiger said:

and your answer to this is.......

I don't need to give you my answer. The club already announced the answer well over a year ago:

Rather than build a new stadium for Tigers at that location, Highgrove have agreed to provide funds towards major improvements to Wheldon Road.

Funds raised by the proposed new employment development would supplement Wakefield Council’s £2m grant to Castleford Tigers via their Rugby League Resilience Fund, announced at the end of last year.

This mirrors the mechanism of the recent planning approval which provides funds to redevelop Wakefield Trinity’s Belle Vue ground.

Tigers plan to demolish and rebuild the main stand and modernise the existing Princess Street Stand, Railway End and Wheldon Road End.

The development includes new facilities for fans, food and drink outlets, four new changing rooms, a new gymnasium, additional medical and physiotherapy facilities, new staff and foundation offices and hospitality suites.

The new and improved facilities are expected to generate extra income, putting Tigers on an equal footing with other top-flight clubs.

https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/multi-million-redevelopment-plans-castlefords-22950529

[Wollo Wollo Wayoo]

55 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Nope, it was the RL resilience fund and can only be drawn down for specific long term infrastructure projects agreed by the council and the club.

Wakey used theirs as part of the funding for the Belle Vue redevelopment.

There was an inference from WMDC that the projects would be of benefit to grass roots RL and offer increased community use.

Wakefield are using the grant within the whole redevelopment project so can easily demonstrate areas suitably tagged.   Fev can probably demonstrate similar.

Castleford's plan B just utilises the £2m alone and doesn't appear to fulfil either of the requirements.

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Wollo Wollo Wayoo

[The 4 of Us]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

It isn't just a tick on a spreadsheet, it's entirely the wrong way to look at it. 

They will spend money on modernising facilities which is what minimum standards are all about. 

The alternative is waiting for years and something never happening. 

A system that forces clubs to improve facilities is a good one. 

Agree with all that. Unfortunately the CEO appears to see it as per the quote “Plan A is the full redevelopment which ticks every box going”. Makes you wonder if they would be doing much/anything to improve fan experience unless forced, which is partly why the game is in such a mess. 
 

My main question I suppose in OP was the IMG/SL credit for planning permission only. 
 

If so, and that was sufficient to gain Castleford (and others) a place in SL going forward, I couldn’t see any doing much more than the absolute minimum to get and then stay in. 
 

I think that article belies a really dissapointing “just enough” attitude from Castleford’s CEO which would weigh like an anker on any wishes to be SL as a whole. 
 

The game needs a much more ambitious mind set across the professional game.

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

I've said this before but with limited fixtures each year RL teams should share stadiums 

I know it'll never happen but surely Wakey/Fev/Cas could have had 'Calder' stadium to share .??....not a Calder SL team but a decent community stadium with fake pitch that can host 40 or so RL games a year 

Would Cas/Feb/Wakey fans reall not go if they had to travel a few miles rather than walk? The pay off could be a brilliantly modern stadium. Electronic branding that can change for each home game 

Maybe even Hull has its own modern and amazing RL stadium??I know I'll get shot down for this by the way.......

I'll emphasise I know it will never happen and that I am naive and that I don't understand tribal feeling etc......however can the game 'afford' to have so much wasted capacity across dilapidated spaces? 

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Bedfordshire Bronco

[hunsletgreenandgold]

24 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

I've said this before but with limited fixtures each year RL teams should share stadiums 

I know it'll never happen but surely Wakey/Fev/Cas could have had 'Calder' stadium to share .??....not a Calder SL team but a decent community stadium with fake pitch that can host 40 or so RL games a year 

Would Cas/Feb/Wakey fans reall not go if they had to travel a few miles rather than walk? The pay off could be a brilliantly modern stadium. Electronic branding that can change for each home game 

Maybe even Hull has its own modern and amazing RL stadium??I know I'll get shot down for this by the way.......

I'll emphasise I know it will never happen and that I am naive and that I don't understand tribal feeling etc......however can the game 'afford' to have so much wasted capacity across dilapidated spaces? 

 

You lost me at 'fake pitch'.

The ship has sailed, the horse has bolted and Wakey are redeveloping their stadium. The above might happen one day, but not in the next 10-15 years and who knows where they'll be as clubs by then. 

[Dave T]

2 hours ago, Damien said:

It's a waste of money renovating areas when it needs a complete redevelopment, along the lines of Wakefield, that will truly help and benefit the club going forward. That will allow the club to really grow and improve revenue streams.

Things like sticking a few padded cushions on seats and condoning off areas does not fundamentally improve the fan experience. It's real sticking plaster stuff and short termism. It's the kind of meeting a check box stuff we have seen clubs do to dodge the various criteria going back all the way to framing the future and all the other reports and requirements since.

I'm not saying this is the best option, but if you can't get, say, £15m funding sorted for a new ground, it's a bit silly not to bother spending any money improving things. 

It's up to Cas to pull together the best plans that they can deliver, but spending a couple of million improving facilities should be applauded. 

 

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

29 minutes ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

You lost me at 'fake pitch'.

The ship has sailed, the horse has bolted and Wakey are redeveloping their stadium. The above might happen one day, but not in the next 10-15 years and who knows where they'll be as clubs by then. 

Wakey's new fake pitch is great ....means a lot more games/events can happen and RL clubs make money 

[Damien]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

I'm not saying this is the best option, but if you can't get, say, £15m funding sorted for a new ground, it's a bit silly not to bother spending any money improving things. 

It's up to Cas to pull together the best plans that they can deliver, but spending a couple of million improving facilities should be applauded. 

They have funding and good plans were announced last year based upon that funding. If plan B simply sees that money used as a short term sticking plaster at the expense of real, long term development (aka plan A), development which could really benefit the club and place them on a much more sustainable financial footing, then its a poor option.

[Archie Gordon]

It's a weirdly short-term view to spend some (all?) of the £2m on patching up WR for a year. You don't usually plan a sunk cost. I suppose it makes sense if both these things are true: the spend is much closer to £0 than £2m and it means that you don't lose your top-12 ranking for a year.

Actually, I guess there's a third thing at play: that your fear is not a delay to Plan A but, rather, you don't expect Plan A to happen.

If Plan A is going to happen - even if it happens a year later than first thought - patching up WR at non-trivial cost in the meantime seems like a waste of scarce resources.

[Barley Mow]

13 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

It's a weirdly short-term view to spend some (all?) of the £2m on patching up WR for a year. You don't usually plan a sunk cost. I suppose it makes sense if both these things are true: the spend is much closer to £0 than £2m and it means that you don't lose your top-12 ranking for a year.

Actually, I guess there's a third thing at play: that your fear is not a delay to Plan A but, rather, you don't expect Plan A to happen.

If Plan A is going to happen - even if it happens a year later than first thought - patching up WR at non-trivial cost in the meantime seems like a waste of scarce resources.

I think the issue with 'Plan A' is that even once Castleford have got planning permission for the development, they won't be able to begin until the future of the Axiom site is resolved.

As I understand it, the Axiom developers are due to part fund the development at Wheldon Road (in lieu of the new stadium on the Axiom site). Until they have a permission (with s.106 legal agreement, etc) that they are happy with and ready to implement for the Axiom site, then that part of the funding for redeveloping Wheldon Road won't be forthcoming.

Castleford are obviously worried that they may get their own planning permission but then be left waiting for years for the Axiom funds to come through and allow development to begin. In the meantime Wheldon Road is a disadvantage to them in their grading and so they're looking to do anything they can during those years.

It is very similar to the situation Wakefield were in about 5 years ago - Do you allow the ground to further crumble (or at best get no better) while you wait for a large chunk of promised funding, or do you spend some of your limited resources for the main scheme on making short term improvements while you wait?

Edited September 12, 2023 by Barley Mow

[Archie Gordon]

6 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

I think the issue with 'Plan A' is that even once Castleford have got planning permission for the development, they won't be able to begin until the future of the Axiom site is resolved.

As I understand it, the Axiom developers are due to part fund the development at Wheldon Road (in lieu of the new stadium on the Axiom site). Until they have a permission (with s.106 legal agreement, etc) that they are happy with and ready to implement for the Axiom site, then that part of the funding for redeveloping Wheldon Road won't be forthcoming.

Castleford are obviously worried that they may get their own planning permission but then be left waiting for years for the Axiom funds to come through and allow development to begin. In the meantime Wheldon Road is a disadvantage to them in their grading and so they're looking to do anything they can during those years.

It is very similar to the situation Wakefield were in about 5 years ago - Do you allow the ground to further crumble (or at best get no better) while you wait for a large chunk of promised funding, or do you spend some of your limited resources for the main scheme on making short term improvements while you wait?

Ah, thanks. The Cas CEO may come across to some like a hopeless optimist then. He's talking about starting work next season.

I'm still of the view that spending up to £2m of the £15m needed for Plan A is a bit like taking off your front door to throw it on the fire to keep you warm. And really odd that Cas has reached this point before thinking a Plan B might be needed. I also did like the idea that a ground without enough seats could have enough seats by moving some of them across the pitch to the opposite stand!

 

[Wollo Wollo Wayoo]

45 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'm not saying this is the best option, but if you can't get, say, £15m funding sorted for a new ground, it's a bit silly not to bother spending any money improving things. 

It's up to Cas to pull together the best plans that they can deliver, but spending a couple of million improving facilities should be applauded. 

 

But the money was provided by the MDC as an addon to compliment a larger development and be of benefit to grass roots RL and the local community.  Not comfy chairs for execs and more space for John Wilkin's head.

[Dave T]

54 minutes ago, Damien said:

They have funding and good plans were announced last year based upon that funding. If plan B simply sees that money used as a short term sticking plaster at the expense of real, long term development (aka plan A), development which could really benefit the club and place them on a much more sustainable financial footing, then its a poor option.

Call me a cynic, but if they are prepared to spend this money then that suggests the long term plan isn't as certain as being made out. Especially when he talks about things like maybe needed 3 years or so for funding to come around.

[Dave T]

42 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

 

Castleford are obviously worried that they may get their own planning permission but then be left waiting for years for the Axiom funds to come through and allow development to begin. In the meantime Wheldon Road is a disadvantage to them in their grading and so they're looking to do anything they can during those years.

Yep - this is clearly the problem. In fact what we are talking about is what clubs like this have been criticised for for the last 30 years. Plans that fall away and don't materialise, and we have failed to modernise the existing facilities.

[hunsletgreenandgold]

1 hour ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Wakey's new fake pitch is great ....means a lot more games/events can happen and RL clubs make money 

It's not a fake pitch.