Post Season International Promotion and Attendances

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

So we play France down south then?

I'd take that, definitely.

[Damien]

36 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

So we play France down south then?

I've long said we should. Playing that game at places like Leigh and Warrington as the supposed safe bet, despite many RL fans just turning up their noses at France as opposition, is just crazy.

[crashmon]

You would get more playing France in London then in North West IMHO, if you marketed it right. Remember we see so little International RL in London, you get people in just owing to how rare it is

[JM2010]

8 minutes ago, Damien said:

I've long said we should. Playing that game at places like Leigh and Warrington as the supposed safe bet, despite many RL fans just turning up their noses at France as opposition, is just crazy.

A similar sized venue down South might sell better as they would hopefully be attracted to it being an England game rather than seeing it as a nothing match against France like a lot of us up here seem to do

[Damien]

2 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

A similar sized venue down South might sell better as they would hopefully be attracted to it being an England game rather than seeing it as a nothing match against France like a lot of us up here seem to do

Exactly and even if England did win handsomely those fans will go away happy after watching a big England win and some great tries. They won't moan like many RL 'purists'.

[Gomersall]

On 19/09/2023 at 14:30, fighting irish said:

I bought Grand Final tickets from the RFL about a year ago. Not heard anything since. Has anyone had their tickets yet? I'm starting to get anxious, since the hotel, travel arrangements are all made.

You won’t get your GF tickets until about a week before the match fi. Nothing unusual, it’s like that every year

[Wellsy4HullFC]

55 minutes ago, Damien said:

I've long said we should. Playing that game at places like Leigh and Warrington as the supposed safe bet, despite many RL fans just turning up their noses at France as opposition, is just crazy.

It's like the opposite of what's being said here about Tonga. Southerners would turn their noses up at little Tonga as viable national competitors to a country our size. Big powerful France however...

[gingerjon]

11 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

It's like the opposite of what's being said here about Tonga. Southerners would turn their noses up at little Tonga as viable national competitors to a country our size. Big powerful France however...

Thing is, the person saying British sports fans turn their noses up at Tonga is wrong.

Regardless, constantly playing England v France, or England v whoever, in a 'will this do' budget fashion leads to diminishing returns and calls for the even less appealing county games to come back so they can have their three seasons before being dropped.

If you played just one England game outside the heartlands a year, its impact would be significantly larger than four in the heartlands. I honestly have no idea why it's not done.

[pahars]

I’m not sure why I’ve been tagged in to this thread. But anyway recent Union results suggest island nations are now considered a credible threat to general ‘rugby’ fans. 
 

In cricket Sri Lanka pop 20 million have won T20 world finals against India 20 % of World population. 
 

In football China and India suck and England’s most successful WC campaign for 30 years got ended to a nation with the same population as Yorkshire. 
 

It’s all about the narrative of what you are seeing and making an event out of it. 

[gingerjon]

The good people of Motherwell are having to consult their Oxford Encyclopaedia of the World to determine whether or not Finland are credible opponents worthy of their time.

[Sports Prophet]

On 20/09/2023 at 17:18, crashmon said:

The point is that the opposition is irrelevent. You make a big play of England RL in London, you make england the attraction not who they are playing.

You fix dates and venues three years in advance, as you will find the 72 hours after the game will be the time most people still buzzing from the experience is when they buy tickets.

about 20 ish years ago I went to see 49ers vs Broncos at Wembley for the NFL London game.  The game was ###### (both teams where weak at the time and both having bad seasons), but the game was a sellout, and every NFL top was represented, around us was sat Bears fans, Dolphins fans, Rams fans (not Dewsbury sadly) etc.   And most people we sat with went to the game every year, regardless of who was actually playing.   Come forward 20 years and we have 3 games now in London every year.

People come to the event.  You make the England games in London an event and people will come.

I mainly disagree on the basis that England plays against France in RL and gets a pathetic turn out, so the theory that you just take England down south and you fill out a 60k stadium doesn’t stack up.

[gingerjon]

5 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

I mainly disagree on the basis that England plays against France in RL and gets a pathetic turn out, so the theory that you just take England down south and you fill out a 60k stadium doesn’t stack up.

Good if you to completely make up what people are saying 

[Sports Prophet]

7 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Good if you to completely make up what people are saying 

What do you mean?

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, Sports Prophet said:

What do you mean?

Nobody, literally no one, not a single person, has even implied a 60k crowd for England v France anywhere.

[Sports Prophet]

1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

Nobody, literally no one, not a single person, has even implied a 60k crowd for England v France anywhere.

Pardon my assumption, but what are we talking about here? People on here are suggesting that the opposition doesn’t matter and it’s as simple as taking England RL to London and “make and event” out of it and the fans will flock in.

Are we talking about playing in London at Brentford in front of sub 20k crowd?

Must be my fault for assuming the idea of taking a match to London is to take advantage of packing a reasonably larger sized stadium than your average RL ground.

[Sports Prophet]

I think what is being overlooked is the credibility factor.

A WC comes with immediate credibility, simply by virtue of the event which it is. So getting a good crowd in a large stadium in London for a WC is in turn an immediately easier a task.

Where a matchup lacks the credibility of the event itself, it is desperately reliant on the hard core fans to believe in the event to drive its way into public consciousness. We see that fall flat in the heartlands against France and delivers miserable results.

I don’t dispute Tonga is a much bigger draw for RL fans than France, but I am not even confident the RFL could fill out Brentford, Loftus or The Den for England v Tonga.

[Damien]

34 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

I think what is being overlooked is the credibility factor.

A WC comes with immediate credibility, simply by virtue of the event which it is. So getting a good crowd in a large stadium in London for a WC is in turn an immediately easier a task.

Where a matchup lacks the credibility of the event itself, it is desperately reliant on the hard core fans to believe in the event to drive its way into public consciousness. We see that fall flat in the heartlands against France and delivers miserable results.

I don’t dispute Tonga is a much bigger draw for RL fans than France, but I am not even confident the RFL could fill out Brentford, Loftus or The Den for England v Tonga.

There is a wealth of evidence to show that we get our best international crowds in London, going back decades. Tests against New Zealand and Australia have always got good attendances both in and outside World Cups. The only match against a Pacific Island team, in Samoa, drew 40,489. Yes granted in a World Cup but there is far more anecdotal evidence pointing towards us getting a significantly better attendance versus a Tonga or France in London than in the heartlands. There is none to back up the view that we wouldn't.

Anyone that has been to internationals in London knows that the makeup of the crowd is vastly different to when England play in the heartlands and they just want to see England play Rugby League and be entertained. I honestly don't think fans outside the RL heartlands are as snobbish about these things.

[crashmon]

39 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

I think what is being overlooked is the credibility factor.

A WC comes with immediate credibility, simply by virtue of the event which it is. So getting a good crowd in a large stadium in London for a WC is in turn an immediately easier a task.

Where a matchup lacks the credibility of the event itself, it is desperately reliant on the hard core fans to believe in the event to drive its way into public consciousness. We see that fall flat in the heartlands against France and delivers miserable results.

I don’t dispute Tonga is a much bigger draw for RL fans than France, but I am not even confident the RFL could fill out Brentford, Loftus or The Den for England v Tonga.

Ok Let me explain.

After the WC semi final the people I took to that game enjoyed it, and they would have come to a London test this year regardless of who England played.  This is not because they are RL converts, not because they are changing there views on the game vs Union or Soccer, but because watching England play RL was a fun thing to do.

We could have played andorra and they would have bought tickets to a test this year, just based on what they saw last year.

My whole point is that if you commit to playing once match every year in London, and do it for at lest 10 years, if you market it right and sell it right you will probably see attendances grow over the years.

So 2023 you get 20K in Brentford
If marketed right, 2024 you get 25K.   2025 you get 32K etc

Playing in the heartlands attendances are going down year on year.

London needs to be seen as a long term investment at International level.

Let me put this another way, if every England RU club went part time, and Engalnd RU playes had to play in france for club games, you will still sell out twickenham every  six nations match. What we are building is an England RL presence in London here.

I don't think your ever going to get club RL established in London, but if you can get International RL an event like the 6 nations is that should be the aim.  But its a 10-20 year aim, not a 3 year lets see aim

[crashmon]

Let me try and sum it up in 2 bullet points

• People in the heartlands go to an England RL international as its a Rugby League game which happens to features England
• The London Demographic will go to an England RL game as its England playing and the sport happens to be Rugby League

Thats at least after a) growing up in north west, but b) having 20+ years living in the south when speaking to people about RL

Edited September 22, 2023 by crashmon

[Sports Prophet]

52 minutes ago, crashmon said:

Ok Let me explain.

After the WC semi final the people I took to that game enjoyed it, and they would have come to a London test this year regardless of who England played.  This is not because they are RL converts, not because they are changing there views on the game vs Union or Soccer, but because watching England play RL was a fun thing to do.

We could have played andorra and they would have bought tickets to a test this year, just based on what they saw last year.

My whole point is that if you commit to playing once match every year in London, and do it for at lest 10 years, if you market it right and sell it right you will probably see attendances grow over the years.

So 2023 you get 20K in Brentford
If marketed right, 2024 you get 25K.   2025 you get 32K etc

Playing in the heartlands attendances are going down year on year.

London needs to be seen as a long term investment at International level.

Let me put this another way, if every England RU club went part time, and Engalnd RU playes had to play in france for club games, you will still sell out twickenham every  six nations match. What we are building is an England RL presence in London here.

Yeah that’s fair but of course they had a great time at England v Samoa, it was a fabulous game. Would they have enjoyed themselves as much for a 60-0 drubbing? Probably not. So all I am saying is that the opponent and the context in which the match is played is very important for an enjoyable experience and a potential for repeat attendance. To say the opponent doesn’t matter is just not true.

Host a match in London every year for ten years, yeah, I think that’s a good idea, but this build it and they will come stuff is short of the mark. It takes an equal mix of a brilliant strategy and marketing campaign delivered to an high standard along with competitive opponents to make it successful.

57 minutes ago, Damien said:

There is a wealth of evidence to show that we get our best international crowds in London, going back decades….

There is none to back up the view that we wouldn't.

 

I wouldn’t call England v Tonga in 2006 at the Stoop in front of less than 2,500 as no evidence. In fact it is the only evidence of these two teams playing each other in London since the 90s.

Being the only game in the last 25 years played in London that wasn’t either a high stakes WC fixture or in a Four Nations match against Australia, I would say it’s more evidence than you have supplied to the contrary.

[gingerjon]

6 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

Yeah that’s fair but of course they had a great time at England v Samoa, it was a fabulous game. Would they have enjoyed themselves as much for a 60-0 drubbing? Probably not. So all I am saying is that the opponent and the context in which the match is played is very important for an enjoyable experience and a potential for repeat attendance. To say the opponent doesn’t matter is just not true.

Host a match in London every year for ten years, yeah, I think that’s a good idea, but this build it and they will come stuff is short of the mark. It takes an equal mix of a brilliant strategy and marketing campaign delivered to an high standard along with competitive opponents to make it successful.

I wouldn’t call England v Tonga in 2006 at the Stoop in front of less than 2,500 as no evidence. In fact it is the only evidence of these two teams playing each other in London since the 90s.

Being the only game in the last 25 years played in London that wasn’t either a high stakes WC fixture or in a Four Nations match against Australia, I would say it’s more evidence than you have supplied to the contrary.

England A.

[Damien]

13 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

I wouldn’t call England v Tonga in 2006 at the Stoop in front of less than 2,500 as no evidence. In fact it is the only evidence of these two teams playing each other in London since the 90s.

Being the only game in the last 25 years played in London that wasn’t either a high stakes WC fixture or in a Four Nations match against Australia, I would say it’s more evidence than you have supplied to the contrary.

I would. Counting what was the England A team playing in a Federations Cup against a poor Tonga, pre heritage players, whilst Great Britain were playing in a Tri-Nations down under is as irrelevant as it gets.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Damien

[crashmon]

1 hour ago, Sports Prophet said:

 

Host a match in London every year for ten years, yeah, I think that’s a good idea, but this build it and they will come stuff is short of the mark. It takes an equal mix of a brilliant strategy and marketing campaign delivered to an high standard along with competitive opponents to make it successful.

 

On this I am 100% in agreement, you can't just stage it and expect people will come, you have to make it an event, call it the London or England smash, market League as smash Mouth rugby with the big hits followed by the little guys (al rob Burrow) running circles around the larger men. You need stoires around the game, you need to big it up in ways to get the interest.

the point that annoys people around London is that the Semi Final drummed up loads of interest in RL, and we have a real oppurtunity here to really give England RL in London a start.  Everybody at the time remembered Samoa (not now far too late), so you could have sold it as the Revenge tour, Marketed Tonga as Big Brother of Samoa, and played up on the SF loss as much as possible for this game.

Just a huge missed opportunity, and for a lot of RL fans in the south it really annoys us that once again RL is shown to be a small abstract sport which outside of a small shrinking area is completly unknown and insignificant. 

Edited September 22, 2023 by crashmon

[Sports Prophet]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

I would. Counting what was the England A team playing in a Federations Cup against a poor Tonga, pre heritage players, whilst Great Britain were playing in a Tri-Nations down under is as irrelevant as it gets.

I think that only reinforces my point.

Back to the topic, still no-one able to share any meaningful promo/marketing material for this series?

I doubt anyone would be surprised to hear the promo down under has gone a bit quiet in the build up to the GF. I can’t seem to find Aus fox promos to share.

With Eden Park in the mix, I am guessing the down under series will have the highest aggregate and average crowds.

[gingerjon]

First direct promo to buy tickets for the England-Tonga series in my Facebook feed this morning.