Fri 22nd Sept: SL: Leigh Leopards v Wigan Warriors KO 20:00 (Sky)

[LeeF]

14 hours ago, phiggins said:

Yes I do realise that. While I disagree with the decision reached, I have a broader issue with the fact that we have a system in place, asking the video ref to decide whether or not to overrule the on field ref, with minimal technology to support him in that job.

Personally, I’d rather have no video ref, than a video ref at every game 

You’ve hit the nail on the head with regards to the Leigh no try decision. It was down to the lack of the correct camera angle which is the risk with the limited number of cameras used and that is only going to get worse next season with a very limited number of cameras being used

[Harry Stottle]

39 minutes ago, phiggins said:

Of the three sports that I follow in any detail (RL, Cricket, Football), cricket has by far done the best job of developing it's use of technology to help officials. As well as updating it's protocols (number of reviews, use of soft signal, when you lose a review), there has been a ton of work done to improve the technology. Ball tracking has been worked on to improve it's level of confidence and managed to win over a reluctant BCCI. Ultra edge is now available, after initially being something that would take too long to use in DRS, meaning the fairly unreliable hotspot became a thing of the past.

You are right, in that a lot of the items used in cricket isn't transferable, as decisions like obstruction will always be a subjective call. But it is a real shame that nearly 30 years on from bringing in the video ref, we still have not got any technology to offer a VR any visual clues on things like whether a player is onside from the kick, or if they are within 10 metres, whether a ball travelled forward in relation to the ground or even if a ball has gone between the sticks from a drop goal / kick at goal. This combined with the fact that we seem to have a relatively low number of cameras at televised games compared to other sports, and the ones that are there don't seem particularly good quality (as soon as slow motion, or any attempt to get a close up, just results in a blur) makes the VR job pretty diffucult. Adding the on field call renders it virtually redundant imo.

Given the sport seems to have neither the money or the will to introduce any better technology to assist, I'd sooner scrap the VR altogether.

For all the accolades we are giving to the NRL and the 'Bunker', in yesterday's game a try scored by the Bronco's contained not one but two forward passes the first one was not marginal it was a couple of meters at least, it was close to half way and in line with the camera, also the ref was virtually in line with play for both passes, and all three commentators called them as forward.

In the Olympics in the swimming race events, there is a super imposed line that travels up the pool showing World record times positions which is relevant to the actual competitors position, this could be adapted to show the relative position of the travel of the ball from the passer to the reciever of the ball for forward passes, ah but what about the momentum rule someone will ask, in Cricket we can assimilate the ball tacking relative to it's speed,  bounce and angle of travel,  it doesn't matter that the ball has stopped because it hits the batsman pads we can still see its forward monentum, then surley the same technology could be adapted to assimilate the passer relative to the travel of the ball including his momentum from the balls release to when it hits the reciever. What do you think?

By the way I believe the NRL 'Bunker' to be better than our system, and considering if we go ahead with televising every game with a VR why not have the same adjudication panel at a central location for each game for continuity and hopefully consistency, instead of a different at each game.

[Harry Stottle]

27 minutes ago, LeeF said:

You’ve hit the nail on the head with regards to the Leigh no try decision. It was down to the lack of the correct camera angle which is the risk with the limited number of cameras used and that is only going to get worse next season with a very limited number of cameras being used

 I was at the game and stood in an advantageous position to see the incident live, I was astounded that the ref questioned the validity of the score for obstruction, the ref was most probably in the same position as I was in relation to longitudinally along the ground but I was higher up and most probably had a better view.

So where do you consider the best camera angles to be?

 

[Dunbar]

33 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

For all the accolades we are giving to the NRL and the 'Bunker', in yesterday's game a try scored by the Bronco's contained not one but two forward passes the first one was not marginal it was a couple of meters at least, it was close to half way and in line with the camera, also the ref was virtually in line with play for both passes, and all three commentators called them as forward.

In the Olympics in the swimming race events, there is a super imposed line that travels up the pool showing World record times positions which is relevant to the actual competitors position, this could be adapted to show the relative position of the travel of the ball from the passer to the reciever of the ball for forward passes, ah but what about the momentum rule someone will ask, in Cricket we can assimilate the ball tacking relative to it's speed,  bounce and angle of travel,  it doesn't matter that the ball has stopped because it hits the batsman pads we can still see its forward monentum, then surley the same technology could be adapted to assimilate the passer relative to the travel of the ball including his momentum from the balls release to when it hits the reciever. What do you think?

By the way I believe the NRL 'Bunker' to be better than our system, and considering if we go ahead with televising every game with a VR why not have the same adjudication panel at a central location for each game for continuity and hopefully consistency, instead of a different at each game.

Really not sure why you are using a forward pass to bemoan the bunker when they are specifically not allowed to rule on forward passes.

[sam4731]

36 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

For all the accolades we are giving to the NRL and the 'Bunker', in yesterday's game a try scored by the Bronco's contained not one but two forward passes the first one was not marginal it was a couple of meters at least, it was close to half way and in line with the camera, also the ref was virtually in line with play for both passes, and all three commentators called them as forward.

In the Olympics in the swimming race events, there is a super imposed line that travels up the pool showing World record times positions which is relevant to the actual competitors position, this could be adapted to show the relative position of the travel of the ball from the passer to the reciever of the ball for forward passes, ah but what about the momentum rule someone will ask, in Cricket we can assimilate the ball tacking relative to it's speed,  bounce and angle of travel,  it doesn't matter that the ball has stopped because it hits the batsman pads we can still see its forward monentum, then surley the same technology could be adapted to assimilate the passer relative to the travel of the ball including his momentum from the balls release to when it hits the reciever. What do you think?

By the way I believe the NRL 'Bunker' to be better than our system, and considering if we go ahead with televising every game with a VR why not have the same adjudication panel at a central location for each game for continuity and hopefully consistency, instead of a different at each game.

Is this not what the plan is for next year?

[Harry Stottle]

41 minutes ago, sam4731 said:

Is this not what the plan is for next year?

Which Sam?

[sam4731]

2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Which Sam?

why not have the same adjudication panel at a central location for each game for continuity and hopefully consistency, instead of a different at each game.

[Harry Stottle]

44 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Really not sure why you are using a forward pass to bemoan the bunker when they are specifically not allowed to rule on forward passes.

Wasn't really highlighting the bunker or contradicting them Dunny, trying to suggest a way of eliminating very obvious errors we see weekly on refs/forward passes, yesterday's in Brisbane was a Prime example and from a very experienced official positioned not once but twice in the same move to make a better call,  not just me all 3 commentator's said the same and also in the Matty John's programme that followed the game, I should imagine if the result of the game was goverened by that adjudication we would have heard a lot more about it.

[Harry Stottle]

5 minutes ago, sam4731 said:

why not have the same adjudication panel at a central location for each game for continuity and hopefully consistency, instead of a different at each game.

I don't know if that has been decided, eager to learn though.

What about my suggestion for using technology for forward passes? I obviously don't know if it can be done or not, but I do know we need something, there was a time when those in attendance would in unison shout forward and they were in the main correct and the ref would concur, but in those days the ball had to be 'obviously'  thrown backwards, today the 'line or flat pass' opens that up to many more errors from the officials.

[Dunbar]

12 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Wasn't really highlighting the bunker or contradicting them Dunny, trying to suggest a way of eliminating very obvious errors we see weekly on refs/forward passes, yesterday's in Brisbane was a Prime example and from a very experienced official positioned not once but twice in the same move to make a better call,  not just me all 3 commentator's said the same and also in the Matty John's programme that followed the game, I should imagine if the result of the game was goverened by that adjudication we would have heard a lot more about it.

The NRL has been working on ball tracking technology for the identification of forward passes for some time.  I expect it will get official trials very soon.

[Dave T]

Just now, Dunbar said:

The NRL has been working on ball tracking technology for the identification of forward passes for some time.  I expect it will get official trials very soon.

That feels like a whole can of worms will be opened there doesn't it? 

[Harry Stottle]

Just now, Dave T said:

That feels like a whole can of worms will be opened there doesn't it? 

Can it be any worse than the reliance we have on match officials making the call?

[Dunbar]

Just now, Dave T said:

That feels like a whole can of worms will be opened there doesn't it? 

I have a feeling it will be a nightmare. 

My best prediction is we will end up with a game that gets more decisions right and awful to watch.

[LeeF]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

 I was at the game and stood in an advantageous position to see the incident live, I was astounded that the ref questioned the validity of the score for obstruction, the ref was most probably in the same position as I was in relation to longitudinally along the ground but I was higher up and most probably had a better view.

So where do you consider the best camera angles to be?

 

There wasn’t an angle available/ shown from behind the attacking team which showed exactly where contact was.  In real time and from where the referee was I can easily see why he gave it as an obstruction. 

[LeeF]

10 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Can it be any worse than the reliance we have on match officials making the call?

Yes

[LeeF]

32 minutes ago, sam4731 said:

why not have the same adjudication panel at a central location for each game for continuity and hopefully consistency, instead of a different at each game.

It will highly unlikely be the same match officials doing the VR for all 6 matches. Yes the VR be more than likely centrally based but the personnel will be different for each match 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

I have a feeling it will be a nightmare. 

My best prediction is we will end up with a game that gets more decisions right and awful to watch.

I'm not sure that ball tracking technology is the best way to handle forward pass calls. It feels like it's an idea from fans really. 

[Dunbar]

11 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'm not sure that ball tracking technology is the best way to handle forward pass calls. It feels like it's an idea from fans really. 

This article suggests that the NRL has abandoned its review of the in ball tech but may allow the bunker to have a say on forward passes.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/three-metres-forward-but-nrl-has-shelved-plans-for-microchip-technology-20230924-p5e74r.html

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, LeeF said:

There wasn’t an angle available/ shown from behind the attacking team which showed exactly where contact was.  In real time and from where the referee was I can easily see why he gave it as an obstruction. 

Not from I was stood Lee and as I say not far from the ref.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, LeeF said:

Yes

Disagree.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, LeeF said:

It will highly unlikely be the same match officials doing the VR for all 6 matches. Yes the VR be more than likely centrally based but the personnel will be different for each match 

Who said anything about match officials if you mean refs as we have now sharing the duties, isn't it a dedicated panel the bunker utilises.

[bobbruce]

5 hours ago, PEANUT HEAD said:

Next season we can do away with the ref sending it up try no try and  have the ref just award a try and the video ref checks every try like in the nrl.

In the NRL the ref does give his opinion by awarding or not awarding the try. 

[LeeF]

24 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Not from I was stood Lee and as I say not far from the ref.

My opinion. 

[LeeF]

24 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Disagree.

Fair do. Different views that’s all

[LeeF]

21 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Who said anything about match officials if you mean refs as we have now sharing the duties, isn't it a dedicated panel the bunker utilises.

They are match officials who share the duties. That’s what they are called. They referee, touch judges, in goal, 4th official, reserve and video referee hence the job title