IMG Grading System (Many Merged Threads)

[Harry Stottle]

On 13/10/2024 at 00:17, RP London said:

iMG, the RFL and RL comm have been too quite I would have liked a bit more.. but it's not the biggest crime in the world.. 

The article thought was poor and just rehashed old ground with nothing worthwhile to add to the conversation

There would be no need for the article RP if what you say in your first question had taken place with the 3 bodies making themselves available to answer questions from those who may have more inside knowledge than those of us from both sides of the debate on these pages that just speculate on.

Personally speaking, in buisness if a supplier would not be prepared to answer all I required/wanted to know about their commodities, I would think what have they got to hide, they should have the answers to anything that may be posed to them about their product.

[Harry Stottle]

29 minutes ago, Roughyed Rats said:

It can't 'go up noticeably' as it's a 3-year average. Their score last season would have been based on finishing 6th, 7th and 2nd. This year will be 7th, 2nd and play-off winner. Taking into account their play-off results, I reckon they move from 32 (0.4571) to 31 (0.5714) which is an increase of 0.1143.

Yep, a very noticeable increase

[Tommygilf]

40 minutes ago, Roughyed Rats said:

It can't 'go up noticeably' as it's a 3-year average. Their score last season would have been based on finishing 6th, 7th and 2nd. This year will be 7th, 2nd and play-off winner. Taking into account their play-off results, I reckon they move from 32 (0.4571) to 31 (0.5714) which is an increase of 0.1143.

They will go up noticeably going forwards because they have actually jumped more than usual because of 3 clubs being relegated rather than 2. In a sense they get points for being club 24 (at worst), rather than 26 as it could have been, or significantly lower had they not won the playoff.

When we are talking fine margins that is a lot

[Tommygilf]

14 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yep, a very noticeable increase

You've been telling us all this time that clubs would be right to commence legal action for less of an difference. I'd have thought you would appreciate that the little bits matter?

[Roughyed Rats]

36 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

They will go up noticeably going forwards because they have actually jumped more than usual because of 3 clubs being relegated rather than 2. In a sense they get points for being club 24 (at worst), rather than 26 as it could have been, or significantly lower had they not won the playoff.

When we are talking fine margins that is a lot

So going forwards but now now. That's much clearer as opposed to what you claimed in your original post. By the way, there are 13 teams in the Championship next season and assume the scoring will change with the new play-off format.

Edited October 14 by Roughyed Rats

[Tommygilf]

16 minutes ago, Roughyed Rats said:

So going forwards but now now. That's much clearer as opposed to what you claimed in your original post.

Is it?

[Harry Stottle]

56 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

You've been telling us all this time that clubs would be right to commence legal action for less of an difference. I'd have thought you would appreciate that the little bits matter?

I do Tommy, but I only commented on "a noticeable increase" which if Roughyed's calculations are correct  moving from 32nd to 31st as in Hunslets rapid rise up the ladder is not the case.

 But quite rightly, if those fractions of a point mean a club being denied SL status that is a whole different scenario altogether.

 

[phiggins]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

They will go up noticeably going forwards because they have actually jumped more than usual because of 3 clubs being relegated rather than 2. In a sense they get points for being club 24 (at worst), rather than 26 as it could have been, or significantly lower had they not won the playoff.

When we are talking fine margins that is a lot

Will there be a noticeable improvement in how their average position ranks among other clubs, which is then subsequently scored against?

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I do Tommy, but I only commented on "a noticeable increase" which if Roughyed's calculations are correct  moving from 32nd to 31st as in Hunslets rapid rise up the ladder is not the case.

 But quite rightly, if those fractions of a point mean a club being denied SL status that is a whole different scenario altogether.

 

So those fractions only matter when you think they matter otherwise they don't and are really insignificant?

[Tommygilf]

7 minutes ago, phiggins said:

Will there be a noticeable improvement in how their average position ranks among other clubs, which is then subsequently scored against?

I'd expect a net jump of 4 places in a year to have some impact - and that is assuming they finish bottom of the Championship. Though as I did say, the difference in the rest is likely to be negligible. 

[Harry Stottle]

5 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

So those fractions only matter when you think they matter otherwise they don't and are really insignificant?

Honestly yes, I hope they do matter and a challenge to this system is made.

[Roughyed Rats]

2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I'd expect a net jump of 4 places in a year to have some impact - and that is assuming they finish bottom of the Championship. Though as I did say, the difference in the rest is likely to be negligible. 

Based purely on league places (subject to whatever changes in the play-offs), if they finish bottom of the championship (ranked 25th), their 3-year average would be 28.33. To achieve a jump of 4 places (27th average over 3-years) they will have to finish at least 9th (4 teams below them) in the Championship. Not impossible but highly unlikely. 

[Barley Mow]

Does anyone know if there is any impact on the catchment points resulting from Champ/L1 promotion/relegation?

If I remember correctly, the catchment score is calculated based on Local Authority population divided by the number of clubs in that area in SL or Championship.

- Hunslet being promoted means that they and Leeds now divide the Leeds LA population by two (rather than 1 in the indicative figures) - I assume they both still get full catchment points because of Leeds' large population.

- Dewsbury being relegated means that the three Kirklees based clubs now have the population divided by two rather than three - does this move them all past a threshold and improve their points?

- Whitehaven being relegated means there are now no SL/Champ teams in Cumberland LA - Does anyone know how 'Haven and Town's figure is now calculated?

- I assume Swinton's catchment is based on the Trafford LA (Sale) rather than Salford LA (Swinton) and so they will be in the same position as the Cumberland clubs and Salford won't be impacted.

[Roughyed Rats]

3 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

Does anyone know if there is any impact on the catchment points resulting from Champ/L1 promotion/relegation?

If I remember correctly, the catchment score is calculated based on Local Authority population divided by the number of clubs in that area in SL or Championship.

- Hunslet being promoted means that they and Leeds now divide the Leeds LA population by two (rather than 1 in the indicative figures) - I assume they both still get full catchment points because of Leeds' large population.

- Dewsbury being relegated means that the three Kirklees based clubs now have the population divided by two rather than three - does this move them all past a threshold and improve their points?

- Whitehaven being relegated means there are now no SL/Champ teams in Cumberland LA - Does anyone know how 'Haven and Town's figure is now calculated?

- I assume Swinton's catchment is based on the Trafford LA (Sale) rather than Salford LA (Swinton) and so they will be in the same position as the Cumberland clubs and Salford won't be impacted.

It's purely based on catchment area (as per the 2021 cencus) divided by the number of professional clubs in that area. It doesn't change, irrespective of what division you are in.

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Roughyed Rats said:

It's purely based on catchment area (as per the 2021 cencus) divided by the number of professional clubs in that area. It doesn't change, irrespective of what division you are in.

League 1 clubs don't count just Super League and Championship is it not?

[Tommygilf]

13 minutes ago, Roughyed Rats said:

Based purely on league places (subject to whatever changes in the play-offs), if they finish bottom of the championship (ranked 25th), their 3-year average would be 28.33. To achieve a jump of 4 places (27th average over 3-years) they will have to finish at least 9th (4 teams below them) in the Championship. Not impossible but highly unlikely. 

I was referring to a jump in a single years rather than the 4 year average but in any case.

[Barley Mow]

1 minute ago, Roughyed Rats said:

It's purely based on catchment area (as per the 2021 cencus) divided by the number of professional clubs in that area. It doesn't change, irrespective of what division you are in.

Okay - I thought the final version changed it so it was divided by the number of SL & Championship clubs, and the number of L1 clubs wasn't included.

I could be misremembering.

[The Blues Ox]

20 hours ago, Jill Halfpenny fan said:

Looks like Bradford have acknowledged they won't make it this year which is a tad disappointing.  However we still have the Toulouse conundrum to look forward to. If they make it then there's going to be tantrums elsewhere.  If they don't, will they be in the championship next season?  With London's future currently up in the air to lose one club would be unfortunate, to lose two would be careless. Its going to be so exciting.

That is a shame regards Bradford as they could have put the cat amongst the pigeons. As mentioned previously though it looks like they topped out on all their scores in the mocks and they were the only team that it was hard to see where their increase in scores could come from.

its an interesting point you make regards London, if they do drop out will the RFL increase promotion from League 1 as they have said they want equal numbers across the divisions or would it make more sense to drop SL by one and make it 11/11/11? 

[Tommygilf]

16 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Honestly yes, I hope they do matter and a challenge to this system is made.

I never understand being set up for disappointment.

[Dave T]

One thing I absolutely would agree with is that the communication from the sport's leaders is appalling, probably the worst I've ever known in in 40 years of watching.

And I don't mean IMG, they are the third in line really, behind RLCom and the RFL.

When we have questions about what the game is doing in London, it is them who should be speaking up. 

[Tommygilf]

Just now, The Blues Ox said:

That is a shame regards Bradford as they could have put the cat amongst the pigeons. As mentioned previously though it looks like they topped out on all their scores in the mocks and they were the only team that it was hard to see where their increase in scores could come from.

its an interesting point you make regards London, if they do drop out will the RFL increase promotion from League 1 as they have said they want equal numbers across the divisions or would it make more sense to drop SL by one and make it 11/11/11? 

Nobody in Super League is going to willingly give up their place, not whilst the comp can still afford it.

[Roughyed Rats]

4 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

League 1 clubs don't count just Super League and Championship is it not?

Correct but it doesn't change with the division you are in, although I see the added complexity now (my team is the only club in the borough). Wow. This system is even more convoluted than I previously thought.

Edited October 14 by Roughyed Rats

[Barley Mow]

1 minute ago, The Blues Ox said:

That is a shame regards Bradford as they could have put the cat amongst the pigeons. As mentioned previously though it looks like they topped out on all their scores in the mocks and they were the only team that it was hard to see where their increase in scores could come from.

its an interesting point you make regards London, if they do drop out will the RFL increase promotion from League 1 as they have said they want equal numbers across the divisions or would it make more sense to drop SL by one and make it 11/11/11? 

I imagine they'd go 12/12/11 for next year and ask for applications for another L1 club for 2026. 

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Roughyed Rats said:

Correct but it doesn't change with the division you are in.

Pardon my ignorance but that makes no sense to me?

Either it does change, and League 1 clubs don't count in the scoring meaning as described above in Kirklees say the catchment is now to be split between Huddersfield and Batley.

Or it's incorrect and League 1 clubs do count? 

I'm not sure how it works for League 1 clubs getting points for it.

[The Blues Ox]

2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Nobody in Super League is going to willingly give up their place, not whilst the comp can still afford it.

That is where the RFL would need to step in and not give them a choice like they have done on so many things over the years. The more I think about it 11/11/11 makes a lot of sense if we were unfortunate enough to lose London and then they could look to build on it to a point we could get back to 12/12/12. Got to have that equal split though.