Best super league season ever?

[Chrispmartha]

If Hull KR beat Saints tomorrow all the top six teams will be on the same points (i know Wigan have a game in hand but still!)

Not sure Ive known it be so close 10 games in

[Archie Gordon]

8 hours ago, N2022 said:

Maybe that's true about the boost coming mainly in the decisive weeks, but you are comparing that picture with the bigger gates that a team enjoying a successful season will attract.

My point is that if a team is poor the relegation battles will likely pull in bigger crowds than meaningless fixtures in a franchise or no p&r scenario or if effectively relegated from the off like Broncos.

Yes. The counterfactual is what would London-Hull get next week if relegation was a factor? It would be a bigger game. I'm really not sure how anyone could argue otherwise.

[Archie Gordon]

6 hours ago, Chrispmartha said:

If Hull KR beat Saints tomorrow all the top six teams will be on the same points (i know Wigan have a game in hand but still!)

Not sure Ive known it be so close 10 games in

But that is partly an artifact of having 2 teams at the bottom that *everybody* beats.

[gingerjon]

42 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

Yes. The counterfactual is what would London-Hull get next week if relegation was a factor? It would be a bigger game. I'm really not sure how anyone could argue otherwise.

The evidence of every season with relegation is that the drama, thrill and fun of long relegation seasons does not improve attendances for the teams involved in them. You might, possibly, at the very end of the season, with a do-or-die game, get more in. But that's far from always the case.

The game would have more jeopardy, potentially. The game would not be remotely guaranteed to have a higher crowd or be better quality.

[Archie Gordon]

7 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

The evidence of every season with relegation is that the drama, thrill and fun of long relegation seasons does not improve attendances for the teams involved in them. You might, possibly, at the very end of the season, with a do-or-die game, get more in. But that's far from always the case.

The game would have more jeopardy, potentially. The game would not be remotely guaranteed to have a higher crowd or be better quality.

Our views couldn't be further apart on this one. More people - including neutrals - will take an interest in a game with SL status at stake than the same game between 11th and 12th with only a wooden spoon up for grabs.

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, Archie Gordon said:

Our views couldn't be further apart on this one. More people - including neutrals - will take an interest in a game with SL status at stake than the same game between 11th and 12th with only a wooden spoon up for grabs.

That's a bit different to what I was meaning. I was talking about on the day attendance and quality of the game. You are right in the sense of neutrals keeping an eye on it.

Our fundamental difference is that I don't believe every game should have jeopardy nor should a league be structured so that it does.

For example, here, in many ways, is an ideal top set up. Top 5 play off and relegation. And yet for a lot of teams, there will be nothing objectively to play for in the final weeks:

[Archie Gordon]

1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

That's a bit different to what I was meaning. I was talking about on the day attendance and quality of the game. You are right in the sense of neutrals keeping an eye on it.

Our fundamental difference is that I don't believe every game should have jeopardy nor should a league be structured so that it does.

For example, here, in many ways, is an ideal top set up. Top 5 play off and relegation. And yet for a lot of teams, there will be nothing objectively to play for in the final weeks:

To be fair, you've introduced quality of game as a variable. I have no argument on that one - the quality won't change.

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, Archie Gordon said:

To be fair, you've introduced quality of game as a variable. I have no argument on that one - the quality won't change.

Fair. It is often used as a further argument in favour of relegation - that the game's intensity raises the quality (etc).

Anyway, to go back to the starting point, I didn't see any of the last night's games but I am still, broadly, enjoying this season.

[Harry Stottle]

20 hours ago, Click said:

Leigh's model of promotion isn't the best way to do it, it is far from perfect, and Leigh lost lots of money before eventually succeeding. 

Why isn't it the best way to win promotion and stay in SL?

Of course Leigh list money on previous ventures, but it may have escaped you that they ripped up the old method of waiting until the end of season before establishing a team capable of competing in SL, it is called learning from mistakes.

[Harry Stottle]

13 hours ago, Worzel said:

Time for a new strategy.

Isn't that what Mr Beaumont did? Introduced a new strategy instead of waiting till the end of the season to get a squad SL Ready, which seems to be yours and and the pro get rid of P&R er's only argument.

[Harry Stottle]

3 hours ago, gingerjon said:

The evidence of every season with relegation is that the drama, thrill and fun of long relegation seasons does not improve attendances for the teams involved in them. You might, possibly, at the very end of the season, with a do-or-die game, get more in. But that's far from always the case.

Forgive me if I am wrong Ginge, but considering your location I should imagine that your main contact with the game is through the medium of television, if I am correct would you prefer to watch a game that the result has a consequence to it or the result simply does not matter?

It will be interesting to see Sky's reaction to the viewing figures and subsequent subscription sales/closures for such games, I am sure they will monitor them over a couple or 3 seasons, they are the true 'Organ Grinders' who all others will have no option but to dance to their tune.

[N2022]

I get that there are all kinds of arguments for and against P&R and preserved status, but I think sometimes people assume the latter to be better than it is based on the success of franchise sport in the US. If you don't have academies at all clubs, that may eventually widen the gap, because there is no US-style draft with lower teams getting better picks to restore balance to some degree over decades.

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

Forgive me if I am wrong Ginge, but considering your location I should imagine that your main contact with the game is through the medium of television, if I am correct would you prefer to watch a game that the result has a consequence to it or the result simply does not matter?

No, that's fair. I am, by reason of geography, mostly a TV viewing follower now. Hoping to get to see Brighton next weekend though.

My habit has never really changed in the sense that I watch most of the games that are on the TV regardless of what's being played for. This season that has been altered a bit because I will prioritise London's games even though both the season outcome is inevitable and the individual game result is pretty much inevitable.

Although I did miss last night's games.

[Click]

On 04/05/2024 at 10:39, Harry Stottle said:

Why isn't it the best way to win promotion and stay in SL?

Of course Leigh list money on previous ventures, but it may have escaped you that they ripped up the old method of waiting until the end of season before establishing a team capable of competing in SL, it is called learning from mistakes.

It isn't the best way because it is completely unsustainable, what happened the years before you eventually got promoted? Players being sacked, not paid in time, etc. That is the roadmap for Leigh's promotion as well, not just the last season when they finally managed it.

[Harry Stottle]

2 hours ago, Click said:

It isn't the best way because it is completely unsustainable, what happened the years before you eventually got promoted? Players being sacked, not paid in time, etc. That is the roadmap for Leigh's promotion as well, not just the last season when they finally managed it.

What do the previous years matter, if that way of working promotion has been consigned to the waste paper bin for the method that is now paying dividends is working? Leigh are averaging attendances of over 7,200 last season up from 3,000 ish in the Championship and 8K this season that does not look unsustainable does it?

[Click]

12 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

What do the previous years matter, if that way of working promotion has been consigned to the waste paper bin for the method that is now paying dividends is working? Leigh are averaging attendances of over 7,200 last season up from 3,000 ish in the Championship and 8K this season that does not look unsustainable does it?

Congrats, but the previous years still matter, you are saying that the Leigh model is the blueprint, well that also includes the seasons before they finally managed to win promotion, it also includes all the turmoil that was happening before.

And like you said, it was only 3000 attending in the Championship, so it was unsustainable, just as Featherstone found out last year.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Click said:

Congrats, but the previous years still matter, you are saying that the Leigh model is the blueprint, well that also includes the seasons before they finally managed to win promotion, it also includes all the turmoil that was happening before.

And like you said, it was only 3000 attending in the Championship, so it was unsustainable, just as Featherstone found out last year.

You obviously don't recognise progression Click, it wasn't working in the old method of waiting till the end of season to see if you won promotion then started to recruit, Mr Beaumont hatched a plan of investing in the playing roster for SL ready players before the '22 season began whilst still in the Championship and if it failed was prepared to reinvest to achieve his goal. That has nothing whatsoever to do with his previous attempts as for the '17 season, and in '21 he had assembled a squad for the Championship when he did SL a favour despite taking 1/2 funding, I would have walked away at that point and let SL face the wrath of Sky by not being able to fulfil the contract.

The 3000ish in the Championship was a victim of their own success, people could not be bothered turning up to watch foregone conclusions, they were far far to good for that division, I was a season ticket holder but could not be bothered going to some games.