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Bob8 last won the day on April 1 2018

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  1. It has been suggested that the beneficiaries of hard Brexit (which is still not an actual way forward) would be a very small number of extraordinarily wealthy people who would get to tax dodge. For that they would see the country burn. If that is the case, most experts would say it is terrible, but these few people could fund media and a political campaign On the other hand, we are told that there is a specific Brexit in mind that has real world advantages for ordinary people. But, the details of the plan and its advantages are known to all Leavers but are a big secret. To refute the suggestion the this is a big con, with scare stories similar to Popish plots of centuries past... can we be let in on the secret? It really does not seem much to ask.
  2. Quite. It is partly interest versus the best interests of the nation and taking responsibility. Which way have the parties swayed on that axis so far?
  3. Indeed. Do you think most people talking about how tough and resilient they are actually are as tough and up for it as they say? I suspect you are, but it is rare. It might well be worth it. Specifically, and reality based, what would that gain be in your view? I will accept your emotional gratification as a valid answer.
  4. Were Labour to handle Brexit, they would get all the blame and be destroyed.
  5. We are self-governed. One of the first things the self-governing countries you mention did was join the EU. Others such as Ukraine and Serbia did not.
  6. I agree. I suspect few people have an exact realistic view of what they want, so are unlikely to get it. That does not mean they are thick, it means Remain has a default scenario and deal whereas Leave does not. Anyone who thinks that suggests Leavers are thick is being an idiot.
  7. It is a pretty simple question, one that would ordinarily be the start of the discussion. It boils down to what should our borders with the EU look like after Brexit in reality? If you want a hard border with customs control, that is fine. Do you want a hard border with the EU? You could have that, but it will require a huge new infrastructure to be built, delays for goods, a hard border in Northern Ireland and undermining the Good Friday Agreement. Having an open border in Ireland is also a perfectly good answer, but that means accepting EU laws and customs union while no longer being on of the big three controlling them. That is because we would want free movement to the EU. Remainers have answered this question already. Of course, Remaining could also involve restricting immigration from EU nations (as most EU nations do) and blue passports. So, it is the specifics of what you want.
  8. He is clearly talented. There are societies where racism is fine, but eating flesh is hideous. The issue is that being talented at music should not affect the weight your views are given.
  9. I supported John Prescot punching the man back. If someone threw a milkshake at me, I might react forcibly (depends on the day and circumstances). So I do not think it is okay. I do not think it is serious particularly. Certainly not compared to Farage lying about a murder attempt.
  10. There are plenty on both sides who believe their side is not only correct but also more morally right. That means minor assault might be justified by their side, but thuggishness from the other side. Equally, murder, attempted murder, and lying about assasination attempts will be isolated incidents of individuals if from the foodie side, but eliminate claims of moral superiority if from the other side.
  11. That is not true. Norway and Switzerland were cited regularly as examples of success outside the EU by the Leave campaign. I know there are differing views on whether untrue facts are lies or equal opinions, but it is worth mentioning.
  12. That I have always believed in evolution is not because I am clever. I was brought up in the UK, with Catholicism, by parents who accepted evolution. Were I brought up in Georgia, USA by hard line Protestant parents who believed in creationism, I might well have done the same. Explicitly, I am saying that our views are rarely linked to intellect. Supporting Leave or Remain typically about demographics and not intellect. You can claim that I am saying that Leavers are stupid, but you cannot claim it honestly.
  13. There are a few press barons deciding whether to scupper Johnson or not.
  14. I spent two years trying honest discussion. If I have to give up, I am not sure it reflects badly on me or on any moral superiority of Leave.
  15. Yes. Leavers are no less intelligent than Remainers. Stop making things up. I do not think creationists are stupider than evolutionists. Few people understand evolution to any great extent, it is a question of whom they trust and demographics. That I supported Remain was predictable by my background rather than me undertaking a logical analysis. If we had left, it had been really simple and we were happier and more prosperous than ever, I would have to admit to being mistaken. Better that than conspiracy and scapegoating. You are feigning outrage at being called stupid, which is dishonest. You are also outraged at being called dishonest, which is ironic.
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