The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[Dave T]

I agree, to remove 2 SL clubs this coming season and another four SL clubs in a year and a half to play outside of the Elite could not be more "anticlimatic" but apparently attendances will go through the roof and all RL clubs across the land will "grow".

 

No evidence at all for any of that, so the question remains posed "I still honestly don't see why the RFL are pushing so hard for 3x8". If one can't see the answer amongst all the press releases and joyous up front opinions amongst the P & R brigade then maybe something is going on in the background?

 

you say there is no evidence, but I'd argue that there is.

 

Without going through a ream of stats (I have to do a little work today ) it is probably fair to say that the games between the better teams get the better crowds. Each season will have more games between the better teams, therefore it is probably fair to assume that the crowds will be better at many of the top 8 clubs.

 

At Warrington, I would be surprised if the home attendances are not boosted by replacing games against London and Castleford with additional games against Wigan, Leeds, Saints, Hull etc in the latter stages of the season.

 

You would also reasonably expect the top 4 teams from the Championship to see a boost in their crowds in playoffs for SL, particularly when they are playing against the likes of Cas, Hull KR, Bradford etc - all used as examples based on current form. We saw when Wakefield, Hull and Cas were in the lower division that they returned some pretty good crowds.

 

The area where you may see drops is the home crowds of the struggling 4 clubs in SL - but tbh, that is tough and I expect they would hold up relatively well against the benefits seen elsewhere.

 

Now, I don't have time to go through the stats, but the RFL and advisors probably will have done so already.

 

I do have concerns, whichever solution we now pick will see a large section of people unhappy, and knowing RL fans, they would rather moan about the solution than actually go with it in good faith and try and make it a success even if they didn;t vote for it. That worries me massively.

[Dave T]

1 - Mr. Sadler suggests "The proposal will see full time squads against part time squads in the middle tier of eight. It will be amazing if we see any genuine movement of clubs in those circumstances".

 

2 - I don't see anyone fighting for their life, I see a structural change that creates a new 8 club Championship and ejects all the dual registration 600 crowd clubs to a third tier.

 

3 - Sure there may be a club that manages to make the top four (Fev) and get in the Superleague for the opening part of the consequent Superleague season, but will they then make the top 8? I think not.

 

4 - Many say that P & R is needed to refresh the top division. That is the top eight and given HKR were bottom of that and Bradford top last year of the next 6 that principle will  apply. Clubs will be able to gain year on year promotion to the eight club Superleague and maybe stay there.

 

It's just that this principle will mainly apply to existing SL clubs refreshing the new eight club SL.

 

2x12=2x8 will not IMVHO enable existing championship clubs any real permanent access to Superleague, it will however keep the wolf from the door

1 - I'm not overly bothered what Martyn Sadler's view is of this, it is of no concern to me. I'd like to see the funding proposals before writing the Championship clubs off. Some of the SL clubs have hardly been impressive in recent years.

 

2 - I think this is where it is being positioned wrong. The split is to create three playoffs. 

 

3 - They don't need to. They will have started the season in Super League. They will still be in Super League until they are relegated out of it at the end of the season by finishing in the bottom 4 of the playoff. 

 

4 - The top 8 is not the top division. The 12 that start the year in Super League is the top division. There is then a 7 round playoff instead of the current 4 round playoff.

[sweaty craiq]

Mr. Sadler suggests "The proposal will see full time squads against part time squads in the middle tier of eight. It will be amazing if we see any genuine movement of clubs in those circumstances".

 

I don't see anyone fighting for their life, I see a structural change that creates a new 8 club Championship and ejects all the dual registration 600 crowd clubs to a third tier.

 

Sure there may be a club that manages to make the top four (Fev) and get in the Superleague for the opening part of the consequent Superleague season, but will they then make the top 8? I think not.

 

Many say that P & R is needed to refresh the top division. That is the top eight and given HKR were bottom of that and Bradford top last year of the next 6 that principle will  apply. Clubs will be able to gain year on year promotion to the eight club Superleague and maybe stay there.

 

It's just that this principle will mainly apply to existing SL clubs refreshing the new eight club SL.

 

2x12=2x8 will not IMVHO enable existing championship clubs any real permanent access to Superleague, it will however keep the wolf from the door

 

1. If the original funding is correct then it is highly unlikely it will be FT V PT in the mid 8, all clubs should be FT ie the 2 from this years championship GF assuming its Fev, Fax, Leigh or Sheffield, the 2 who drop this year - assuming they make the top 4 and the bottom 4 from SL1 2015 who make up the eight. Martyn must have had a heavy Xmas

 

2. Only two of the Championship big four will probably make the mid eight

 

3. A money man could invest his club into SL by hitting mid eight then top four

[The Parksider]

The top 8 is not the top division. The 12 that start the year in Super League is the top division. There is then a 7 round playoff.

So after the season is two thirds of the way through, how would the newspapers report the Superleague table? Would they report the 23 game league as over?

Are the Superleague clubs playing "off" initially for points in a new eight club seven fixture table?? Who goes to Old trafford? Top two clubs in the 8 club table??

At that point do we have 4 tables? Superleague Superleague/Championship and championship - and do we then have championship 1, or is it Superleague, Championship, championship one and championship two in which case the top division is the eight?

Serious question here, just how would it work/look anyone??

[Dave T]

So after the season is two thirds of the way through, how would the newspapers report the Superleague table? Would they report the 23 game league as over?

Are the Superleague clubs playing "off" initially for points in a new eight club seven fixture table?? Who goes to Old trafford? Top two clubs in the 8 club table??

At that point do we have 4 tables? Superleague Superleague/Championship and championship - and do we then have championship 1, or is it Superleague, Championship, championship one and championship two in which case the top division is the eight?

Serious question here, just how would it work/look anyone??

Naturally I don't know the answer to many of these questions.

 

My thoughts are that after Round 23 that table has pretty much gone. A little like the current structure, the table becomes history once the playoffs start.

 

It is easy to be obtuse to try and find holes, but in reality are any of the questions that difficult?

 

Personally I'd go with branding similar to:

Super League Finals Series 

RFL Playoffs (or maybe even the Promotion Playoffs)

Northern Rail Cup

Edited January 13, 2014 by Dave T

[The Parksider]

If the original funding is correct then it is highly unlikely it will be FT V PT in the mid 8all clubs should be FT.

I Still cannot get my head around it Craiq. We've operate 14 full time professional clubs and the result is the game goes into debt to the tune of £68,000,000 and rising.

We then twiddle the structure around and hey presto we can now run 16 professional clubs?

How does that work?

[sweaty craiq]

So after the season is two thirds of the way through, how would the newspapers report the Superleague table? Would they report the 23 game league as over?

Are the Superleague clubs playing "off" initially for points in a new eight club seven fixture table?? Who goes to Old trafford? Top two clubs in the 8 club table??

At that point do we have 4 tables? Superleague Superleague/Championship and championship - and do we then have championship 1, or is it Superleague, Championship, championship one and championship two in which case the top division is the eight?

Serious question here, just how would it work/look anyone??

 

Aren't we all awaiting the decisions that will provide the answers? The only thing that seems to have been discussed openly is the mid eight, which lets face it away from the battle for SL Champions it will be the most important comp with the most to play for, the relegation battle in tier 3 should be a good scrap too

[sweaty craiq]

I Still cannot get my head around it Craiq. We've operate 14 full time professional clubs and the result is the game goes into debt to the tune of £68,000,000 and rising.

We then twiddle the structure around and hey presto we can now run 16 professional clubs?

How does that work?

 

If clubs cant run with their debt and manage their business then they shouldn't be full time in any structure Parky, surely.

 

The same as in business, the winners change as dinosaurs die and youngsters take over. Running a failing business should never be rewarded

[The Parksider]

My thoughts are that after Round 23 that table has pretty much gone. A little like the current structure, the table becomes history once the playoffs start.

 

It is easy to be obtuse to try and find holes, but in reality are any of the questions that difficult?

Sorry Dave, I'm not trying to be obtuse at all. I'm discussing the fine detail and asking for general opinion. My worry is that as the Rugby league season get's into the final stages we will finish the league season early and all that will be forgotten, to change to another "late" league season and have four clear divisions with league tables?.

There's the eight club elite...........

And there's a league below that with four relegated SL clubs in it who have had a bad season. the idea is people will look at that and flock to games.

[Dave T]

Sorry Dave, I'm not trying to be obtuse at all. I'm discussing the fine detail and asking for general opinion. My worry is that as the Rugby league season get's into the final stages we will finish the league season early and all that will be forgotten, to change to another "late" league season and have four clear divisions with league tables?.

There's the eight club elite...........

And there's a league below that with four relegated SL clubs in it who have had a bad season. the idea is people will look at that and flock to games.

No, the idea is that people will still see the regular season as the 23 weekly rounds (SL used to consist of 23 rounds). At the moment if we are honest all the regular season does at the moment is count as a qualifier and give one team a nice shiny plate. That is all still there.

 

The main difference is that instead of the playoffs being a knockout and having to be explained with a flow chart it will go into a group stage. Using different branding can easily highlight that this is the end of season playoffs rather than the regular season.

 

The four clubs do not get relegated after Rd 23. They are knocked out, as they would be currently after Rd 28. Instead of going putting their feet up, they have to enter a playoff to decide what division they would be in the following season.

 

Using trophies after Rd 23 is a clear way of drawing the line in the sand and stating that the Regular season is important and the next phase is the playoffs.

[The Parksider]

If clubs cant run with their debt and manage their business then they shouldn't be full time in any structure Parky, surely.

I agree with that.

So if the debt in Superleague was £68,000,000 amongst the bottom say 8 SL clubs then none of them should be operating a full time professional squad, but slashing wage bills.

Equally if the top two championship clubs cannot afford to run a full time professional squad then they should stay part time.

I'm happy the idea that only clubs who can afford to "run a full time professional squad" do so.

Where we differ is you count 20 of them and I can't get past about 8.....

[The Parksider]

The four clubs do not get relegated after Rd 23. They are knocked out, as they would be currently after Rd 28. Instead of going putting their feet up, they have to enter a playoff to decide what division they would be in the following season.

Thanks for explaining that, I get it.

The question remains wether the second tier play off games will attract the fans.

[Dave T]

I agree with that.

So if the debt in Superleague was £68,000,000 amongst the bottom say 8 SL clubs then none of them should be operating a full time professional squad, but slashing wage bills.

Equally if the top two championship clubs cannot afford to run a full time professional squad then they should stay part time.

I'm happy the idea that only clubs who can afford to "run a full time professional squad" do so.

Where we differ is you count 20 of them and I can't get past about 8.....

To compete in the top 4 you probably need far more investment than in the middle. Not every club needs this £6m turnover that you keep quoting for example.

 

Looking at the Premier League (not the best example) but the top spenders in that division spend £202m in salaries, yet a club like Everton are in there and contributing to the comp on £63m salaries.

 

Not everybody needs to spend the same amount - indeed if it is true that the likes of London have regularly spent to the cap then I would say they have wasted a fortune.

 

If you have visions of being SL Champions, then I expect you would need to be regularly spending the full cap - if your short term goal is progression from the Championship, this may be possible on a salary bill of £1m. For the first few years you may have to play in the P&R Playoffs to justify your position in SL, but then that is the exciting on-field action that people want isn't it?

 

You regularly quote supporters of your view, what did you make of the Cas bloke's quotes about being boring and them as a club going through the motions?

[Dave T]

Thanks for explaining that, I get it.

The question remains wether the second tier play off games will attract the fans.

As opposed to what?

 

The top 8 games will attract higher crowds than Top 8 v Bottom 4 (my assumption)

 

The 2nd tier playoffs should see bigger crowds for Championship clubs games at home versus SL opposition (based on Cup games).

The challenge may be for the likes of Cas or Bradford, but this brings us back to the fact that these games should be part of a season ticket package anyway.

[Griff]

As opposed to what?

 

The top 8 games will attract higher crowds than Top 8 v Bottom 4 (my assumption)

 

That'll drive a bigger wedge between eighth and ninth.

[The Parksider]

1. To compete in the top 4 you probably need far more investment than in the middle. Not every club needs this £6m turnover that you keep quoting for example.

 

You regularly quote supporters of your view, what did you make of the Cas bloke's quotes about being boring and them as a club going through the motions?

 

1. Indeed

 

2. Thanks for your very interesting views will get back to you sir...

[redjonn]

With respect to question above on points from first stage league in the x2 into x3 structure:

 

I thought from the documents that the proposal was that for the super8 top tier play-off league the points carried over from the 23 game round.   

 

The second tier league obviously starts with zero points.

[Dave T]

That'll drive a bigger wedge between eighth and ninth.

Possibly, although as per our previous conversation (which appears to have been deleted!) - these games should count as part of a season ticket so whilst there will be a difference, it is not as though the bottom 4's crowds will fall off a cliff.

 

The alternative appears to be to have good versus rubbish just to keep the gap closer as the crowds will be more similar. I prefer to stretch things and it is up to the lower teams to get stronger. Things like a modest salary cap should mean that it should be within all of our clubs reach to make the top of SL. If not, then with all due respect you are not a big enough club and you will find your level in the more fluid structure.

[Dave T]

With respect to question above on points from first stage league in the x2 into x3 structure:

 

I thought from the documents that the proposal was that for the super8 top tier play-off league the points carried over from the 23 game round.   

 

The second tier league obviously starts with zero points.

Yes, that sounds familiar, I think you are right. 

[Griff]

With respect to question above on points from first stage league in the x2 into x3 structure:

 

I thought from the documents that the proposal was that for the super8 top tier play-off league the points carried over from the 23 game round.   

 

The second tier league obviously starts with zero points.

 

That's why I'm struggling to see the first and third Eights as play-offs.

[Griff]

Possibly, although as per our previous conversation (which appears to have been deleted!) - these games should count as part of a season ticket so whilst there will be a difference, it is not as though the bottom 4's crowds will fall off a cliff.

 

Well, that remains to be seen.

[yipyee]

Will Magic weekend be moved to august time? If so how will that impact on CC final?

 

Also if thats the last round of the regular season would it be fair to play a club for a third time to play them again a fourth, fith and possibly sixth time in one season????

 

Also if magic is the end of regular season before the split seeing as the games are after each other it would therefore mean clubs will know what they have to do before playing....or what was an important game could be ruined by previous results??

[Griff]

Will Magic weekend be moved to august time? If so how will that impact on CC final?

 

Also if thats the last round of the regular season would it be fair to play a club for a third time to play them again a fourth, fith and possibly sixth time in one season????

 

Also if magic is the end of regular season before the split seeing as the games are after each other it would therefore mean clubs will know what they have to do before playing....or what was an important game could be ruined by previous results??

 

Has anyone said it'll be the last round of the "regular season" ?  There's no reason why it should be.  It isn't now and I see no reason to change.

[Dave T]

Has anyone said it'll be the last round of the "regular season" ?  There's no reason why it should be.  It isn't now and I see no reason to change.

Yep, first mention I've seen of that. 

[The Parksider]

You regularly quote supporters of your view, what did you make of the Cas bloke's quotes about being boring and them as a club going through the motions?

I found his opinion interesting but he didn't enlarge on it. Castleford used to compete for trophies but in the Superleague age Cas have had two relegations. Nahaboo was going to revitalise them but left for a smaller rival. Glasshoughton was going to be the saviour of the club but that now seems a pipe dream.

I think they are left going through the motions because their Chairman has said no more from him, apparently other directors have put in and may want that back if they go down (according to Mr. Sadler) in which case there may be no club.

Steve Ferres also came out to explain wear, tear, age and vandalism was making the ground a millstone around their neck and was costing a fortune. IIRC he actually said the club could not compete because the ground could not accomodate the income streams they needed.

Their crowds have dropped off a bit anyway so more gloom there. IIRC they had an appalling crowd for the Huddersfield game last year.

Then there's the question of them being a selling club. OK years ago they sold star players to Hull FC for their early eighties revival. Now they don't just sell stars, they sell their best young lads before they even get established in the side.

My view is the bloke is probably well fed up and bored with it all, but my question of him would be would getting relegated again cheer him up? Would this rejuvinate crowds at Wheldon Road because I really don't think so.......

Maybe he's smart enough to realise that 2x12=3x8 actually allows Cas a get out. They can drop a level, cut down the costs, and enjoy some tussles with Fev Sheffield, Halifax and Wakey.

IMVHO 2x12=2x8 isn't about anything other than allowing struggling SL clubs to cut costs and buy time whilst the rich men come. The trick to keeping this guys interest will be to ensure Cas are in the 4 that go back up every year. The minute they slip up (maybe to Fev) and lose their full SKY funding could be a disaster.

Edited January 13, 2014 by The Parksider