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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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 That's a loss of 98,818 fans from just the knock-out cup rounds involving Wigan..   Or rather, a loss of gross revenue from the sale of tickets.  I wonder how that translated into net revenue...given the poor financial state of most clubs at the time, maybe they we e just incurring more losses.

 

Might be interesting to look at clubs net revenues in those "golden" days compared with now.

 

That would be a very worthwhile exercise if all those revenue figures were widely known and available for comparative purposes. Unfortunately, all we have are attendance figures. 

 

My contention is that any increase in attendances during Super League is more than likely offset to a significant degree by the loss of attendances from all cup competitions in existence prior to Super League, a loss which I'd estimate at between 300K and 400K when comparing seasons 1991/92 to 2012.

 

Those cup attendance losses were also walk-up attendances of which we'll probably never see the likes of again. They've been replaced by discounted season ticket holders who are averse to attending any other games where they actually have to pay.

Edited by Pete M
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That would be a very worthwhile exercise if all those revenue figures were widely known and available for comparative purposes. Unfortunately, all we have are attendance figures. 

 

My contention is that any increase in attendances during Super League is more than likely offset to a significant degree by the loss of attendances from all cup competitions in existence prior to Super League, a loss which I'd estimate at between 300K and 400K when comparing seasons 1991/92 to 2012.

 

Those cup attendance losses were also walk-up attendances of which we'll probably never see the likes of again. They've been replaced by discounted season ticket holders who are averse to attending any other games where they actually have to pay.

 

 

Regarding your second paragraph....The figure may or may not be correct. But surely it is conjecture that any decline in cup competitions, if decline, is a result of going Super League. 

 

OK I can see the conjecture that more prevalent use of season tickets can impact walk-up gates for competitions that the season ticket doesn't apply to.   However, doesn't that also give an indication of what supporters think of the worth of attending those games.

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You're in the top 5 for volume of posts on this thread. No prizes for guessing who's made the most though :biggrin:

 

So what crime has been committed/rule broken then? Pray tell?

 

As for the comparisons of the top 4 CC clubs and the bottom 4 SL clubs there's a year to go yet and I note your prediction that nobody may ever go up, but pressure is again on the SL clubs not to be cut adrift, and the top eight will be happy to raid the bottom four for players. Remove the whipping boys and someone ends up in their place. Is your prediction based on salary cap differentials??

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That would be a very worthwhile exercise if all those revenue figures were widely known and available for comparative purposes. Unfortunately, all we have are attendance figures. 

 

A massive point. they may have flogged the players into 45 games (Wigan) and 42 (Leeds) in 1994/5 but you cant do that now. It's a professional RL business and business is about profit - you can turn over all the fans and players you want but if there's a big financial loss at the end of it then what's the point?

 

Besides as Derwent may agree we don't have to chase small fry sponsors in sideshows now a well tailored Superleague can attract £200,000,000 all in one go. 

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So what crime has been committed/rule broken then? Pray tell?

 

As for the comparisons of the top 4 CC clubs and the bottom 4 SL clubs there's a year to go yet and I note your prediction that nobody may ever go up, but pressure is again on the SL clubs not to be cut adrift, and the top eight will be happy to raid the bottom four for players. Remove the whipping boys and someone ends up in their place. Is your prediction based on salary cap differentials??

If we get 1 new club into SL from the middle group of 8 every year, or at least every couple of years, and we get close games with decent crowds it promises to be a cracking competition. Salary cap differential might be the decider 75% of the time, but injuries will also have a great bearing, one of the reasons why Fev & Sheffield are not doing as well as in previous years, regardless of off-field matters. Big money signings can't win games for you from the treatment table.   

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If we get 1 new club into SL from the middle group of 8 every year, or at least every couple of years, and we get close games with decent crowds it promises to be a cracking competition. Salary cap differential might be the decider 75% of the time, but injuries will also have a great bearing, one of the reasons why Fev & Sheffield are not doing as well as in previous years, regardless of off-field matters. Big money signings can't win games for you from the treatment table.

Which clubs do you think the new club will emerge from?

What in your view will be their chances of them being a power in the game, attracting a large audience and raising the sport's profile

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As for the comparisons of the top 4 CC clubs and the bottom 4 SL clubs there's a year to go yet and I note your prediction that nobody may ever go up, but pressure is again on the SL clubs not to be cut adrift, and the top eight will be happy to raid the bottom four for players. Remove the whipping boys and someone ends up in their place. Is your prediction based on salary cap differentials??

 

There's a whole host of variables which theoretically should always give the 4 SL clubs in the middle 8 an advantage. The salary cap is obviously a key one but it is in conjunction with other factors. SL clubs by implication have more income which enables them to be full time clubs. Not just full time playing squads but full time clubs with the requisite back-room personnel and facilities (have you seen how many people Wigan employ as support staff to their players for example). The likes of Leigh and Fev may have full time players but will they be full time clubs - there's a difference. There's also the issue of professionalism - putting someone who has been a part time player onto a full time contract does not necessarily make them "professional".

 

Spending the full salary cap is obviously a key factor in attracting better players but it doesn't always work out that way. I'd suggest that this season Cas are spending much less than Hull, but look at how their respective seasons have gone. Its not an exact science. The one thing that the 4 Championship clubs might have in their favour is confidence and momentum - they might be going into the middle 8 brimming with it after a succession of wins while the 4 SL clubs may be dispirited and on notable losing runs.

 

In theory, the bottom clubs in SL next season should be stronger teams than those this year due to the reduction in number of clubs. Two full squads worth of players won't be required across the board next season which means theoretically the 50 or so weakest players currently in SL would be jettisoned and thus the quality should go up. Might not work like that in reality but in theory it should.

 

Overall I'd tend to side with the theory that the only real chance of a Championship side going up is via the 4th v 5th play off match.

I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally

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Regarding your second paragraph....The figure may or may not be correct. But surely it is conjecture that any decline in cup competitions, if decline, is a result of going Super League. 

 

Based on the cup attendance losses which I highlighted per club, that figure already amounted to over 300K. Clubs outside Division One in 1991/92 also produced cup attendances which would be unheard of today. For example, Workington recorded home attendances of 5,298 in the Challenge Cup and 3,499 in the Lancashire Cup, Oldham 5,814 in the Regal Trophy, Batley 3,089 in the Yorkshire Cup, Hunslet 3,182 in the Challenge Cup, Sheffield 3,227 in the Challenge Cup, Dewsbury 3,460 in the Challenge Cup, Hudds 4,799 in the Yorkshire Cup and 4,239 in the Regal Trophy, Bramley 3,484 in the Challenge Cup, Barrow 3,414 in the Challenge Cup. Swinton who were Division 1 but finished bottom and relegated in 1991/92 still recorded home cup attendances of 4,676 in the Challenge Cup and 3,285 in the Lancashire Cup. Estimating an aggregate attendance loss from cup games in the region of between 300K and 400K is therefore a not unreasonable estimation.

 

How can the decline in cup competitions and subsequent loss of associated cup attendances be down to anything else other than Super League?

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Based on the cup attendance losses which I highlighted per club, that figure already amounted to over 300K. Clubs outside Division One in 1991/92 also produced cup attendances which would be unheard of today. For example, Workington recorded home attendances of 5,298 in the Challenge Cup and 3,499 in the Lancashire Cup, Oldham 5,814 in the Regal Trophy, Batley 3,089 in the Yorkshire Cup, Hunslet 3,182 in the Challenge Cup, Sheffield 3,227 in the Challenge Cup, Dewsbury 3,460 in the Challenge Cup, Hudds 4,799 in the Yorkshire Cup and 4,239 in the Regal Trophy, Bramley 3,484 in the Challenge Cup, Barrow 3,414 in the Challenge Cup. Swinton who were Division 1 but finished bottom and relegated in 1991/92 still recorded home cup attendances of 4,676 in the Challenge Cup and 3,285 in the Lancashire Cup. Estimating an aggregate attendance loss from cup games in the region of between 300K and 400K is therefore a not unreasonable estimation.

How can the decline in cup competitions and subsequent loss of associated cup attendances be down to anything else other than Super League?

The county cups were abolished in 1993 before SL. The drive for abandonment came from the clubs, particularly the more successful ones because of the way it crowded the season and because of a decline in interest

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The county cups were abolished in 1993 before SL. The drive for abandonment came from the clubs, particularly the more successful ones because of the way it crowded the season and because of a decline in interest

 

That's interesting because during the last season of the Lancashire Cup in 1993, the final itself attracted an attendance of 20,534. St Helens also attracted 12,573 in the 2nd Round against Widnes and 9,289 against Salford. 

 

Super League play-off attendances these days would struggle to match those figures. Challenge Cup attendances for similar fixtures today would command even less.

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That's interesting because during the last season of the Lancashire Cup in 1993, the final itself attracted an attendance of 20,534. St Helens also attracted 12,573 in the 2nd Round against Widnes and 9,289 against Salford.

Super League play-off attendances these days would struggle to match those figures. Challenge Cup attendances for similar fixtures today would command even less.

I'm sure they did but the particular doesn't illustrate the general

And anyway the comps were discontinued in 1993

This was before the inception of SL

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I'm sure they did but the particular doesn't illustrate the general

 

The general often fails to illustrate the particular, in particular the huge losses in cup attendances since the advent of Super League.

 

Any attendance comparison worth it's salt ought to include them.

 

I was more than pleased to oblige on this occasion.

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The general often fails to illustrate the particular, in particular the huge losses in cup attendances since the advent of Super League.

Any attendance comparison worth it's salt ought to include them.

I was more than pleased to oblige on this occasion.

It did ought to include them, but it should include all the others as well

Yet again the county cups were abolished well before the advent of SL. If you are making a general point, which you appear to be doing, then your information should be apposite to it

But anyway are you advocating the reintroduction of the county cups and the regal/john player trophy? I'd be interested to see how you would go About it.

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso

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It did ought to include them, but it should include all the others as well

Yet again the county cups were abolished well before the advent of SL. If you are making a general point, which you appear to be doing, then your information should be apposite to it.

 

When figures are bandied about claiming attendances were 45% better than in 1991/92, it helps to apply some perspective by including cup attendances which were in the region of between 300k-400k more than in 2012. I'm pleased you agree they ought to be included and would also agree that attendances from the lower divisions should also be included for comparisons sake. Unfortunately, I don't have those figures. Taking them all into account however, I suspect there's not a great deal of difference between the 2012 gross attendance figures and 1991/92 gross figures for all league and cup games throughout all divisions.

 

The County Cups were abolished before the advent of Super League. However, the Regal Trophy and Premiership Trophy were not and both were direct casualties of Super League. If you are making a general point about cup competitions not being affected by the advent of Super League, which you appear to be doing, then the information you provide ought to include all cup competitions. I'll assume your omissions were an oversight rather than deliberate.

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Which clubs do you think the new club will emerge from?

What in your view will be their chances of them being a power in the game, attracting a large audience and raising the sport's profile

Anybodies guess? As a fan of the Championship I have realised that you can't buy success too easily, and the club with the best coach, best players, and highest wages bill doesn't always win, especially in knock-out competitions. Wakefield's successes over recent weeks, and Castleford's form this season has proved that, but as I said previously, injuries could play a major part. With Featherstone more likely to adopt a common sense approach now a certain person has left the club, I would expect Leigh and Fax to be forerunners, but I hope they don't fall flat on their faces trying too hard.

With regard to their chances of being a power in the game I feel they would be similar to most clubs outside the top 6, unable to attract crowds near or above 10K without regular successes, and if they ever achieve regular success then someone else will go on the slide. I don't know the geography around Leigh and its people but I know Calderdale almost as well as I know the WMDC area because of family connections, and I feel its people will only support a successful side. Basically, they would raise the sports profile about as much as the current clubs in the lower half of the table, and I can't see any way you can change that without throwing money into expansion projects doomed to fail unless the Big4/5 were willing to step aside and let expansion clubs have a financial and salary cap advantage so they might actually win something.   

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When figures are bandied about claiming attendances were 45% better than in 1991/92, it helps to apply some perspective by including cup attendances which were in the region of between 300k-400k more than in 2012. I'm pleased you agree they ought to be included and would also agree that attendances from the lower divisions should also be included for comparisons sake. Unfortunately, I don't have those figures. Taking them all into account however, I suspect there's not a great deal of difference between the 2012 gross attendance figures and 1991/92 gross figures for all league and cup games throughout all divisions.

The County Cups were abolished before the advent of Super League. However, the Regal Trophy and Premiership Trophy were not and both were direct casualties of Super League. If you are making a general point about cup competitions not being affected by the advent of Super League, which you appear to be doing, then the information you provide ought to include all cup competitions. I'll assume your omissions were an oversight rather than deliberate.

Please don't put words into my mouth. I said no such thing

You produced two attendance figures and said that this proved what a great thing the county cups were . So if I produced two really bad figures, would that prove that the county cups were a bad idea? No.

You have repeatedly said that these competitions were axed because of the advent of super league. Well that is clearly untrue since as I've pointed out more than once, one of them was abolished in 1993 two years before SL.

You cannot associate knock out competitions directly with league competitions.

A team could disappear from a comp after one game

A team could play all its games away from home

A team could play Opposition that was not its peer on or off the field.

The Premiership Trophy was replaced by he championship playoffs a much superior concept,

The regal trophy was abolished with the advent of super league, but it is arguable that it's days were numbered because of its association with cigarette smoking.

Would you have the premierships as well as the play offs?

Would you have the county cups when clubs from all over the country and beyond play pro rugby league?

Well you couldn't have a tobacco sponsored competition if you wanted to, so would you introduce another knock out competition?

What actually do you want?

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Anybodies guess? As a fan of the Championship I have realised that you can't buy success too easily, and the club with the best coach, best players, and highest wages bill doesn't always win, especially in knock-out competitions. Wakefield's successes over recent weeks, and Castleford's form this season has proved that, but as I said previously, injuries could play a major part. With Featherstone more likely to adopt a common sense approach now a certain person has left the club, I would expect Leigh and Fax to be forerunners, but I hope they don't fall flat on their faces trying too hard.

With regard to their chances of being a power in the game I feel they would be similar to most clubs outside the top 6, unable to attract crowds near or above 10K without regular successes, and if they ever achieve regular success then someone else will go on the slide. I don't know the geography around Leigh and its people but I know Calderdale almost as well as I know the WMDC area because of family connections, and I feel its people will only support a successful side. Basically, they would raise the sports profile about as much as the current clubs in the lower half of the table, and I can't see any way you can change that without throwing money into expansion projects doomed to fail unless the Big4/5 were willing to step aside and let expansion clubs have a financial and salary cap advantage so they might actually win something.

I think 'being as good as the clubs outside the top six' is in itself wishful thinking, and- please don't take this the wrong way completely unacceptable as an ambition .

The competition needs to grow and become stronger, not have more foot soldiers . Look at it another way. Two clubs with huge potential one way or another have been ejected . Is there a club outside SL with more potential than either if them. Look at the clubs outside the top six. I would suggest they all have huge potential for growth. Is there a club or clubs outside SL with more than for instance Salford?

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Just been thinking about the "7nth" fixture for each club in the middle 8's. If the 2nd div club are not given the vital home game, how about there being an on-the-road game at a neutral venue in a development area for the second div club? So in Leigh's case it could be Bolton

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Just been thinking about the "7nth" fixture for each club in the middle 8's. If the 2nd div club are not given the vital home game, how about there being an on-the-road game at a neutral venue in a development area for the second div club? So in Leigh's case it could be Bolton

Pushing the boundaries a bit too far there chief

I mean there's on the road and on the road and that's just too ambitious

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I think 'being as good as the clubs outside the top six' is in itself wishful thinking, and- please don't take this the wrong way completely unacceptable as an ambition .

The competition needs to grow and become stronger, not have more foot soldiers . Look at it another way. Two clubs with huge potential one way or another have been ejected . Is there a club outside SL with more potential than either if them. Look at the clubs outside the top six. I would suggest they all have huge potential for growth. Is there a club or clubs outside SL with more than for instance Salford?

I get your point Chris, but I believe that until the competition does grow and become stronger we need to hold what we have. Bradford will be back, and the experience of the Championship will do them good, and London will be back if people want it, but the Championship needs to be stronger, with a higher profile and TV exposure to ensure that kids keep playing the game in these areas. The game outside Super League will keep on going backwards without hope of promotion. With regards to Salford, it remains to be seen whether success on the field, which Dr.Koukash promises, results in big gates, or whether he would have got more through the turnstiles at Halifax?

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